2011.07.21 07:00 - I don't have a private island

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind who couldn't think of an adequate title for this potpourri of interesting topics, so chose a bizarre one instead!

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi there!
Storm Nordwind: How are you today?
Storm Nordwind: Hi Fc!

Perception vs. experience.

Yakuzza Lethecus: pretty well, a bit thoughtfull about some experiences or at which point perceptions are ready to be called as those
FcSeeker Resident: Hi Storm and Yakuzza
Storm Nordwind: Hmm... that's interesting idea. You're suggesting there's a difference between perceptions and experiences?
FcSeeker Resident: imo also...
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, a bit more mental work on those perceptions and understanding to call those experiences i´d think
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey seeker :)
FcSeeker Resident: for example when I feel the pain for some persons negative thoughts that is perception, but when I understand the reason to that person's negativity, I learn and that's to experience...imho
Storm Nordwind: I have to say I'm not clear on any difference. It seems to me I experience what I perceive.
Storm Nordwind: Hi druth
druth Vlodovic: hi
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey druth
FcSeeker Resident: Hello druth
Storm Nordwind: I wonder Fc whether then you are defining experience as wisdom, or at least potential wisdom. I suppose we're playing with words and definitions, but I'm interested to see the way others use words! :)
FcSeeker Resident: just started to think that I might have understood the word perceive the wrong way
FcSeeker Resident: it gives me the feeling that the person observes something, seing or feeling or hearing or smelling, but do not yet identify what that is; all of it...
FcSeeker Resident: but to experience is to get to knowledge of that something and realizing; learning
Storm Nordwind: I see perception as registering something from awareness. Identifying it, I would say, is an optional and often flawed extra step! ;)
Storm Nordwind: And to me what you describe is an optional next step. I would have already experienced, but later processing of that experience may lead to learning for me.
FcSeeker Resident: sighs that his knowledge of english is too little
Storm Nordwind: Your knowledge of English is wonderful Fc! :)
FcSeeker Resident: oh...
Storm Nordwind: The problem is we all make assumptions about what others mean
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i think so too :)

Grokking.

druth Vlodovic: he was grokking it :)
FcSeeker Resident: can that 'grokking' be said some other way ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: understanding ?
Storm Nordwind remembers the now departed grokker search engine
druth Vlodovic: it's a made up woird which means full understanding and appreciation of something
Storm Nordwind: Grok is. I think, a modern term originated by a SciFi writer last century
druth Vlodovic: "stranger in a strange land" by Heinlein, a popular sci-fi author
Storm Nordwind: Ah thank you druthy!
FcSeeker Resident: thank you druth

Understanding and memory.

Storm Nordwind: Does understanding disappear, I wonder, if memory fades?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think it does
druth Vlodovic: I think we learn by retaining understanding after forgetting details, what makes belief hard to shake sometimes
Yakuzza Lethecus: understanding gets replaced by habituality and at some point comes a blindness why things are the way they are
Storm Nordwind: If it does disappear, it would seem to me that definition of understanding is a long way short of "grokking", where it becomes integrated into your being
Storm Nordwind: I know I forget details and my memory is very poor, but I suspect experiences change "the shape of me" so that I react to circumstances differently. Not sure if this is habit or just who I have become
druth Vlodovic: the thing we understand disappears, only it's effect on us remains
Storm Nordwind smiles and nods

Trauma care.

druth Vlodovic: they are learning this in treating trauma, manipulating the understandings rather than dealing with the traumatic situation
Storm Nordwind: I see
Storm Nordwind: Is that similar to PaB "dropping" in that people are encouraged no longer to identify with the experience but rather with the understanding?
druth Vlodovic: no, "dropping" seems more like accepting what is there
druth Vlodovic: after that comes deciding what you want to be there and manipulating what you find
FcSeeker Resident: to forget is special treasure of human mind...maybe many other life forms has the same treasure...that gives the opportunity to experience things different ways
Storm Nordwind: I like that Fc :))
Storm Nordwind: I understand druth - though dropping identifying with experiences (and opinions etc) still seems to me to be associated
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: I have to go, errands to run and the day isn't getting cooler :)
druth Vlodovic: have fun guys
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care druth
Storm Nordwind waves
FcSeeker Resident: waves

The treasure of forgetting.

Storm Nordwind: I liked what you said, Fc, about the treasure of forgetting. I once lived someone who had a huge memory and would point out to me whenever I repeated something I'd already told them. Now I live with someone who is as forgetful as me, and we love to hear the same stories afresh each time! :)
FcSeeker Resident: <3<3<3
--BELL--
FcSeeker Resident: same story can give different experience when told at different time because even own view can change to the story
Storm Nordwind: yes I agree!
Yakuzza Lethecus: me too
Storm Nordwind: And another advantage ... that way you are very unlikely to get bored, as you are not judging each moment but experiencing anew with child-like wonder
FcSeeker Resident: <3<3<3
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey dash
FcSeeker Resident: Hello Dash
Storm Nordwind waves
Dash Earthboy: hey y'all

Forgetting may have purpose.

FcSeeker Resident: I have strong belief that what we forget has the purpose that we forget...but addmitt that it's a bit too strongly said...
FcSeeker Resident: meaning that so called accedents do happen also sometimes
FcSeeker Resident: for example when one gets too tired
Dash Earthboy: when tired our awareness is usually lowered
Storm Nordwind: or "slowered" :)
FcSeeker Resident: yes
Dash Earthboy: ya
milakel Resident: hi :)
Dash Earthboy: same as when one is under other influences
Storm Nordwind: Hi Mila
Dash Earthboy: hey Mila
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mila
FcSeeker Resident: imo that also is based on tiredness
milakel Resident: like the grass
FcSeeker Resident: when one has no enough power to avoid that

It's hot in many places in RL.

Dash Earthboy: the heat sure has been draining my energy today
FcSeeker Resident: (thinking not to send the hails this time)
Dash Earthboy: the grass is nice change from stone :)
FcSeeker Resident: likes them both and changes are good thing imo
Dash Earthboy: yep
Dash Earthboy: like when we shrink the fountain & circle :)
FcSeeker Resident: hm
FcSeeker Resident: maybe I can do something for the heat ...
Dash Earthboy: winter garden :)
--BELL--
milakel Resident: oh, it's one of moon's tricks :)

Is intentionality different from going with the flow?

Yakuzza Lethecus: somehow before i thought about the important skill of splitting the desire for progress and change from our allowence of happyness and settledness
FcSeeker Resident: yes
milakel Resident: apparently, someone else has the secret knowledge
Dash Earthboy: intentional living vs go with the flow?
milakel Resident: *tries to grasp yaku's comment*
Storm Nordwind: Are we not part of the flow? Do we not create part of the flow for others to go with? And do we not create eddies that we will experience ourselves again in time?
Dash Earthboy: certainly
milakel Resident: yaku, you mean that change can't be a happy one?
Dash Earthboy: sounded to me like yaku said that change is not always necessary for happiness?
Yakuzza Lethecus: no that it need to be splitted apart
FcSeeker Resident: yes to all of your those questions Storm

Change and happiness.

Yakuzza Lethecus: that change or not, no matter what should not have an effect on happyness, well might be an subjective issue sometimes
Dash Earthboy: right
FcSeeker Resident: can anybody avoid changes ?
FcSeeker Resident: hm
FcSeeker Resident: bad sentence
FcSeeker Resident: is it possible to anyone to avoid changes
milakel Resident: it is, fc. for a while.
Dash Earthboy: those who live in a bubble can avoid many but not all changes
Yakuzza Lethecus: no, i also didn´t write corretly what i meant, like not being as skilled as one liked to be, not performing as one would like to be, that kind of progress change :P
Yakuzza Lethecus: change will always happen
Yakuzza Lethecus: fortunatly when we get older we might forget :P
FcSeeker Resident: or receive all more peacfully
Dash Earthboy: *agrees
FcSeeker Resident: some people are that 'old' already as the child
milakel Resident: yaku, gaining skill or performance sounds like a nice change to me :)
FcSeeker Resident: but do they experience so much in their life when all comes 'through' the peace...
Storm Nordwind: This comes back to what we were saying earlier. If we identify with our experiences, instead of just observing them, we have the dichotomy of me/not me or what I want/not what I want - and we'll not always be able to accept what is, including change. I find that happiness can come from dropping that identification.
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, to me too, problem the lack of it might cause unhappyness
Yakuzza Lethecus: @mila
Yakuzza Lethecus: and that´s the split to be done somehow was in my mind
Yakuzza Lethecus: which doesn´t mean to stop grasping
Yakuzza Lethecus: just leaving selfinduced punishment out
Dash Earthboy: :)
milakel Resident: yes, yaku, that can be disturbing

Self-discipline and self-punishment.

Dash Earthboy: there's a distinct difference between self-discipline and self-punishement :)
Storm Nordwind: Forgiveness benefits the forgiver :)
FcSeeker Resident: so close to each other are the words 'disciple' and 'discipline'...
Dash Earthboy: of course
--BELL--
Dash Earthboy: disciples are practitioners of the master's disciplines
FcSeeker Resident: yes
Dash Earthboy: Socrates had disciples we choose to call students for some unknown reason
Storm Nordwind: Both words ('disciple' and 'discipline') from the Latin "discere" = to learn
Dash Earthboy: as if Jesus created the concept of disciples
FcSeeker Resident: did he ?
Dash Earthboy: well that's how people think where i live :(
FcSeeker Resident: I think that disciples have created the concept
milakel Resident: student - late 14c., from O.Fr. estudient "one who is studying," from M.L. studiare "to study," from L. studium
Storm Nordwind wonders whether that's actually a shortcut for not thinking!
FcSeeker Resident: that people choose to become the disciple ...
Dash Earthboy: one dare not speak of the Buddha's disciples here
milakel Resident: so disciples learn and students study :)
Dash Earthboy: :)
FcSeeker Resident: why not
FcSeeker Resident: that was just the same with Buddha
Storm Nordwind: The two do not necessarily happen together! ;)
FcSeeker Resident: people came to him to learn from him...asking him to teach
FcSeeker Resident: your so right Storm
FcSeeker Resident: can be huge different to be either the disciple or the student
Dash Earthboy: i'll drink to that

A form of dropping?

milakel Resident: storm, do you think appreciation of what you already have can be a form of dropping leading to happiness as you mentioned earlier?
Dash Earthboy: one thing i learned early in life was that what makes others happy doesn't always make me happy
Storm Nordwind: I think appreciation of 'what is' is dropping. That way you don't see it as what you have, just what is around you. It's not you, it's just associated with you for the moment.
Dash Earthboy: so what i have was always appreciated
FcSeeker Resident: now this baby panda misses the grass....
Dash Earthboy: nice cool grass :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: do you have a bamboo forest too ?
FcSeeker Resident: sadly not

Defined by our possessions? And long hair?

milakel Resident: storm, well, our possesions do define us :)
FcSeeker Resident: in fact I bought the winter garden by so called accedent
Storm Nordwind: You may think they do for you Mila. I don't feel they do for me!
FcSeeker Resident: but people have liked it also
Dash Earthboy: mila, pls ref lesson 10 on those 29 life lessons we've discussed
milakel Resident: there's a reason why you prefer long hair compared to a short cut
milakel Resident: or why you do this or that
Storm Nordwind: Prefer? No. I'm just lazy!
milakel Resident: :)
milakel Resident: well, explicit or not, it is an expression of our consciousness
Dash Earthboy: i don't define myself by my possessions, nor do i want others to define me that way
FcSeeker Resident: it is said that when the person cut her/his hair, s/he punishes her/himself
Dash Earthboy: i still appreciate what i have
Dash Earthboy: and take care of it as well as i can
Storm Nordwind: (I haven't had my hair cut for more than 12 years! :)
milakel Resident: dash, yes, i don't either, but that's how people get clues about others
milakel Resident: otherwise we could just be blobs of mist like sometimes in sl
Dash Earthboy: yes, mila, i applied that reasoning in my home visits as a social worker
milakel Resident: 12 years! wow :)
Storm Nordwind: 13 it seems. Not good with maths this morning!
milakel Resident: i suppose it would be a very hard decision for you now to cut them
Yakuzza Lethecus: saves a lot of money, but needs more time and attention in that way i guess :)
Dash Earthboy: nice to be able to let hair grow...like Samson :)
Storm Nordwind: No not really Mila
Storm Nordwind: Saves money. Doesn't take much attention either.
milakel Resident: :)
Storm Nordwind: I don't think about it.
milakel Resident: i like my hair to look nice and often look in a mirror :)
Dash Earthboy: vanity?
Storm Nordwind: Many women do ;)
milakel Resident: can't drop it, sorry :)

A story about hair and teaching.

FcSeeker Resident: may I tell a story
Yakuzza Lethecus listens
Storm Nordwind: But of course Fc! :)
--BELL--
FcSeeker Resident: I spent time a lot for years with such women who worried her hair all the time; she checked it almost all the time touching it some way and felt embarresed even it was nice all the time. Once I asked her that why she does that even it seems to bother her...that she didn't touch it with joy, but as destrubed
FcSeeker Resident: then she told how she had been the teacher and how it is so important to the teacher to look well
FcSeeker Resident: then I said to her that your no teacher anymore and besize, your hair looks always nice
Dash Earthboy: i believe that as a teacher Socrates' appearance was not very impressive
FcSeeker Resident: she let herself to relax of that and stopped 'fixing' her hair with her hand and stopped to worry for it
FcSeeker Resident: end of the story

Consequences of appearance.

Dash Earthboy: so appearance being important is a choice and either way has consequences
FcSeeker Resident: yes
milakel Resident: i think looking good is a common "preference" in a our society
Storm Nordwind: perhaps she had compassion and cared for her students, so that they might learn despite their prejudices
Dash Earthboy: like smoking cigarettes
Dash Earthboy: ref to Mila's comment: like smoking cigarettes
FcSeeker Resident: she did, but Sweden canceld much teacher's work and she was one of them who lost her work forever
milakel Resident: also, interesting from the fc's story. do you stop being a teacher (or other prefession) after you quit or retire?
Storm Nordwind: I am sorry to hear that Fc
FcSeeker Resident: ah; I'm no teacher
Storm Nordwind: No Mila you don't stop. Teaching is a calling as well as a profession.
FcSeeker Resident: and she stopped to be the teacher
Dash Earthboy: one of my mantras: everybody is somebody's role model whether you want to be or not

Something for one's self.

FcSeeker Resident: instead of that she became a disciple to spiritual things
milakel Resident: but her hair still look good? :)
Dash Earthboy: :)
Storm Nordwind: Yes Fc. There can come a time when one says "now for me, not just others!"
FcSeeker Resident: it does
Dash Earthboy: doing what one enjoys as "work" is a reward to oneself anyway
Storm Nordwind: then perhaps that is when work becomes play? :)
FcSeeker Resident: ah yes; the word 'work' also is 'cute' in a way
FcSeeker Resident: it normally means some doing for which one gets salary...
milakel Resident: depends on a project, storm :)
Dash Earthboy: might want to ask musicians about that Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: I fit into all those categories!
FcSeeker Resident: I know several people who feel themself as embarresed because they are payed for 'playing'...
Storm Nordwind: I work here without needing to worry about salary, and I enjoy it so it is play. And I'm a musician.
FcSeeker Resident: because they have got as the work what the love the most to do
Storm Nordwind: But when I worked for a salary, I enjoyed it too, and yes it was play - and i didn't feel embarassed
FcSeeker Resident: so you get payed for your play ?
Storm Nordwind: Always have Fc
Yakuzza Lethecus: not really :)
Dash Earthboy: i was in your position Storm until I was robbed several times
milakel Resident: ouch
FcSeeker Resident: (works almost round o'clock without any payment)
milakel Resident: being panda? :)
FcSeeker Resident: we can say so
Storm Nordwind: Me too Fc. I work harder now than I ever did when people paid me!
FcSeeker Resident: <3
--BELL--
FcSeeker Resident: there was time when musicians and actors worked on the streets and got very very little from people...today many of them earn milions...I have the faith that also helpers shall be payed better in the future
FcSeeker Resident: like it was a while ago, that the medicine woman/man lived outside the village or town; outside of all fun and so...were asked much help, but not given much....there's no so much change to that still
Storm Nordwind nods

Money for air.

milakel Resident: i like how you can sell air on wall street and get millions in bonuses
milakel Resident: smart folks
FcSeeker Resident: one way to live
Storm Nordwind: They can only sell if people are willing to buy.
FcSeeker Resident: or they who pays are stupidos
Yakuzza Lethecus: well if you rate something good and put an AAA on it ppl should buy *giggle*
FcSeeker Resident: laughs loudly
Dash Earthboy: i don't find "street smarts" any sign of intelligence, just survival skills
FcSeeker Resident: and even they get so much money that they can never spend, they want more and more...
Storm Nordwind: Quite so Dash. :) Just a platform for potentially developing intelligence
FcSeeker Resident: so it sure then is only survival, not living imo
milakel Resident: there's never enough, fc
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s not a job or work it´s a game for those ppl
Yakuzza Lethecus: they are junkies

Anyone from Wall Street here?

milakel Resident: do we have anyone from wall street in pab? :)
Storm Nordwind: I used to work in the City in London, in an investment bank. But that was 20 years ago!
FcSeeker Resident: and like one of my friend; the person can buy the diamond (very expencive) ring to their poor gf, but not food which she would prefere,,,
milakel Resident: fc, i think she doesn't mind :)
FcSeeker Resident: I thought that a lot and came to conclution that such man wants to rule very completely the gf...keeping her wishing of the better to come by time
Dash Earthboy: i clerked at a law firm that handled trust funds & investments
FcSeeker Resident: this girl I know does, but hopes
milakel Resident: ah, tricky
FcSeeker Resident: so you handled huge business
FcSeeker Resident: was you payed well for that ?
milakel Resident: banks pay crazy amounts for trivial work :)
Storm Nordwind: I was was paid crazy amounts for writing software that made automatic decisions on buying and selling large amounts of stocks and shares
Dash Earthboy: some places Mila, I guess
FcSeeker Resident: no wonder why I think that so many chiefs in the banks are robbers
Dash Earthboy: but here tellers make less than daycare center attendents
milakel Resident: oh, i meant for consultant work
FcSeeker Resident: but you worked for your incomes Storm and you also Dash
milakel Resident: not bank employees
Storm Nordwind: Yes I worked as a consultant
Dash Earthboy: ah...sry then
Dash Earthboy: i also worked as consultant, including to banks
FcSeeker Resident: that is working; that is to use your high knowledge and understanding
Dash Earthboy: trained bank folks on using software like Word Perfect
Storm Nordwind: But did it justify being paid $1000 a day? I doubt it.
Dash Earthboy: created a commercial loan analysis program for a small conglomerate of banks
milakel Resident: where is your private island, storm?
Storm Nordwind: In my ex-wife's custody Mila! ;)
milakel Resident: ouch :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: rofl
Dash Earthboy: i feel ya Storm
--BELL--

Justification for large salaries.

FcSeeker Resident: are those salaries to tennis and ice hockey players and F1 drivers justified ?
FcSeeker Resident: or those movie stars who dont even act; just are what they are...
Yakuzza Lethecus: Well as ppl of public interest they deserve a lot more!
Yakuzza Lethecus: we are all allowed to gossip about em
Yakuzza Lethecus: since they have that status
FcSeeker Resident: giggles
Storm Nordwind: The buyer/payer sets the salary and justification Fc
FcSeeker Resident: yes
FcSeeker Resident: hm
Dash Earthboy: here one does not need to be famous to be gossip fodder
Yakuzza Lethecus: Take sweden, mr kamprad
Storm Nordwind: If people want to throw money at me, fine, and I can always give it away again! :)
FcSeeker Resident: they set the salary...but do they truly set the justification also ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: that guy is the richest swede
Yakuzza Lethecus: but went to switzerland
Yakuzza Lethecus: in the 70th
Yakuzza Lethecus: no money for sweden
Yakuzza Lethecus: germany´s michael schuhmacher also went to switzerland
FcSeeker Resident: no wonder that Sweden got so poor
Storm Nordwind: The mountain air is good for them? ;)
milakel Resident: they don't like social democracy
FcSeeker Resident: the most likely because they wanted to move there :)
FcSeeker Resident: so rich can sure choose where to live
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think sweden is fine
FcSeeker Resident: it's not
FcSeeker Resident: anymore
Dash Earthboy: and yet some of my Swiss kin moved to New Zealand and Africa
Yakuzza Lethecus: gosh i am condamned to say so *giggle*
Dash Earthboy: those were the Swiss kin with money
milakel Resident: land of oz is a nice place
milakel Resident: except bugs
Yakuzza Lethecus: zealand :)
Dash Earthboy: Kansas?
Storm Nordwind appreciates anywhere with universal heathcare
Dash Earthboy: :)
milakel Resident: universal *public* healthcare? :)
Storm Nordwind: sure
FcSeeker Resident: <3
milakel Resident: well, you're in the wrong place then :)
Storm Nordwind: indeed
Storm Nordwind: except that my love lives here, so I do too

Micronations and far-flung colonies.

Yakuzza Lethecus: sorry i thought about sealand, someone tried to create his own micronation
milakel Resident: go up north to canada :)
Storm Nordwind: Canada wouldn't want a nere-do-well ruffian like me ;)
Storm Nordwind: *ne'er-do-well
milakel Resident: yaku, oh, i've always been fascinated with those tiny islands in the pacific oceans...
Dash Earthboy: micronesia?
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s in fact in front of england :)
FcSeeker Resident: aww
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand
FcSeeker Resident: my RL calls
Storm Nordwind waves
Yakuzza Lethecus: nice to have you here seeker
Dash Earthboy: bye Fc
FcSeeker Resident: takes a humble bow
FcSeeker Resident: namaste
Yakuzza Lethecus: namaste
milakel Resident: eh, can't find that british island that is in the middle of the pacific ocean
Yakuzza Lethecus: there is still a national british island in the pacific ?
milakel Resident: ah! pitcairn islands!
Storm Nordwind: Pitcairn
milakel Resident: read a story about the bounty and mutiny - quite interesting
Dash Earthboy: good to learn...that's what my hungry mind enjoys :)
Dash Earthboy: and now my hungry stomach needs fed too :)
Dash Earthboy: bid y'all a good day
Storm Nordwind waves
Storm Nordwind is reminded to go bake bread
--BELL--

Goodbye with a tease.

milakel Resident: i'm off folks
milakel Resident: thank you :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: me too
Yakuzza Lethecus: cya mila
Storm Nordwind: Good to see you
Storm Nordwind: Bye!
milakel Resident: my hair look ok? :)
Storm Nordwind: No
milakel Resident: :P