2011.05.14 13:00 - Forgiving

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Arch gtsy
Archmage Atlantis: gtsy Aph, as I canot see myself
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) not yet? or not ever?
Archmage Atlantis: In this phase of time, of course
Aphrodite Macbain: ah good.
Archmage Atlantis: Yet, never, and ever
Archmage Atlantis: strong thoughts
Aphrodite Macbain: What's on your mind today?
Archmage Atlantis: strong words
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, I thought I'd ask what is on people's minds today
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Aphrodite, Arch, Ewan :)
Archmage Atlantis: The future of this which we choose to call humanity
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Sharon
Ewan Bonham: Hi Folks!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Ewan, great to see you again
Archmage Atlantis: The great poets
Archmage Atlantis: The imagineers
Ewan Bonham: hi Aphro..
SophiaSharon Larnia: imagineers I love that word
Archmage Atlantis: The -prophets
Aphrodite Macbain: The working group was thinking it might be nice to find out what's on people's minds, what is bugging them or of interest to them
Archmage Atlantis: The insane
Aphrodite Macbain: with the purpose of organizing some theme sessions around them
Archmage Atlantis: You asked Aph, and I told you
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Arch: the future of the world and the insane
Archmage Atlantis: okir
SophiaSharon Larnia: i'm here so infrequently at times, id have to get back into the swing of things to answer that Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: What's of interest to you SophiaSharon?
Aphrodite Macbain: in your own life for instance- RL
SophiaSharon Larnia: i have thoughts in mind atm, but none really suitable for a theme session, really
Archmage Atlantis: In the past, those who had visions were considered insane.......till Disney made that thinking safe as cartoons
Aphrodite Macbain: Right now I'm interested how to effectively communicate, allowing others to have space
Ewan Bonham: Yes, and there are many types of Vision..
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Ewan
Aphrodite Macbain: a vision for the world- perhaps Utopian visions
SophiaSharon Larnia: this forum is pretty good for that aph
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, the idea was topics to be discussed within these forums
Archmage Atlantis: I offered mine, others will have to offer theirs, Ms Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: One of my bigget challenges is communicating authentically without an agenda
Archmage Atlantis: VG
Aphrodite Macbain: OK Arch. Perhaps you can elaborate on one of your offerings
 

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Wester :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Wester, there's a seat next to Arch
Wester Kiranov: hi all.

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi GAya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Gaya
 

Archmage Atlantis: I do not see a world without an agenda
Archmage Atlantis: We carry our own inside us
Archmage Atlantis: We are more or less aware of it
Aphrodite Macbain: Can you explain - is the agenda yours or the world's Arch?
Archmage Atlantis: Sometimes more, sometimes less
Wester Kiranov: sorry I sat on you arch
Archmage Atlantis: Hey, np, contact, even virtual contact is enjoyed (Wester almost sits on Arch)
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: We are raising some issues that are preoccupying us so we can use them for discussion
 

Archmage Atlantis: I have been listening to a song a lot
Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
Archmage Atlantis: I can hear it, but I cannot quote it........"she tied you to your kitchen chair"....."she broke your throne"......"I've seen this room, I've walked this floor?
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like Leonard Cohen
SophiaSharon Larnia: Jeff Buckley - Hallelujah
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, it was Aph, but not the version
Aphrodite Macbain: what do you think the song means?
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Buckley
Archmage Atlantis: agree
Ewan Bonham: It feels to me like oppression..
Aphrodite Macbain: I've only heard Leonard's gravelly voice singing it
Archmage Atlantis: To me, it mean life begins again
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting- such different interpreations!
Archmage Atlantis: Both, out of oppression, we begain again
Ewan Bonham: Yes a rebirth..
Aphrodite Macbain: She tied you to a kitchen chair she broke your throne, she cut your hair, and from your lips she drew the Hallelujah!
Aphrodite Macbain: rebirth every second we breathe
Archmage Atlantis: When I was a child I memorized a poem to say to my English Lit Class
Aphrodite Macbain listens
Aphrodite Macbain: can you still remember it?
Archmage Atlantis: This is how it began
Archmage Atlantis: THE ROYAL feast was done; the King Sought some new sport to banish care, And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool, Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!" The Fool's Prayer by Edward Rowland Sill. 1841–1887
Archmage Atlantis: It continued
Archmage Atlantis: The jester doffed his cap and bells, And stood the mocking court before; They could not see the bitter smile Behind the painted grin he wore He bowed his head, and bent his knee Upon the monarch's silken stool; His pleading voice arose: "O Lord, Be merciful to me, a fool! "
Archmage Atlantis: It still makes me cry
Archmage Atlantis: And I do not know why
Aphrodite Macbain: For me It cries of futility and hopelessnes
Ewan Bonham: For me , it is the opposite..
Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
Ewan Bonham: I feel almost relief that the days of asking for mercy are not on my radar any longer..
Aphrodite Macbain: why - because there is no one to ask mercy of?

Forgivness
Ewan Bonham: When I think of mercy, I think of forgiveness...
Ewan Bonham: And that is something that I see as a matter of personal healing..
Aphrodite Macbain: forgiveness for and from oneself?
Archmage Atlantis: I think I can answer that
Aphrodite Macbain: I find I am constantly feeling like I must ask for forgiveness from somebody
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes arch?
Archmage Atlantis: We have been forgiven, we need not ask for what is part of ourselves
Aphrodite Macbain: forgiven by whom?
Aphrodite Macbain: or what?
Aphrodite Macbain: Wester? Gaya, Sophia?
Archmage Atlantis: I have a meditation to go to......but I will say the answers to those questions.....by ourselves, and whatever we imagine as God
Aphrodite Macbain whispers "thanks" Arch Bye!
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Arch ... :)
 

SophiaSharon Larnia: i think forgiving yourself is harder for many than forgiving others
SophiaSharon Larnia: but it depends :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Well 'who' are we forgiving?
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles At Gaya
Aphrodite Macbain: Forgiving ourselves and forgiving others- both are hard
Aphrodite Macbain: we tell ourselves stories that keep us unforgiving
Aphrodite Macbain: angry and resentful
Aphrodite Macbain: How to drop that?
Gaya Ethaniel: I think looking at those stories can be useful?
Gaya Ethaniel: But I'm sure there're many other ways to approach this ...
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm maybe as long as they don't hook us into more anger!
Aphrodite Macbain listens to Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: I didn't say buy into those stories ... :)
 

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Eliza
Wester Kiranov: hi eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Eliza. We're talking about forgiveness and how to generate that spirit
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph, Gaya, Sharon, Ewan, Wester :)
Ewan Bonham: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: ah, great topic
Eliza Madrigal: (I said hellos but they don't show up in chat yet, guess lagging)
SophiaSharon Larnia: they did for me :)
Eliza Madrigal: ah, great thanks Sharon
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm reading you Eliza
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: ah, now Wester appears! :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Unforgiveness wrecks communication and relationships
Aphrodite Macbain: It keeps us hard and isolated
SophiaSharon Larnia: then you cant forgive yourself for not forgiving others and then end up one ball of unhappy
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain nods
SophiaSharon Larnia: sounds rather flip sorry :)
Eliza Madrigal: the other night at my rl group we talked about this and the question that came up was 'what IS it really?'
Aphrodite Macbain: how to unhook oneself from those feelings but at the same time how to look at them courageously
Aphrodite Macbain: what is unforgiveness?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: did you come up with an answer?
Eliza Madrigal: one 'answer', though really no, was that it was freezing someone
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps it is negative feelings directed at one person or persons
Wester Kiranov: it's not the negative feelings themselves
Aphrodite Macbain: negative feelings that are sustained and used as a form of weapon
Wester Kiranov: it's being attached to those feelings
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, at the bottom of it, it's attachment to one's ego
Eliza Madrigal: stuck with oneself in a hero role, sometimes
Aphrodite Macbain: Takes up a lot of valuable energy
Eliza Madrigal: or at least I've seen that with myself... yes
Aphrodite Macbain: That might be part of what we learn to "drop" before we see who we are- the buddha within us
Eliza Madrigal: but really, the more we tried to pin it down the more we couldn't :)) but that quality of energy loss we all related to
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: focussing on the loving kindness we all have
 

Wester Kiranov: i think we should learn to drop unforgiveness, but not necessarity replace it with forgiveness
Aphrodite Macbain: please say more Wester
Wester Kiranov: because for me forgiveness also reeks of being Right
Aphrodite Macbain: ah. It feels patronizing
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, nods
Eliza Madrigal: may want to think of ourselves as forgiving, so add that overlay on top of the unforgiveness, hah what an onion
Aphrodite Macbain: can we forgive w/o being patronizing?
Wester Kiranov: and having a story that you have forgiven someone now is a bit better than having a story about someone having done something unforgivable
Wester Kiranov: but not essentially different
Aphrodite Macbain: in each case I guess the tender ego is making the judgements
Ewan Bonham: For me, forgiveness is a way of letting Us witness to another's learning and redirection. Then it becomes an honor.
Aphrodite Macbain smiles at Ewan
 

Wester Kiranov: hi boxy
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Boxy!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello boxy :)
Aphrodite Macbain: We're discussing forgiveness
Ewan Bonham: HiBoxy..
Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Boxy
 

SophiaSharon Larnia: forgiveness may have nothing to do with the other person, they may not even know
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes practising emptiness :)
Alfred Kelberry: cute bunny :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bunny?
Alfred Kelberry: yes, gaya the bunny
Aphrodite Macbain looks around for a pair of long ears and a puffy tail
Alfred Kelberry: neko girls has a nice tail :)
Aphrodite Macbain: right Sophia
Alfred Kelberry: sharon, agreed
SophiaSharon Larnia: and im not sure if that even truly factors in the equation
Aphrodite Macbain: what about the notion of asking forgiveness?
SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
Eliza Madrigal: it is a gesture I guess
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry got to go, have a good weekend :)
Wester Kiranov: bye gaya
Alfred Kelberry: bunny's leaving
Eliza Madrigal: Bye gaya
Aphrodite Macbain: if acknowledging the harm we have done - truth and reconciliation
Eliza Madrigal: yes, there are times to do that I think
Eliza Madrigal: but if we expect that we'll be miserable
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: yes, eliza
Eliza Madrigal: there have been times that I didn't know I had forgiven someone until something came up and the same charge wasn't there.... and I thought 'when did that leave?'
Ewan Bonham: Smile...to Eliza...
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, I guess the sting of anger has left the room and you didn't even notice it
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: walking along... and it dropped itself
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, time softens it
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: yes, time does good work :)
Aphrodite Macbain: time heals, along with bad memory
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
 

SophiaSharon Larnia: back, bye Gaya and lol Boxy :)
Ewan Bonham: gOTTA RUN, FOLKS..:)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ewan,nice to see you
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Ewan
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Ewan.
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for coming
Wester Kiranov: i'm leaving too. thanks for a lovely conversation
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Wester :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm off to a presentation as well....
SophiaSharon Larnia: have fun all
Aphrodite Macbain: what's being presented?
Eliza Madrigal: neurolinguistic programming....
Eliza Madrigal: part of the birthday stuff
Alfred Kelberry: where?
Eliza Madrigal: at paradise
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now <3
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sharon :)
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds really interesting. In RL or SL?
Eliza Madrigal: here, on the beach at PP
Eliza Madrigal: have a landmark?
Alfred Kelberry: tp please
Aphrodite Macbain: yes please!
Aphrodite Macbain: forgot there was a beach
Aphrodite Macbain: coming too Boxy?
Alfred Kelberry: yes, in a bit
Aphrodite Macbain: kk all's well with you?
Alfred Kelberry: yep
Alfred Kelberry: thank you for asking :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yw. :-)