2011.05.14 19:00 - A Friendly Conversation about Friendly Conversations

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Paradise
stevenaia Michinaga: Hokon
Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Korii
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pema
Hokon Cazalet: hi pema and korii
Pema Pera: hi Steve, Korii, Hokon, Paradise!
Paradise Tennant: hiya hokon .. stev .. pema korii :))
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Paradise Tennant: smiles ..
Pema Pera: quite a nice flying horse, Korii :)
Pema Pera: Pegasus?
Korii Tiger: ありがとう
Pema Pera: you're welcome :-)
Pema Pera wondering whether he is still dreaming
stevenaia Michinaga: still training it to sit
Paradise Tennant: smiles trying for a pic of the beautiful beings here tonight :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: angelic horses :-)
Korii Tiger: i broke my cam
Pema Pera: nice breeze, Korri :-)
Pema Pera: *Korii
stevenaia Michinaga: Korii's is more refined :)
Korii Tiger: grrr
Korii Tiger: brb
Pema Pera: Thank you, Paradise!

Steve referred back to an email discussion we had about an interesting article on the web, that Bleu had found: http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge342.html

stevenaia Michinaga: Pema, in the discussion of "reasoning is mostly arguing", have you found dialogues such as what occurs here unusual?
Pema Pera: yes, rather unusual
Pema Pera: how about you?
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps unusual isn't the correct word
stevenaia Michinaga: by my nature I try to listen more then defend
Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Pema Pera: hi Alfred
stevenaia Michinaga: hi boxy
Alfred Kelberry: stev, wise :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles hello barksy :)
stevenaia Michinaga: although most political discussion tend to be less reason, more argument
Pema Pera: but have you found many groups where, as a group, people tend to really listen carefully to each other?
Pema Pera: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: never saw the point
stevenaia Michinaga: rarely, pema
Pema Pera: trying to convince the other, but in the process putting off more often than succeeding :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: preople seem to draw lines
Pema Pera: it reminds me of the story of the four winds
stevenaia Michinaga: ...listens
Paradise Tennant: smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pema Pera: who did a competition to try to let a lonely traveler loose his coat, by blowing ferociously
Pema Pera: each one tried blowing even harder than the previous one
Pema Pera: but the traveler kept hanging on to his coat, against all the odds
Pema Pera: so they finally gave up
--BELL--
Pema Pera: but then the sun smiled
Pema Pera: came out and started shining
Pema Pera: and the man took off his coat all by himself :-)

I had heard this story from Stim, years ago, and it has lend itself as an illustration for quote a few occasions!

Pema Pera: hi Druth
Alfred Kelberry: good one, pema :)
Paradise Tennant: hiya druth :)
Alfred Kelberry: druth :)
druth Vlodovic: hi
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Druth
Hokon Cazalet: hiya druth =)
Paradise Tennant: find it much easier to reach consensus by written communication .. for some reason writing slows people down
Paradise Tennant: what they communicate is more considered
Alfred Kelberry: it's difficult to stay on the subject at hand when an argument happens :)
Pema Pera: yes, Paradise, that's why I also prefer texting over voice in SL
Alfred Kelberry: you start to take things personally and your ego grows
stevenaia Michinaga: if you listen, eventually people make their point.... and the conversation can continue
Pema Pera: for an argument to be useful, first all sides have to find common ground -- and that takes time and listening -- and only then can we focus on whether there are any read difference
Pema Pera: yes, that too, Steve!
druth Vlodovic: it can help start by agreeing with people and asking for clairification of points, people prefer to explain to a sympathetic audience
stevenaia Michinaga: usual, if there are enough viewpoints, like a chinese menu, a better solution will emerge from a combination of thoughts *(synergy)
Pema Pera: yes and yes :)
Pema Pera: many conversations start out with the players responding to previous others in previous conversations . . . not directly understandable in the current context
Pema Pera: takes time to put that aside
stevenaia Michinaga: exciting things happen through combinatins and the "line" moves forward
Alfred Kelberry: i think what's important is to focus on, not even the problem, but solution. it doesn't let the conversation go awry and selfish.
stevenaia Michinaga: it becomes more interesting to all, as opposed to the one talking, when the dialogue becomes an education to all rather than a defence of reasons too
Alfred Kelberry: *just read* i like all the comments :)
Alfred Kelberry: sympathetic audience, chinese menu... nice :)
Pema Pera: yes, Steve, very much so
Pema Pera: interestingly, by trying to understand the other, rather than arguing against, you're also more likely to convince :-)
Hokon Cazalet: yeah ive noticed that myself, i get a lot farther by entering the other's world, then show them how they can reach where i'm at; even if they dont want to go there, they have a road now

Steve brought up a typical adversial pattern.

stevenaia Michinaga: I often read the NYT science section where new ideas are often greated not by sckpticism, but disbelief by those who's ideas they displace
stevenaia Michinaga: seems like a very inefficient ego based process
Paradise Tennant: excuses herself for a few moments (dog is crying to go out )
stevenaia Michinaga: people busy "owning" ideas
stevenaia Michinaga: instead of opening eyes wider then they have been
Pema Pera: yes, everybody ensconcing in their own castle
stevenaia Michinaga: where is that "insecurity" from?
stevenaia Michinaga: the castle sydrome
Pema Pera: inner hurt that is not acknowlegded?
Pema Pera: and therefore projected outwards as a danger to be protected from?
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: everntually most "new ideas" become old and are displaces or updated, seems people should figure out that ideas are never static and should be built upon and changed to enrich the idea, instead of rejecting anthing that changes it
stevenaia Michinaga: *eventually
Pema Pera: your question is a very good one, though: why do people not do the obvious, as you just outlined
Pema Pera: my best guess is that it is hard to be really open, since we tend to hide our own hurt
stevenaia Michinaga: seems their original idea did exactly that
Pema Pera: and when we open up, we have to face our own pain and suffering too -- can't cover them over anymore
Pema Pera: takes quite a bit of courage
druth Vlodovic: peopleoften use words to create and defend status and worth, to challenge an idea is to challenge a person and their worth
stevenaia Michinaga: perhapsthe hurt they are initially faced with their original idea would feel more pointless if their idea was replaced or changed
Pema Pera: yes, too much tight identifcation (@ Druth)
Pema Pera: it may be deeper, though, Steve
Pema Pera: perhaps not so much the hurt connected with the idea at hand
Pema Pera: but deeper hurt, over a lifetime, that has created a habit of half-hiding
Pema Pera: and acting out of defense rather than being really open
stevenaia Michinaga: when I work in groups seeking solutions, the better solution comes from all parties, usually not really know which piece blongs to who, like mushing colored clay together, eventually all colors merge into a new color
stevenaia Michinaga: ( (into gray unfortunately)
Pema Pera: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: but a better gray soltion

That brought back memories from my high school days . . . :

Pema Pera: "a whiter shade of pale"
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pema Pera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb3iPP-tHdA
stevenaia Michinaga: saw Procol Harum once ..... a long time ago
Pema Pera: oh, that must have been fun! How was it?
stevenaia Michinaga: excellent
Pema Pera: btw, I have to leave a bit early today, meeting somebody for lunch here in Tokyo
Pema Pera: trying to juggle many different projects at the same time
Pema Pera: (astrophysics, computer science, mathematics, philosophy :-)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Pema Pera: hard to choose . . . .
Pema Pera: so trying to do them all
stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like a very long and interesting lunch
Pema Pera: and wondering why I can't find time to sleep (or eat sometimes)
Alfred Kelberry: pema, wait for the sun to rise :)
druth Vlodovic: if only you could integrate, then you'd only need to study one thing
Pema Pera: not all at once :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pema Pera: well, I'm trying, Druth -- but it's becoming a very big one thing :-)
druth Vlodovic: or would that go from steve's technicolour to grey
Pema Pera: called "aspects of Being" (^_^)
--BELL--
Pema Pera: (I'll have to leave now, see you all soon again!)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye pema

Just when I was leaving, a couple uncouth characters dropped by, clearly griefers, and Steve took care of them.

stevenaia Michinaga: had to eject them, sorry
Hokon Cazalet: no im glad you ejected them
stevenaia Michinaga: for the record, they are my first

One of them reappeared quickly, cursing and asking why the ejecting, so Steve responded:

stevenaia Michinaga: I guess banning comes next
stevenaia Michinaga: because we prefer not to have a distruptive presence here
Alfred Kelberry: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: gone but not forgotten
stevenaia Michinaga: I'll edit their names out of the log, I mean pema will...giggles
stevenaia Michinaga: interesting how they come in and proved the point about argument, in this case a one sided argument that no one could or was intersted in responding too
druth Vlodovic: "don't feed the trolls"
Hokon Cazalet: yeah sorry bout that
stevenaia Michinaga: sorry about what Hokon?
Hokon Cazalet: eh sparring with them, though it seems they didnt reply to me anyways, so i guess no harm this time
Paradise Tennant: smiles :)
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: 'night guys
Paradise Tennant: good nite druth sweet dreams :)
stevenaia Michinaga: night Druth
Hokon Cazalet: goodnigty =)
stevenaia Michinaga: kinda quiet here without a distuptive presences

Comments by Stevenaia:  

Although quiet as we appear, there was a secondary conversation within the "playasbinghere" Group that continued off screen (I did eventually share it with Hokon, realizing later that Hokon was not aware of this conversation and had just seen "quiet".)  With that I inserted the dialogue here, as you can see it took place late in the session after I first ejected both of the offenders and them banned another...

[19:53]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): attention is what they feed on. sit quietly for a bit and they'll be gone :)

[19:54]  stevenaia Michinaga: in this case I booted their asses out :) not my nature but... sometimes....

[19:55]  druth Vlodovic: 'naia the barbarian!  GHURR!

[19:55]  Paradise Tennant: lol  boy i  go out to walk the dog and looks  what happens :)

[19:55]  stevenaia Michinaga: hehe, this too shall pass

[19:56]  Samúð (oo0oo): you smile para?

[19:56]  Paradise Tennant: smiles  always :)

[19:56]  Samúð (oo0oo): :)

[19:56]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): stev, that was reactive :) you should have just waited :)

[19:56]  Samúð (oo0oo): like the sun rises.. so does para smile

[19:57]  stevenaia Michinaga: if pema didn;t suggest it to me before he left, I may have waited a little longer, he seems to have seen them coming

[19:58]  druth Vlodovic: <sniff> that was my second time at a griefing in PaB and I never got to ban anybody!  wah!

[19:58]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): hehe

[19:58]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): ok, next time let druth press the big red button :)

[19:59]  Samúð (oo0oo): hehehe... /me missed all the bare knuckles action!

[19:59]  Paradise Tennant: I could misbehave druth ?  have never been ejected ?  would be my first :)

[19:59]  stevenaia Michinaga: time to step up to be a guardian at a meeting Druth......hands Druth the timeslot of her choice

[19:59]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): para! :)

[19:59]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'd like to see para misbehaving ;)

[20:00]  druth Vlodovic: oh right, "with great power comes..."

[20:00]  Samúð (oo0oo) pushes the big button on boxy's nose

[20:00]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): ...the big red button :)

[20:00]  stevenaia Michinaga: am ready with the camera

[20:00]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): sam :)

[20:00]  stevenaia Michinaga: smiles at Samúð

[20:01]  Samúð (oo0oo): PaBers... we iz lolcats ats heart

[20:01]  stevenaia Michinaga: I may have to put this dialogue in the comments of the post, if nobody minds minds

[20:01]  druth Vlodovic: bummer

[20:02]  Samúð (oo0oo): what a nice thouht... an instant network of support

[20:03]  Samúð (oo0oo): wherever you are

[20:03]  Paradise Tennant: it is   isn't  :)  I guess that is why people  like tweeting :)

[20:03]  Paradise Tennant: there are instant reponses

[20:03]  Paradise Tennant: the dalai lama  tweets :)

[20:04]  Samúð (oo0oo): he can be in our support group

[20:04]  stevenaia Michinaga: he is in Newark NJ this week at a peace conference

[20:05]  stevenaia Michinaga: note, there is a hugh lag in this chat, some comments may not appear in the place where they were typed (I have been informed)

........inserted from Druth's IM to me

      [20:03]  druth Vlodovic: the "bummer" comment is totally misplaced, I was just thinking the same thing before you said it

The conversation returns to the Playgota

Paradise Tennant: smiles :)
Paradise Tennant: funny how you happen sometimes on things that make you blink - disruptive or not disruptive :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles was having lunch with my mom last week .. sitting at a sunny table and notices she was wearing more earrings per ear than I do .. kind of makes you wonder when your mom has more body piercings than you do :)
Paradise Tennant: being observant is somethings we so often forget especially with those we really know well :)
stevenaia Michinaga: is she trying to quit smoking?...looking for rational explanation
Paradise Tennant: no she is just with it :)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe i like the comment about your mom paradise =), sorry im slow to respond atm
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Paradise Tennant: was kind of taken aback .. thought hey when did that happen .. I see her every week ..
Paradise Tennant: just not really looking I guess
Paradise Tennant: so easy .. for that to happen ..
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: I seem to be levitating tonight... and typing forever
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: could be worst things :)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I could think I'm levitating
Paradise Tennant: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: needed a soft landing
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Paradise Tennant: we are a quiet group tonight :)
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Paradise Tennant: funny how it is nice just to sit together :) do not need to talk really :)
stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.ted.com/talks/ron_gutman_...f_smiling.html
stevenaia Michinaga: speaking of smiles
Paradise Tennant: perfect :)
Paradise Tennant: wow this is great stev ..
stevenaia Michinaga: posted to me by a former guardian
--BELL--
Paradise Tennant: 1 smile = 2000 bars of chocolate in terms of brain simulation wonder what laughing does :)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Paradise Tennant: smiles !
Paradise Tennant: smiles thank you for your company hokon ... barksy .. stev and for the conversation :) and the great link on smiling :) but getting a little sleepy here so going to say good nite
stevenaia Michinaga: night PAradise, sweet dreams
Hokon Cazalet: byebyes paradise =)
Hokon Cazalet: ☻
Paradise Tennant: :)
--BELL--
Hokon Cazalet: i gotta head to bed folks, got work tomorrow
stevenaia Michinaga: me too jsut did a big yawn
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: night and thanks for the company
Hokon Cazalet waves
stevenaia Michinaga: night
stevenaia Michinaga: night boxy
Hokon Cazalet: night boxy =)
Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^