2011.07.11 07:00 - Insubordination to the Dark Side

The Guardian for this meeting was Eden Haiku. The comments are by Eden Haiku.

 

Many guardians will be in vacation

 

Eden Haiku: hello Dash ;-)

Dash Earthboy: hey Eden :)

Dash Earthboy: hey Eliza

Eden Haiku: How are you today?

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eden, Hi Dash....

Eden Haiku: Good morning Eliza;-)

Eliza Madrigal: you're in scarecrow pose for me Eden...

Eliza Madrigal: Oh, there :)

Eden Haiku: I was, sorry ;-)

Eliza Madrigal: wow, lovely outfit... interesting combinations

Dash Earthboy: that could be a interesting job: scarecrow :)

Eden Haiku: Thanks Eliza ;-)

Eden Haiku: hehe Dash ;-)

Dash Earthboy: *remembers museum guard job

Eden Haiku: smiles

Eden Haiku: I find kind of worrisome all the open slots for July....

Dash Earthboy: for sessions?

Eden Haiku: Hopefully, people will jump in in time....

Dash Earthboy: yah

Eden Haiku: Yes, many guardians will be on vacation.

Eliza Madrigal: yes, hopefully should be fine. the 1ams are most crucial as it seems sometimes just one or two attending

Eden Haiku: If I ever wake up at 4 am, I might jump in...

Eliza Madrigal: in the afternoon, often someone is there... and if at least someone is there, then the logs can be retrieved

Eliza Madrigal: :)) Eden

Dash Earthboy: been there Eden :)

 

Creative writing and taking notes styles

 

Eliza Madrigal: if you are up at 4am you will probably be having a surge of creative writing

Eden Haiku: True Eliza, it's going so well these days!

Dash Earthboy: great!

Eliza Madrigal: very happy to hear that!

Eden Haiku: I have a notebook by my bed and I took some notes at 4 am.

Eliza Madrigal smiles

Dash Earthboy: what no oil lamp?

Eden Haiku: Good thing because I can't remember what I wrote, Went back to sleep.

Eden Haiku: I use a flashlight so as not to wake up my boyfriend ;-)

Dash Earthboy: :)

Eliza Madrigal: last night I had a thought that seemed so obvious and then an urge to write it down, but I was *sure* to remember, so didn't.... sigh

Eden Haiku: Oh Eliza, it will come back ;-)

Dash Earthboy: just thinking about changes in my writing since I've been using laptops

Eliza Madrigal: yes maybe in another form

Eden Haiku: yes Dash?

Dash Earthboy: yah, Eden, the old notebook & paper journal are now in my past

 

--BELL--

 

Eden Haiku: I find easier to use notebook than iPad for this kind of night notes. Notebook is much lighter ;-)

Dash Earthboy: trying to figure out what to do with lots of pencils, pens & paper :)

Eden Haiku: hehe

Dash Earthboy: yah

Eden Haiku: Eliza, did you feel your vanished thought from yesterday lurking around during the pause?

Dash Earthboy: i used an mc recorder for awhile and then switched to digital

Eden Haiku: Do you write poetry, fiction., Dash?

Dash Earthboy: but to avoid waking people I started using the laptops with non-click keys :)

 

Many things swirling

 

Eliza Madrigal: many things swirling Eden.... all quite wispy

Dash Earthboy: Eden: yes, yes and yes :)

Eden Haiku: loves swirling thoughts. Eliza is a dervish ;-)

Eden Haiku: likes Dash's third yes. What else do you write Dash?

Eliza Madrigal: one waits to see how they will dance and if that dance will allow itself to be captured :)

Eden Haiku: well said Liz ;-)

Eliza Madrigal: the voice recorder is interesting, in that one gets different things than if writing from memory... did you find that, Dash?

Dash Earthboy: poetry, fiction, philosophy, critiques of movies/CDs/books, technical pieces...

Dash Earthboy: yes Eliza, that has quite an effect

Eden Haiku: To make oneself receptive to swirling thoughts and channel them into words is a challenge yet much fun isn't it?

Dash Earthboy: i never have spoken extemporaneously very well :(

Dash Earthboy: hey observm

Eliza Madrigal waves to observrm

observerm Resident waves

Eden Haiku: Trying to decipher 'extemporaneously"... Out of time?

Eden Haiku: waves to observerm

 

Being an artisan of light

 

Dash Earthboy: improv on the fly maybe Eden?

Eliza Madrigal nods @ Eden... the challenge seems to be letting things happen as they will rather than deciding beforehand

Eden Haiku: Yes, improvise! as we do here :-)

Dash Earthboy: i seem to improv better in writing

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Dash Earthboy: hey Bleu

Eden Haiku: Than on recorder? Yes, I find that too Dash.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)

Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)

Dash Earthboy: yes Eden

Eden Haiku: Good morning Bleu ;-)

Eliza Madrigal: Bleu subdued

Eden Haiku: We have been talking about writing ;-)

Dash Earthboy: in promoting my music talent it's hard to get some to understand my strengths are in writing/production more than performing

Eden Haiku: Creative writing, swirling thoughts...

Bleu Oleander: nice

Dash Earthboy: and i especially don't like solo performing

Eden Haiku: You compose music Dash?

Dash Earthboy: i'm not into entertaining so much as into teaching and informing

Dash Earthboy: oh yes Eden

Dash Earthboy: i think my creative writing approach has served me well in computer programming too

Eden Haiku: (Sorry, was switching from wireless mouse...)

Eden Haiku: Would you say you are an "artisan of light" Dash? Through your creations?

Dash Earthboy: nice way to say it Eden :)

Eden Haiku: smiles

 

Insubordination to the dark side

 

Dash Earthboy: you see, even in my programming, I have been ordered by employers to add to the darkness rather than the light

Dash Earthboy: that's how i've lost some jobs: insubordination to the dark side

Eden Haiku: Oh, sorry to hear that...

Dash Earthboy: yah it hurts

Dash Earthboy: many ways

 

--BELL--

 

Eden Haiku: It's hard but at least, you stayed true to yourself...

Dash Earthboy: and true to my Guide :)

Eden Haiku: Tell us about your Guide if you will Dash ?

 

Dash tells us about his role models

 

Dash Earthboy: to know my Guide, it is good to know my role models who were faithful to the same Guide

Eden Haiku: listens

Eliza Madrigal listens too

Eden Haiku: Hi Zen ;-))

Dash Earthboy: the top three are Socrates, Jesus of Nazareth, and Vincent Van Gogh

Bleu Oleander: hi Zen

Dash Earthboy: hi Zen

Eliza Madrigal waves to Zen :)

Zen Arado: Hi All )listens too)

Eden Haiku: We have been talking about creative writing, music and so on Zen ;-)

Dash Earthboy: Socrates & Jesus especially all emphasized the importance of integrity as well as treating others with the compassion you hope to find in them

Eden Haiku: Dash is telling us about his role models.

Dash Earthboy: Even Van Gogh as a minister emphasized such things

Dash Earthboy: but people have made caricatures of my role models

 

Integrity

 

Eden Haiku: Integrity and compassion yes, they are important values for an "artisan of light",

Dash Earthboy: mispresenting their examples by quoting out of context and re-creating events in a misleading way

Zen Arado: never quite sure what that word 'integrity' means

Eden Haiku: Well, we are not doing that now Dash. You can talk about what you see in them that guides you.

Dash Earthboy: disharmony between word & deed reveals a lack of integrity

Eden Haiku: Lack of congruence yes.

Dash Earthboy: Socrates especially emphasized that the rulers needed to have integrity

Dash Earthboy: and Jesus emphasized that for the religious leaders of the Jewish population living under Roman occupancy

Zen Arado: practicing what you preach?

Dash Earthboy: of course, in Jewish tradition, the Romans were never going to heaven anyway, no more than animals could

Zen Arado: my impression of Socrates was of a man who went around the marketplace challenging people's ideas and assumptions

Eden Haiku: I also see integrity as the capacity to include all aspects of oneself, integrating dark sides and light sides into a whole.

Eliza Madrigal nods

Dash Earthboy: that is one thing few understand about the Bible canon: pseudo-history from the Jewish perspective

Zen Arado: not sure what an integrated person would be like

Zen Arado: boring maybe :)

Eliza Madrigal: hah.... don't think so Zen... maybe less self-conscious/inhibited

Dash Earthboy: is that your opinion of Socrates then, Zen?

Zen Arado: likes the quirkiness of people

 

I tried to bring us closer to our experience, as I wasn't sure anymore what we were discussing

 

 

Eden Haiku: Why don't we stay closer to our experiences Dash? I feel lost when we discuss at a more general level: we are from different cultures and different time zones. It makes things resonate differently.

Zen Arado: not my opinion Dash....just the impression I have from the little I have read about him

Bleu Oleander: integrity ... firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values?

Dash Earthboy: of course Eden :)

Eden Haiku: Oh no Bleu, I don't think integrity is firm adherence to anything external

Dash Earthboy: look at what Zen has said above...then understtand that p'eople act on their impressions and their impressions are part of their beliefs

 

Socrates

 

Zen Arado: I did a study on him one time but it was about whether or not drinking the hemlock (as the athorities insisted he do) was an act of suicide or not

Bleu Oleander: just threw that out .... a dictionary definition

Zen Arado: ah no Dash

Zen Arado: my impressions stay open

Eden Haiku: smiles at Bleu

Bleu Oleander: moral and artistic codes can be very internal

Dash Earthboy: non-sequitor there Zen

Zen Arado: I know they are just that...impressions

Eliza Madrigal: yes, relying on external system would seem almost the opposite of integrity to me, speaking from personal feelings

Eliza Madrigal: it would be pretending in a most unplayful way

Eden Haiku: Integrity as I undesrtand it is being true to your own voice, your deepest authentic self. Where the self resonates with the Self.

 

--BELL--

 

Eliza Madrigal: beautifully said

Dash Earthboy: since I have stated that my role models have influenced my understanding of my Guide, it is their definition of integrity that I adhere to as well

Eliza Madrigal: your understanding of what they've given as their definition

Eliza Madrigal: the observer affects the observed

Dash Earthboy: also, as previously stated, one's impressions (aka understandings) are part of one's real beliefs which guide their actions

 

Van Gogh

 

Zen Arado: not sure Van Gogh is who I would choose for a role model...why choose him Dash?

Zen Arado: I'm not keen on beliefs Dash

Dash Earthboy: interesting, Zen

Bleu Oleander: he had a nice way with sunflowers :)

Zen Arado: prefer temporary ..not fixed views

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Zen Arado: he was a great painter yes...but was rather disturbed mentally

Eliza Madrigal: yes and movement

Dash Earthboy: good makings of anarchy in such an approach Zen

 

Trying to bring us back to the here and now, I put on a rave particle effect....

 

Bleu Oleander: blinded by Eden's eminating wisdom :)

Eden Haiku: hehe

Eliza Madrigal: wonderful!

Dash Earthboy: the kind of thing Socrates didn't like in leaders

Dash Earthboy: nice Eden :)

Zen Arado: democracies proceed by constant challenge and debate though

Eliza Madrigal nods, room for revision and breath

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yaku

Zen Arado: hi Yaku

Yakuzza Lethecus: morning everyone

Bleu Oleander: hi Yaku

Dash Earthboy: hi Yaku

 

And boom, Yaku appears!

 

Eden Haiku: Just trying to bring us back to our experience: virtual avatars sitting by a virtual pool ;-)

Eden Haiku: And boom, Yaku appears!!!

Bleu Oleander: :)

Zen Arado: Socrates was executed for stirring up controversy in the young men of his time

 

Socrates, Jesus and Van Gogh

 

Dash Earthboy: what were your findings Zen?

Dash Earthboy: suicide or not?

Eden Haiku: And real people sitting behind our computer screens from Atlanta to Germany, Ireland, Arizona, Florida and Quebec.

Zen Arado: those three you picked were revolutionary figures mostly Dash

Bleu Oleander: Socrates never wrote anything ... we only know of him through others

Bleu Oleander: mainly Plato

Dash Earthboy: true Bleu :)

Zen Arado: yes..through Plato

Dash Earthboy: same with Jesus

Zen Arado: yep

Bleu Oleander: yes

Zen Arado: though we have the letters of VG

Zen Arado: to his brother Theo

Eden Haiku: But Van Gogh wrote many letters to his brother Theo

Eden Haiku: snap zen

Zen Arado: :)

Dash Earthboy: snap

Eden Haiku: beautiful letters

Eden Haiku: In which Van Gogh says there is "truth in each movement"

Dash Earthboy: and beautiful paintings :)

 

Socrates's suicide

 

Zen Arado: suicide...good question Dash

Dash Earthboy: 'what were the alternatives, Zen?

Zen Arado: he voluntarily drank the hemlock

Zen Arado: but only because he was ordered to

Zen Arado: suicide can revolve around the voluntariness of the action

Dash Earthboy: so you don't know about the offer to pay a small fine if he renounced his challenge to the authorities?

Eden Haiku: Gently massaging Eliza's neck so she comes back to life (he avatar fell asleep)

Eliza Madrigal: :)) Thank you Eden

Eden Haiku: ;-)

Dash Earthboy: called plea bargaining these days :)

Zen Arado: yeh ....renounce his challenge

Zen Arado: so he had options

Dash Earthboy: fire good :)

 

In another attempt to bring the discussion back to the ground, I wore a " fire wear me" object that didn't work too well: it kind of froze around me instead of becoming dancing flames as it's supposed to be

 

Zen Arado: so it was voluntary..

Eliza Madrigal: we didn't start the fire.... it was always burning... lalala

Eden Haiku: ahaha

Zen Arado: but it's a dilemma

Dash Earthboy: :)

Zen Arado: makes me realise you can't really get clear answers to some problems by reason alone

Zen Arado: one of the reasons I got disillusined with philosophy

Eliza Madrigal: it is easy to hide behind philosophies and 'beliefs'

Zen Arado: yes

Eliza Madrigal: never stopping to really put oneself on the spot but deflecting with others' thoughts

Eden Haiku: And disconnect from the fire in our bellies...

Bleu Oleander: http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/37298

Zen Arado: we believe what we want to believe....I believe

Zen Arado: often...

Dash Earthboy: Zen & Eliza, that is exactly what Jesus & Socrates fought against: hiding behind professions of beliefs

Bleu Oleander: good conversation about argumentative theory by the guy who wrote the paper

 

--BELL--

 

Yaku is on fire!!! 

 

Yakuzza Lethecus: actually i still think it´s very hard to get "what philosophy is" since there isn´t' one" and alot of ppl talk about it but constantly mean different things, clearification of terms needed badly, especially in my own head

Eliza Madrigal: ty Bleu, will watch this one later tonight ...

Zen Arado: beliefs can be nice comfortable things though

Zen Arado: why deprive others of them?

Zen Arado: they make ppl feel safe and reassures them

Bleu Oleander: yw Eliza :)

Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure I've ever met someone free of beliefs entirely... many are hidden it seems

Dash Earthboy: sounds like Zen expressing a belief to me :)

Bleu Oleander: bye for now everyone :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bleu

Dash Earthboy: bye Bleu

Eden Haiku: Bye Bleu. See you soon ;-)

Zen Arado: bye Bleu

Eliza Madrigal: but maybe some are more fluid than others, able to drop at times etc

Yakuzza Lethecus: yesterday i was in discussion where one person talked about money and it´s value then one was joking "what he philosopher" he would become, i recall that i always grew up with ppl been surreal ppl with crazy ideas without differentiation of terms and alike

Eliza Madrigal: Bye bleu :)

Zen Arado: yeh Eliza

Zen Arado: it's the fixed views are the problem

Eliza Madrigal: hehe Yaku.... that's so interesting

Eden Haiku: What do you mean being surreal yaku?

Yakuzza Lethecus: philosophers are all crazy taxi drivers

. but joked about

Eden Haiku: Ah, I see...

Yakuzza Lethecus: i did that too

Yakuzza Lethecus: for a long time, it was in my thinking

Eliza Madrigal: deflection?

Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i guess that´s part of it

Eliza Madrigal: like, whenever I get really sensitive about something, I notice my humor gets sharp to deflect

Eliza Madrigal: to get away from the discomfort, the fire spot :)

Eliza Madrigal: so people use intellect this way perhaps

 

Philosophy provides templates

 

Yakuzza Lethecus: well today i would just have more differentiation in my thinking and i believe that philosophy provides templates in which one can think and communicate better

Dash Earthboy: hi druth

Eden Haiku: "templates., yes, that's a nice concept

Zen Arado: it can be good for clearer thinking

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey druth

Eliza Madrigal: yes, like plato's cave can be a koan

Eden Haiku: Hey Druth.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)

druth Vlodovic: hey

Zen Arado: you learn to see through false arguments

Zen Arado: Hi Druth

Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, plato´s cave helps communicating about frames of reality

Yakuzza Lethecus: our own perspective out of our individual caves, no matter how light and bright our caves even might be :P

Eliza Madrigal: but for it to be powerful, perhaps it must be 'personal' not pointing 'out there' to the way 'other' are wrong, etc...

Eliza Madrigal: exactly Yaku

Zen Arado: yes

Zen Arado: read lately that what we see is 90% made up in our brains

Eden Haiku: Sorry to leave now (Yaku is so inspired!) but I will read the rest of the log when I edit it. Have a great day everyone!

Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Eden :)

Eliza Madrigal: but I guess each type of reasoning has its place

Zen Arado: bye Eden

Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eden

Yakuzza Lethecus: well not so inspired, but i am also going to have dinner now

Eliza Madrigal: :))

Dash Earthboy: *remembers the smokers' defense and how he was criticized for pointing out there how their action was unhealthy for those around them

Zen Arado: yes...it's when you think philosophy or science are the only valid ways to understand things

Eliza Madrigal: interesting times we live in, so much available

Eliza Madrigal: no one can corner the market or even pretend to anymore :))

Yakuzza Lethecus: have a good afternoon everyone

Dash Earthboy: you too Yaku

Eliza Madrigal: Bye Yaku Linden

Eliza Madrigal: :)

 

Walking out into the snow

 

Zen Arado: Dash...I remember a philosophy summer school where students heatedly argued over the issue of Socrates possible suicide and a guy in Scott's antarctic expedition who walked out into the snow and was never found

Zen Arado: bye Yaku

Eliza Madrigal: I'm woozy with a cold today so will sign off for a bit, thanks all

Zen Arado: snow

Dash Earthboy: okay bye Eliza

Zen Arado: bye Eliza

Eliza Madrigal: Byeeeee

Zen Arado: I better go too

Zen Arado: byeee

Dash Earthboy: so i guess the caricatures of my role models remain in peoples' minds and influence their response to me as well as their other actions

Dash Earthboy: bye Zen

Dash Earthboy: how's Firestorm working for you, druth?

 

--BELL--

 

Plato's cave

 

druth Vlodovic: slowly ;-/

Dash Earthboy: :(

Dash Earthboy: it's being promoted like a Microsoft product: latest/greatest etc

druth Vlodovic: shh :)

druth Vlodovic: it's ok, just my computer is slow

Dash Earthboy: i know that feeling

druth Vlodovic: I find it funny that the first step in seeing beyond the shadows of the cave is to deny their relevance and value

druth Vlodovic: but it must have been the shadows themselves that prompted us to turn our heads

Dash Earthboy: which shadows were those?

druth Vlodovic: I've just been reading a writeup of "Plato's cave"

Dash Earthboy: oh, i see

druth Vlodovic: prisoners chained so that the only things they see are shadows projected on a wall

Dash Earthboy: yes that was part of the earlier discussion

druth Vlodovic: until they think the shadows are reality

druth Vlodovic: so anything else must be other than reality

druth Vlodovic: it's a common topic

Dash Earthboy: for whom?

druth Vlodovic: around SL anyway, and in high school, anywhere people try to see differently, or change perspectives

Dash Earthboy: so Plato's Cave is the new "I'm Okay, You're Okay"? :)

druth Vlodovic: who are your idols?

druth Vlodovic: lol, and an excuse for cultural relativism

druth Vlodovic: sorry, "excuse" was the wrong word, I choose mine for meaning rather than implication

Dash Earthboy: cultural relativism as opposed to more universal relevance?

druth Vlodovic: universal relevance?

Dash Earthboy: or global if you prefer

druth Vlodovic: hmm, "common bonds" sort of thing

druth Vlodovic: we worship difference in my culture, like we worship change

druth Vlodovic: but I like my culture, and don't want it to change, an inherent social paradox

Dash Earthboy: i've heard that change is the only constant (in this context)

druth Vlodovic: everyone I look at I keep seeing human beings, sometimes I worry I'm not seeing the true person because of the similarities

druth Vlodovic: "Nothing is constant but change" lol

druth Vlodovic: but we forget that change is like waves against a cliff, rather than dynamite

druth Vlodovic: sculpting, refining

druth Vlodovic: not necessarily destroying

Dash Earthboy: and then there's tidal waves against metro areas...

druth Vlodovic: (can be like)

Dash Earthboy: big changes fast

druth Vlodovic: things put where they don't really belong, poor things

Dash Earthboy: like a hurricane

Dash Earthboy: then again, where does anything "belong"?

druth Vlodovic: not really desireable, these catastophic changes

druth Vlodovic: where it is happy?

Dash Earthboy: i guess I should go fix me some breakfast now that it's going on noon :)

druth Vlodovic: where is dash happy?

Dash Earthboy: gtsy again

druth Vlodovic: lol, where his stomach is full

Dash Earthboy: bye for now

druth Vlodovic: have fun dash, good eating

 

--BELL--

 

druth Vlodovic: "yesterday upon the stair I met a woman who wasn't there..." good day to you too :)