2011.05.01 13:00 - Memes and thoughts

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

This session seemed to meander around knowledge and its preservation, then culture-bound thoughts or memes, and then to various kinds of thoughts, distractions, and how to approach and consider them.  

Archmage Atlantis: Hello, Maxine
Maxine Walden: hi, Arch, nice to see you!
Archmage Atlantis: I have questions I wish to ask you
Maxine Walden: oh, please do!
Archmage Atlantis: Why has this sim survived, while others have died
Archmage Atlantis: Perfect Paradise seems to be ending
Maxine Walden: I may not be able to answer this completely, but yes, at the beginning there was much enthusiasm, and perhaps some over-extending re number of sims and SL land, etc and when the need for consolidation made itself apparent, we did what we needed to do to downsize, and still be able to carry on the mission of PaB.
Maxine Walden: I don't see it as paradise ending, but perhaps you do?
Maxine Walden: Have you experienced the reduction of enthusiasm in other ways?
Archmage Atlantis: My sim of Alexandria Novus, I could not support it........3D promised to keep it alive
Maxine Walden: ah!
Maxine Walden: and what happened?
Archmage Atlantis: I see it as Paradise beginning
Maxine Walden: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Let me dig in my inventory and find a card
Maxine Walden: OK
Archmage Atlantis: I hope that was the one, or at least one that will give you a flavor of he idea
Maxine Walden: thanks, Arch, yes the notecard gives me a good idea of the Alex Novus project
Maxine Walden: Has 3D helped to keep it alive?
Archmage Atlantis: I don't know....
Archmage Atlantis: He stepped in with belief
Maxine Walden: I see. Was this Alex novus project your own creation, your own Paradise?
Maxine Walden: hi, Zon
Zon Kwan: hi both
Archmage Atlantis: My project yes, my paradise no
Maxine Walden: :)
Maxine Walden: Would you care to mention to Zon what we have been talking about?
Archmage Atlantis: Sure, np
Archmage Atlantis: Zon, I came into SL the second time to foster an idea of the way knowledge acquired by humans might be preserved
Archmage Atlantis: Let me turn on the typing animation, one moment
Zon Kwan: knowledge preserved ?
Zon Kwan: how
Archmage Atlantis: Yes....that we find a way to create a path to what we have experienced, and think we have learned, to those beings that come in the future
Archmage Atlantis: The point of the library was to find the "how"
Zon Kwan: how sl can help in that
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: Memes is the best answer I have to date.......expressing an idea gives it life
Zon Kwan: and have u reached ur objectives ?
Archmage Atlantis: I have not even been able to define my objectives, Zon
Zon Kwan: ah..work underway...
Archmage Atlantis: Hello bother from another mother
Maxine Walden: hi, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, everyone. This is fascinating... please continue.
Zon Kwan: bruce
Maxine Walden: we seem to be talking about memes, (whose definition I had to refresh for myself just now)
Bruce Mowbray: Cultural memes or personal memes? or both?
Maxine Walden: but perhaps also what constitutes knowledge, which may be different for each of us, if experience is part of what generates knowledge?
Bruce Mowbray recalls Richard Dawkins' "The Selfish Meme"
Zon Kwan: meme= idea ?
Maxine Walden: (I am also aware that as goc, I should be keeping as close to our personal here and now experience as possible....here in our discussion)
Maxine Walden: think so, Zon
Bruce Mowbray: meme = some image embedded in cultural (or personal) memory -- like Mickey Mouse
Bruce Mowbray: or the logo for Coco-cola.
Zon Kwan: so an idea ?
Bruce Mowbray: Coca-Cola* (sry)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, an idea that lasts.
Archmage Atlantis: I find the sign board with Pema as a ......well I find the sign board distracting
Maxine Walden: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Pema as Buddha and Christos
Bruce Mowbray: Well, you could move your camera around (as I have) and not see the signboard. . .
Archmage Atlantis: I could
Bruce Mowbray: (but the image-memory-meme will still be there, of course).
Maxine Walden: maybe we are also thinking about how out attention might select in the process of 'creating' a meme. What we pay attention to and what we choose not to (like the sign board)
Maxine Walden: our attention
Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Maxine. . . but I think that memes have the 'power' to distract us from other sensory experiences...
Bruce Mowbray: the sort of take over our perceptions...
Bruce Mowbray: and that, of course, is the whole idea of advertising --
Maxine Walden: yes, if we let them, those distractions do so, perhaps?
Bruce Mowbray: to get you to see one thing but not another.
Maxine Walden: but don't we have choice about what distracts/attracts us?
Archmage Atlantis: And the original writings were of seeing what is, not what is presented
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps we have conscious choice -- and can also employ mindfulness techniques...
Bruce Mowbray: but the meme itself is quite selfish...
Bruce Mowbray: It wants to be seen and noticed.
Maxine Walden: looking at the upcoming pause...can we ponder the selfish meme and our choices around that? Or see what comes to mind in the pause?
Bruce Mowbray: sure! excellent suggestion.
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Maxine......I will be going after the pause
Maxine Walden: (the task of the goc, wouldn't you know!)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Maxine Walden: ah, nice to have you here, Arch
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Arch. Enjoy .
Archmage Atlantis: Blessings and Namaste
Zon Kwan: bye arch
Wol Euler: hello everyone
Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
Maxine Walden: hi, wol and bleu, nice to see you both
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Bleu and Wol!
Zon Kwan: hi gals
Bleu Oleander: back from NYC Wol?
Wol Euler: yes, this morning
Bleu Oleander: wb!
Wol Euler: ty
Bleu Oleander: fun?
Wol Euler: yes, but hard work too :)
Wol Euler: it's a relentless city
Wol Euler: boxy
Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Bleu Oleander: hey boxy
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Boxy!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza!
Maxine Walden: wondering how to mention what we were pondering during the pause, without getting too wordy...but we may be moving on. Bruce or Zon, did you want to mention anything from the pause?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :)
Maxine Walden: Hi, Alf and Eliza
Zon Kwan: eliza
Maxine Walden: so nice to see you both
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza :)
Zon Kwan: alf
Bruce Mowbray: during the pause, we contemplated "memes" and how they get their 'power" --
Wol Euler: hello eliza
Bruce Mowbray: (or that's what I contemplated, anyway).
Wol Euler: :)
Bruce Mowbray: and it occurs to me that memes that are repeated often -
Bruce Mowbray: or that happen when we are emptionally stressed (good or bad)-
Bruce Mowbray: seem to have the most lasting value.
Bruce Mowbray: (So, advertisers, take note!)
Zon Kwan: yes--repetitionmakes thing real
Bleu Oleander thinks advertisers already know that :)
Bruce Mowbray: How was the pause for you, Zon and Maxine?
Maxine Walden: Interesting point, Bruce, maybe when we are emotionally stressed we are a little/or a lot off balance and thus more susceptilbe to memes/distractions/adverts, etc
Zon Kwan: wondered why do we nned the notion of meme..why not just a thougt or idea
Zon Kwan: its a thougth form i guess
Bruce Mowbray: meme is a special sort of thought/idea, Zon.
Zon Kwan: how
Bleu Oleander: a thought that goes viral
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Here's a thought experiment. . .
Zon Kwan: so a srtong thought form
Maxine Walden: As goc, during a pause, as this last one, I always feel a little distracted with my 'job' of goc, sort of like I need to gather things, focus attention, etc. It is a little distracting to me to have that 'should' in mind :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Maxine Walden: maybe the goc meme
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: Think of a sort drink. . .
Bruce Mowbray: soft****
Bruce Mowbray: drink
Bruce Mowbray: I'd be willing to bet that you didn't think of just any generic soft drink.
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: I'd bet that you thought of a specific brand...
Bruce Mowbray: and THAT would be an example of meme.
Bruce Mowbray: omg!
Maxine Walden: (I tried to think of a thought of a sort drink
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Bruce Mowbray: I'm seeing a meme of Boxy!
Alfred Kelberry: ignore me, i'm trying to fix my shape :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Maxine Walden: the original boxy coming back?
Bleu Oleander: hard to ignore boxy .... very entertaining :)
Bruce Mowbray: The thing is -- memes are "selfish" in that they try to crowd out other possibilities from your awareness.
Alfred Kelberry: :P
Maxine Walden: yes :))
Alfred Kelberry: don't look! :)
Zon Kwan: hm..a strong specific thought form
Maxine Walden: haha, hard not to, boxy
Bleu Oleander: translation: look
Bruce Mowbray: and - similar to genes - they try to reproduce themselves.
Zon Kwan: like all ideas
Zon Kwan: ideas r energy
Zon Kwan: they float around us
Zon Kwan: and we cpature them
Bruce Mowbray listens - for a change.
Maxine Walden: :)
Zon Kwan: and if our mind is weak
Maxine Walden: thoughts without a thinker?
Zon Kwan: we pick it up
Zon Kwan: and it takes us
Zon Kwan: in possession
Zon Kwan: we r possesed
Zon Kwan: then
Zon Kwan: where do thoughts rise
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: ALFRED!
Zon Kwan: do we receive them or create them or are they created by collective mind
Bruce Mowbray: Steve Jobs "created" the Apple Corporation logo -- and now it's in the collective mind.
Eliza Madrigal: are e making alfred fidget or is he doing it on his own? :)
Bruce Mowbray: (if there is such a thing as a collective mind).
Wol Euler smiles.
Zon Kwan: how many of our daily thoughts are ours
Bruce Mowbray thinks: Doggie longlegs.
Maxine Walden: :))
Alfred Kelberry: shhh
Alfred Kelberry: i'm not here :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Alfred Kelberry: woly is helping me to debug the problem
Maxine Walden: :)) we are not possessed by watching alf, not possessed...
Wol Euler grins.
Eliza Madrigal: fleas?
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Bruce Mowbray: Not a single one of "my" thoughts are "mine" -- if by that question you mean that thoughts are "things."
Bleu Oleander: are thoughts physical?
Zon Kwan: whose thogth r they `
Zon Kwan: thougths are forms
Bruce Mowbray: no -- although there might be physical indicators that a thought is happening.
Zon Kwan: patterns
Zon Kwan: so they r material
Maxine Walden: perhaps some are 'concrete' filling the screen with 'what is' ; but others it seems to me are very symbolic, thinking about something, lyrical even...
Bruce Mowbray: how so, Zon?
Zon Kwan: all that can have a form is material
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Maxine, or even mythical. . .
Maxine Walden: hmm
Zon Kwan: thougth substance
Eliza Madrigal: taking up different amounts of 'room'?
Zon Kwan: not stone
Zon Kwan: or water
Zon Kwan: or air
Bruce Mowbray: a selfish meme wants to take up all the 'room' it can.
Maxine Walden: and taking up different intensities or qualities of attetnion
Zon Kwan: matter is energy--thougth are energies
Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh! Wonderful!
Bruce Mowbray: And is that "attention" (intense and qualified) real?
Zon Kwan: all is real
Bruce Mowbray: Alfred poofed.
Maxine Walden: the entwining of strands of thought about thought....so intriguing these discussions
Wol Euler: clearing cache
Bleu Oleander: Alfred's not real?
Zon Kwan: he is
Zon Kwan: we see him
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: Al is clearing his cache of memes, perhaps.
Maxine Walden: :)
Bleu Oleander: clogged cache
Bruce Mowbray: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: in part , maybe thought watching explorations help us to notice that most thoughts don't actually take up any room or require any response...
Zon Kwan: to see them as things
Maxine Walden: care to say more, Eliza?
Zon Kwan: passing
Eliza Madrigal: like the birds in the trees or the breeze blowing by....
Zon Kwan: like clouds
Maxine Walden: part of the background of our experience, passingly
Zon Kwan: rising
Zon Kwan: going
Eliza Madrigal nods... environment
Zon Kwan: i heard a nice idea how to approach thoughts
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: Lovely discussion for a Sunday afternoon with friends...I will need to go with the pause...see you all again soon...
Bruce Mowbray: How's that, Zon?
Zon Kwan: one could pay attention on what will the next thougth be
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Maxine!
Bleu Oleander: bye Maxine
Zon Kwan: bye max
Eliza Madrigal waves
Maxine Walden: bye all
Wol Euler: bye mxine, take care
Wol Euler: *maxine
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Maxine
Zon Kwan: try it
Zon Kwan: during next pause
Zon Kwan: what is my next thought
Zon Kwan: wait for it to appear
Zon Kwan: and i noticed
Zon Kwan: it didnt appear
Eliza Madrigal: :) watched pot never boils?
Bruce Mowbray: so then, your mind was "empty" in the waiting for a next idea that never came?
Zon Kwan: only after attention is not there
Zon Kwan: the tought appears
Eliza Madrigal: very fun, thanks Zon
Zon Kwan: i liked it
Eliza Madrigal: I have to get going too.... nice to pop in
Zon Kwan: me 2
Zon Kwan: nite all
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Eliza.
Bruce Mowbray: I also need to go. . .
Eliza Madrigal: thanks guys, bye
Wol Euler: bye eliza, bruce
Wol Euler: take care
Bleu Oleander: me too
Wol Euler: bye bleu :)
Wol Euler: bye zon
Bleu Oleander: bye all take care
Bruce Mowbray: see you all later!
Wol Euler: anyone still here?