2011.06.09 13:00 - language and thinking

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Lia Rikugun: hello dash
Lia Rikugun: how are you doing?
Lia Rikugun: hi wol
Dash Earthboy: there we go...and here come's the fun!
Dash Earthboy: hi wol
Lia Rikugun: wow sexy wol
Wol Euler: hello lia, dash
Lia Rikugun: :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: ty
Lia Rikugun: how are you both doing?
Wol Euler: pretty well thanks, and you?
Lia Rikugun: good, tired, lot of work :)
Dash Earthboy: i'm staying out of Code Orange conditions and intense heat...so being out of it is good
Lia Rikugun: oh
Wol Euler: it's cold here today, and for the rest of the week
Wol Euler: 15 degrees today
Dash Earthboy: nice!
Wol Euler: heheh
Dash Earthboy: that's C right?
Wol Euler: yep
Dash Earthboy: we got tiny little showers spread all over this area and I see in Nashville too...like chicken pox :)
Wol Euler: heheh
Dash Earthboy: s'ok with me as long as they wash out the pollutants

language influences our thinking

Dash Earthboy: have you heard of the idea that we have our thinking influenced by and are constrained by the language we speak?
Wol Euler: yep, sounds pretty valid to me
Lia Rikugun: the language and the culture
Wol Euler: I know that I think differently in differnt languages
Lia Rikugun: interesting
Wol Euler: it may be just lack of inhibition, not being constrained by habits of speech
Dash Earthboy: something called the Sapir-Whorf theory of Linguistic Relativity
Wol Euler googles
Dash Earthboy: yah i find i think differently in different languages too although I haven't been to the countries
Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
Lia Rikugun: do you think it is dependent on the people you meet you talk in that language?
Dash Earthboy: but just having lived in different states has shown me the variety of ways words play into the cultures
Dash Earthboy: yay! i'm getting thunder here!
Lia Rikugun: i mean if i am learning a different language at home from the books
Lia Rikugun: will this influence my thinking in that language differently?
Dash Earthboy: looks like Bruce may be coming soon
Lia Rikugun: or is it dependent on the people i interact with when talking the different language?
Wol Euler: I think it's independent of ohter people, because I see the difference even when I'm talking to myself :)
Lia Rikugun: yes but you built up a thinking pattern maybe, no?
Wol Euler: but one might ask: if all languages were the same, why would there be a difference when talking to people here or there?
Dash Earthboy: yah that's kinda my point
Dash Earthboy: US English isn't the same all over the country
Dash Earthboy: words are different, represent different concepts even tolday
Wol Euler: it's a bit chicken and egg, really: culture makes language, but language makes culture too
Lia Rikugun: thats true

some words dont exist in other languages

Lia Rikugun: there are some words that dont exist in other languages
--BELL--
Wol Euler: indeed!
Lia Rikugun: 'schadenfreude' for example
Lia Rikugun: :)
Wol Euler: "kehricht"
Dash Earthboy: i think what Wol said is most readily apparent in music too
Wol Euler: is perhaps specifically southern German
Wol Euler: cultures invent words for concepts that they find important
Wol Euler: meaning, they are as lazy as people :)
Wol Euler: the Swabians (southwest Germans) were and remain very concerned with cleanliness
Lia Rikugun: hi arch
Wol Euler: you know when you sweep the floor with a broom, you end up with a little pile of stuff which you then brush into the dustpan to throw away
Dash Earthboy: hey Arch
Wol Euler: "kehricht" is that little pile of stuff!
Wol Euler: it was important enough to them that they invented a word for it
Wol Euler: hello arch
Dash Earthboy: good to know that Wol
Lia Rikugun: :) wol
Wol Euler grins.
Dash Earthboy: so calling somebody kehricht would be an insult?
Lia Rikugun: we are talking about languages and how talking in a different language makes you think differently
Wol Euler: definitely, but only in the southwest
Wol Euler: anywhere else they'd just look at you blankly
Dash Earthboy: ah there's the constraint!
Wol Euler: aye, there's the rub :)
Dash Earthboy: their language doesn't have the kehricht concept?
Wol Euler: I believe and admittedly limited experience confirms that it is a dialect word
Dash Earthboy: verrrry interesting!
Wol Euler: ... and my ...
Lia Rikugun: i think i have heard it before, but didnt really know what it means
Lia Rikugun: well i am german
Archmage Atlantis: pogram.....is that word any of you know?
Wol Euler: indeed . not swabian :)
Wol Euler: yes, arch
Archmage Atlantis: I , a desendent of the British Isles, know it in my genetic profile
Dash Earthboy: well, to me the theory sounds an awful lot like part of a presentation i did in a philosophy class back in 1971
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: would that make it more or less likely to be true?
Archmage Atlantis: There appears to have been a genetic adam and eve. best guess at the moment

real experiences cannot be descibed accurately

Dash Earthboy: well, my point was in that presentation that we could have real experiences and not be able to describe it accurately to others in our culture
Wol Euler nods.
Archmage Atlantis: Say hello to Fael for me Wol
Wol Euler: I'll do that, arch.
Archmage Atlantis: Namaste
Wol Euler: goodnight
Dash Earthboy: namaste Arch
Archmage Atlantis: And my Blessings
Dash Earthboy: wait, what's happening?
Wol Euler: um, I thought Arch was going to leave :) sorry if I misled us all
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: If one Dashes. one has to ketchup
Wol Euler: *rimshot*
Archmage Atlantis: chuckle
Dash Earthboy: and then i saw Lia do a short "away"
Lia Rikugun: sorry :)
Dash Earthboy: i'm easily confused :)
Lia Rikugun: so we can stay in confusion a little

Guugu Yimithirr

Wol Euler: the Australian language Guugu Yimithirr only uses absolute directions when describing spatial relations — the position of everything is described by using the cardinal directions. A speaker of Guugu yimithirr will define a person as being "north of the house", while a speaker of English may say that he is "in front of the house" or "to the left of the house" depending on the speaker's point of view. This difference makes Guugu yimithirr speakers better at performing some kinds of tasks, such as finding and describing locations in open terrain, whereas English speakers perform better in tasks regarding the positioning of objects relative to the speaker (for example telling someone to set a round table putting forks to the right of the plate and knives to the left would be extremely difficult in Guugu yimithirr).
Archmage Atlantis: Easily confused.....to me that is easily certaain
Wol Euler: (wikipedia, that URL I gave earlier)

reliable Wikipedia

Archmage Atlantis: Wikipedia was reliable for a wile
Wol Euler: as long as you don't read about Paul Revere ...
Archmage Atlantis: It has been palen'd
Wol Euler: indeed
Dash Earthboy: :)
Lia Rikugun: http://xkcd.com/906/
Lia Rikugun: funny comic for wikipedia
Archmage Atlantis: No t easy to be
Wol Euler: yeah, I saw that :)
Lia Rikugun: (there is always text poping up if you move the cursor over the image)

animals understanding..

Archmage Atlantis: Cats understand. dogs do as we ask, birds fly
Dash Earthboy: how does one know a cat understands?
Archmage Atlantis: Because the cat got there before one did
Dash Earthboy: some dogs are disagreeable...and then there's penguins
Archmage Atlantis: OMG. the penguins. bird wimming, no fly]
Dash Earthboy: just another perspective
Archmage Atlantis: flyin in h2o I suppose
Dash Earthboy: there's a concept for us :)
Archmage Atlantis: ep
Wol Euler nods.
Dash Earthboy: i think it may be easier for me to fly in beer than water :)
Archmage Atlantis: We humans kn ow everything
Dash Earthboy: i thought cats knew everything :)
Wol Euler: nah, they just give that impression
Wol Euler: something in their attitude ..
Dash Earthboy: ah!
Dash Earthboy: so if I could learn to sing like a cat....
Archmage Atlantis: True
Archmage Atlantis: because if I don't know it, you will tell me g
Archmage Atlantis: Koya hears
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: Ding
Dash Earthboy: these days i dance like a canary and sing like a bear
Archmage Atlantis: Ok, florida panthers and bears are eating goats and sheep in peoples yards
Archmage Atlantis: Coyotes are here also
Dash Earthboy: yah they're all over
Dash Earthboy: lots of illegals need transport
Archmage Atlantis: I never thought being involved with a guy fro Mebraska
Archmage Atlantis: would bring me here
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: life's paths are convoluted
Dash Earthboy: :)
Wol Euler: and sometimes only to be seen as such in retrospect
Archmage Atlantis: The teachings of Siddhartha
Wol Euler smiles.
Dash Earthboy: we favor retro & circumspective
Archmage Atlantis: To become the king, one must no longer be the prince
Dash Earthboy: sounds like a political statement
Dash Earthboy: :)
Dash Earthboy: but i don't think he'll replace Elvis
Archmage Atlantis: Heh, dude....I AM Elvis
Dash Earthboy: uh huh
Archmage Atlantis: OK,Dash
Archmage Atlantis: I';; return to Arch
Archmage Atlantis: Hi wizard of Atlantis
Dash Earthboy: :)
Dash Earthboy: way down below the ocean where i wanna be you may be....
Archmage Atlantis: Donovan
Dash Earthboy: yah
Archmage Atlantis: Didn't know you were that old
Dash Earthboy: surprise
Wol Euler: :)
Dash Earthboy: but then I taught my son to sing "Wake up little susie" so who knows huh?
Dash Earthboy: say it's only a paper moon hanging over a cardboard sea...
Archmage Atlantis: Your move...tell me what you tell your great grandson
Dash Earthboy: heheh
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: ding
Dash Earthboy: i also taught my son "HangingByA Moment" :)
Dash Earthboy: i think music helps one stay ageless
Archmage Atlantis: This planet of what we call earth is my son
Lia Rikugun: sorry i will leave you to go to bed, have a good night!
Wol Euler: goodnight lia, sleep well
Dash Earthboy: g'nite Lia
Archmage Atlantis: More important, it is my daughter
Dash Earthboy: hmmm...ponders "Child of the Universe" & "Master of the Universe"...
Wol Euler: I haven't heard that expression in a while :)
Archmage Atlantis: Ponder away, she left....and I will also...Blessimg to you both
Wol Euler: I assume you are referring to the stock brokers' hubris?
Dash Earthboy: you too Arch
Wol Euler: bye arch, take care
Dash Earthboy: we've cooled down 10 degrees here already
Wol Euler: good :)
Dash Earthboy: i mean here at my house from the storm :)
Wol Euler: unddrstood

Dash Earthboy: what was supper for you today?
Wol Euler: a frozen pizza at home
Wol Euler: it's usually less but I was particularly hungry
Dash Earthboy: cool
Wol Euler: lunch is my main meal of the day, since many years now
Wol Euler: dinner is usually just a sandwich or two
Wol Euler: or crackers and cheese etc
Dash Earthboy: i've been trying to use up some mushrooms I got on pizzas
Dash Earthboy: and in salads and omelets
Wol Euler nods.
Dash Earthboy: got a huge bag of organic mushrooms for $1.49
Wol Euler: heheh
Dash Earthboy: they do go well with the 10 lbs of potatos I got yesterday for $2
Dash Earthboy: i've been trying to eat cooler tho
Wol Euler: cold food?
Dash Earthboy: i processed the strawberries this morning
Dash Earthboy: i got good deals on strawberries, blueberries and bananas yesterday
Dash Earthboy: and then the milk for $1.49/gal
Wol Euler: good work :)
Wol Euler: and probably pretty healthy too
Dash Earthboy: and the cereal...the way i figured it, i got 12 meals of cerea w/bananas for $4.25
Dash Earthboy: that's honey nut cheerios cereal
Wol Euler: interesting to compare that to the price of potatoes ...
Wol Euler: processed stuff costs more per mouthful
Dash Earthboy: and actually the 15 bananas will also go on sandwichs and in banana splits
Wol Euler: right
Wol Euler: actually it sounds pretty delicious
Wol Euler: in a way, almost extravagant
Dash Earthboy: it is very good food
Dash Earthboy: yes pretty dang sweet and healthy
Wol Euler: you'd expect to have that on the menu at breakfast at an up-and-coming hotel
Dash Earthboy: yah
--BELL--
Wol Euler: an interesting reflection on what "luxury" means
Dash Earthboy: breakfast for me today was a mushroom single egg omelet (extra large brown organic btw), and potato w/V8 juice and 4 cups of coffee
Wol Euler nods
Wol Euler: er, the recorder is still running
Wol Euler: I'll stop it