The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino Rabeni, Milakel Resident, Zaldaan Smirnah and myself

Smiling:

Zen Arado: Hi Zal :)
Zaldaan Sirnah: Hi
Zen Arado: how are you Zal?
Zaldaan Sirnah: I'm wondering what the difference is between treating people friendly, with a smile, or not
Zaldaan Sirnah: I wonder on what should I base a smile
Zen Arado: sometimes our moods follow our physical actions I think
Zen Arado: so smiling can meake us feel better
Zen Arado: and vice versa of course
Zaldaan Sirnah: it makes others feel better too, when you smile
Zaldaan Sirnah: but, what is the point of that? is my presence, purpose, and goal, to make others feel better?
Zen Arado: do we have a goal or purpose?
Zen Arado: that is an assumption?
Zen Arado: it's just nicer to feel happy
Zaldaan Sirnah: that goes back to my mood -- perhaps I too-readily smile when I am not feeling it within
Zaldaan Sirnah: so it's not true to myself and doesn't necessarily make me happy. This places the physiological effect on the side for now (the deliberate act of smiling will, in the brain, and/or feedback within the muscles/brain) still cause some happiness
Zen Arado: maybe you are looking at the outward act too much
Zaldaan Sirnah: but it also, if not really felt, comes across as ingenuine in some cases
Zen Arado: are you sure you don't feel happy?
Zen Arado: how does unhappy feel?
Zaldaan Sirnah: I believe I habitually have certain behaviors which are not truly presenting my feelings
Zaldaan Sirnah: nor my thoughts, and while that is all being expressed, I don't want to express an ingenuine smile
Zen Arado: yeh investigate the feelings
Zen Arado: I know what you mean about falseness
Zen Arado: someone smiles at you but you know they are seething inside
Zen Arado: it comes across as phoney
Zaldaan Sirnah: lol, yes, but for those in spiritual pursuit I don't mean such a vast difference :)
Zaldaan Sirnah: just you and I
Zaldaan Sirnah: no seething :)
Zen Arado: yeh...well even insincerity comes across... :)
Zaldaan Sirnah: what others do you still can see usually.. in general people pick up most of it, even if they delude themselves from their own sensitivity and awareness
Zaldaan Sirnah: yeah... I think I'd prefer to not smile if I don't feel like smiling.. it can still be more subtle..
Zaldaan Sirnah: I can nod, without it being an upset nod.. a mona lisa smile, or a feeling of respect
Zaldaan Sirnah: like if you're passing someone you know somewhere
Zaldaan Sirnah: I smile as a greeting, but I don't feel like it's what my system really wants
Zen Arado: well...if I don't feel like smiling I investigate that
Zen Arado: why don't I ?
Zen Arado: what upset me?
Zen Arado: amI clinging on to what somebody said?
Zaldaan Sirnah: is smiling our stable state of being to return to?
Zen Arado: I think so
Zen Arado: our natural happiness
Zen Arado: just we let something cloud it
Zen Arado: we let something obscure it
Zen Arado: we like to ruminate on judgements of situations
Zaldaan Sirnah: but.. to the point of an actual smile seems extreme
Zen Arado: but a smile is just the surface of how we feel
Zen Arado: it reflects our inner state
Zen Arado: and maybe you are right to just be natural
Zen Arado: not forcing it
milakel Resident: hi :)
milakel Resident: new zen :)
Zen Arado: but also look at why you feel a bit unhappy
Zen Arado: Hi Mila :)
Zen Arado: that's what we practice in Zen
Zaldaan Sirnah: but.. always smiling?
milakel Resident: nice suit, zen
Zen Arado: no feelings escape our investigation
Zen Arado: a lot of bad feelings are just habit patterns
Zaldaan Sirnah: I don't mean unhappiness.. the unhappiness can come from giving an ingenuine smile :)
milakel Resident: i know of a "sad" song that makes me feel at ease and smile :)
Zen Arado: but out thoughts tell us things that aren't true sometimes
Zen Arado: yes Mila :)
Zen Arado: sadness and happiness are complicated things
Zen Arado: if I have the thought that I feel down...I challenge it
Zen Arado: or ask why?
milakel Resident: tears of happiness :)
Zen Arado: of course there is natural grief like if someone close dies
Zen Arado: no use pretending to be happy about that
Zen Arado: just let the grief run its coiurse
milakel Resident: although some cultures do dance and sing when someone dies
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: thinks of Irish wakes
Zen Arado: it's a lot about awareness
Zaldaan Sirnah: maybe we don't love properly, for it to be uncomfortable when someone dies
Zen Arado: well....why complicate it
Zen Arado: ?
Zen Arado: aren't we so ready to put ourselves down?
Zaldaan Sirnah: I approach so much wrong in life, I don't see why my loving is beyond the scope of my misunderstanding.
milakel Resident: people grief in various ways
Zen Arado: I like what you said about phoney smiles
Zen Arado: we don't allow ourselves to express our natural feelings so much that we have lost touch with our real feelings maybe
Zaldaan Sirnah: I think so
Zaldaan Sirnah: because I recognize the difference in what I want and experience at those times.
milakel Resident: yea
Zaldaan Sirnah: and also, another approach in considering this, is how we feel when we see someone else do it
Zaldaan Sirnah: let's say someone we know walks by us, both of us handling our tasks
Zaldaan Sirnah: and they smile a fake smile -- again, we do detect this
Zaldaan Sirnah: they mean nothing wrong with it either
Zaldaan Sirnah: it's just another expression. I'm the type who smiles at people as a greeting -- and if I'm not really happy, or even if I'm upset, I still might smile, and my face should show it as such
Zaldaan Sirnah: the issue is that our perceptions are not perfect.. and that internal discomfort I feel is ALSO the lack of coordination
milakel Resident: cause being unhappy is a bad image?
Zen Arado: he yes MIla ..that is a bad case of smiling...just worrying about what impression we give others
Zaldaan Sirnah: Mila, that's a good point
Zen Arado: I think if we really notice a person and get past our initial stereotype of them we can feel some empathy for them and want to make them happy
Zen Arado: (and get past being wrapped up in our own thoughts)
Zaldaan Sirnah: all that which we recognize, like "worrying what they think" or "being concerned for the impression we are giving," is not necessarily wrong -- but the issue brings up the more core issue, of us being who we truly are
milakel Resident: that person should also open himself to help
Zen Arado: yeh we can avoid showing our true feelings as a defence measure
Zaldaan Sirnah: I could say it's "being responsible for what you present", however, I honestly believe the pursuit is to harmonize our being
milakel Resident: most people will deny any problems and smile
Zen Arado: being guarded
Zen Arado: so...we should try to be more 'natural'?
Zen Arado: more 'our true selves?
Zaldaan Sirnah: which brings greater peace and balance to the system, in unity?
milakel Resident: zal, "worrying what they think" can be a real curse if gone too far
Zen Arado: agree Mila
Zaldaan Sirnah: a father not smiling at his son might assist in his son's self-correction
milakel Resident: zan, being natural is a good approach :)
milakel Resident: *zen
Zen Arado: yeh and noticing how much I still classify things as good and bad
Zen Arado: they just are what they are
Zen Arado: being natural is just being what you are
Zen Arado: though others will tell you if it is good or bad in their eyes
Zen Arado: I remember a woman on a muscular dystrophy forum
Zen Arado: she has the same type as me
Zen Arado: she can't smile because her face muscles are so weak
Zen Arado: I have a problem with that too but not as bad as her
milakel Resident: i think for being natural, it's important to also perceive it as being natural, without good or bad. otherwise it may not work.
Zaldaan Sirnah: which type, Zen?
Zen Arado: she reckons that has ruined her entire life
Zen Arado: she lost jobs as a receptionist because she coulsn;t smile at customers
milakel Resident: :/
Zen Arado: and boyfreiends
milakel Resident: that's sad
Zen Arado: they called her 'sourpuss'
Zen Arado: so smiling is an important social action
Zen Arado: if you are introduced to someone and they dont' smile back at you you think there is something wrong
milakel Resident: true
Zen Arado: I have FSH MD
Zaldaan Sirnah: the internal state of a system is not the same as the outside blatantly obvious interactions
Zen Arado: so in a way you can be gald that you actually CAN smile :)
milakel Resident: yes, indeed
Zaldaan Sirnah: I would hope that some of these situations are potentially useful as potent sources of spiritual growth
Zen Arado: yes
milakel Resident: something we don't even notice in our daily life, but we do smile a lot come to think of it
Zen Arado: but better to get out of the mind and analysing I think
Zaldaan Sirnah: can a family member, interested, develop a recognition of the delicate nature of the smile, so it must not be shown with muscles?
Zaldaan Sirnah: how would we do that? focus on our heart? pay attention to our passing thoughts? pay attention to our deeper visual perception (not the reactive one)
Zaldaan Sirnah: Mila, smiles, laughter, etc. are all very social. Being on the computer more, I smile less.
Zen Arado: first question...you can smile with your eyes
milakel Resident: yes, zen, true
Zaldaan Sirnah: does FSH affect the chewing muscles?
milakel Resident: remember the qatar airways commercial?
Zen Arado: and yes ...family members or friends would become accustomed to you and accept the inability to smile and compensate..but so many judge from first impressions
milakel Resident: there's a woman smiling and you can not see her mouth
Zaldaan Sirnah: Zen, oh it's very difficult -- and not everyone is interested in order for that capability to be developed. Tensions then build.
Zen Arado: and I think we if we feel unhappy we try to discover the source of it...where you feel the pain
milakel Resident: hmm
Zen Arado: yes MIla...and what beautiful eyes :)
Zen Arado: we can only change ourselves
Zen Arado: and a lot of that is through challenging our thoughts and assumptions
Zen Arado: sometimes I have a bad dream just before wakening
Zen Arado: and if I let that it could make me feel grumpy
Zen Arado: but I think...it isn't true..only a dream
milakel Resident: for the record: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtoHacarGBA
milakel Resident: :)
Zen Arado: and if I do feel feel down....well that;s the way I feel....accept it
Zen Arado: but it is always material to work with
Zen Arado: intewresting to work with our moods and feelings
Zen Arado: why do I feel like that?
milakel Resident: it also helps to acknowledge that someone has it much worse than you and keeps on living
Zen Arado: and I think that if we feel good we smile ...we can't even stp smiling
Zen Arado: yes ...the old Christian adage...count your blessings
milakel Resident: some people lose the ability to use a corporate jet and it's a disaster for them
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: did you hear about the 'happiest man in the world' ?
milakel Resident: um, no
milakel Resident: who is he?
milakel Resident: *ponders if it's pema*
Zen Arado: Mathieu Ricard
milakel Resident: oh
Zen Arado: he is a Tibetan monk
Zen Arado: wrote a book called 'Happiness'
Zen Arado: he has little material wealth
Zen Arado: he was a PH D in biochemistry
Zen Arado: but gave it up to become a monk
Zen Arado: he is intersted in the brain and analysying brain states in meditation and suchlike
Zaldaan Sirnah: re
milakel Resident: it's good to see a man who found his happiness