2011.06.14 07:00 - Wow! like far out! emanating Blu-ness

The Guardian for this meeting was Riddle Sideways. The comments are by Riddle Sideways.

Riddle Sideways: Morning Bruce and Bleu
Bleu Oleander: hi Riddle and Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Riddle and Bleu.
Riddle Sideways: wow, like how all the flowers went back into a ball and poofed
Bleu Oleander: cool huh?

Bruce Mowbray: I'vebeen thinking all morning about Pema's assignment for this week's TIME sessions, and those flowers are a perfect example --
                     --BELL--
Riddle Sideways: opps, am behind in homework
Bleu Oleander: haven't done this week's assignment yet either
Bleu Oleander: last one, right?
Riddle Sideways: was doing the week befores early and often
Riddle Sideways: this week have not even read it
Riddle Sideways: printed it to take to gym, but left it on the printer
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: say more Bruce about the flowers?
Bleu Oleander: hi Xirana
Riddle Sideways: Hi Xir
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Bleu, Bruce, Riddle:)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, Chapter 14 dels with "dulaities" -- as the supposed duality between "easy " and "hard" or "real" and "illusory."
Bruce Mowbray: So when I saw the blue flowers -- appearing, moving, coming out of you and going back into you - to poof . . .
Bruce Mowbray: I instantly thought of Pema's assignment.
Bruce Mowbray: and what is "real" and what it "difficult" -- etc etc etc.
Bleu Oleander: ah nice Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Xir!
Xirana Oximoxi: good day, Bruce:)
Riddle Sideways: like Donovan song: once there were some flower, then there were no flowers, then there were :)
Bleu Oleander: perhaps I can focus on your thoughts as I'm doing this new assignment :)
Bruce Mowbray: and isn't that exactly the case the absolutely everything, Riddle?
Bruce Mowbray: (including your print-out, not taken to the gym?
Riddle Sideways: yep
Bleu Oleander: thank you both for a little homework help :)
Bleu Oleander ⊱ smiles ⊰
Riddle Sideways: with SL it seems even easier to switch real/imaginery
Bruce Mowbray: During my recent hospitalization, I "lost" 16 pounds of body weight. . .
Bruce Mowbray: was that weight an "illusory" "me" == ----
Bruce Mowbray: I don't recall having any difficulty "losing" it.
Bleu Oleander: brb
Bruce Mowbray wonders is Bleu's blue flowers weigh anything -- and suddenly is aware that it doesn't matter.
Riddle Sideways: we see flowers
Riddle Sideways: then see no flowers
Riddle Sideways: what it maters is a different
Riddle Sideways: :) 2 meanings to mater/matter
Bruce Mowbray now thinks of 3 meanings to 'matter' -- at least. . .
Wol Euler: good afternoon, everyone
Riddle Sideways: back long ago... we would just look at the flowers and say "Oh, wow, look at that..."
Bruce Mowbray: G'day, Wol!
Riddle Sideways: Hiya Wol
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Wol:)
Bleu Oleander: hey Wol
Riddle Sideways: not even labeling it as flowers
Riddle Sideways: just impressed
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, Riddle, and Pema is incouraging and inviting us to return to such fresh seeing/Being through his chapters.
Bruce Mowbray: encouraging*
Riddle Sideways: well, it was a little hard to function in that world (if memory serves)
Riddle Sideways: walking to some place was hard, when you had to see so many pretty non-labeled things
Bruce Mowbray: "Simply ask Time to show us its Real Face in each moment of the day. Whenever we remember to do so, simply rest in each moment, beyond reality and illusion."
Riddle Sideways: pretty flappy insect
Bleu Oleander: :)
                     --BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Wol Euler: hello yaku
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Yaku:)
Riddle Sideways: Howdee Yak and SS
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha! Are we more distracted by thoes things that suddenly attract out attention - or by our conceptualizations (labeling, grouping, judgments, etc.) about them?
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Yaku!
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :)
Wol Euler: zhello sharon
Bleu Oleander: hi Sharon, Yaku
SophiaSharon Larnia: zhello to you too
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Sharon!
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Sophia
Yakuzza Lethecus: i like ur new furry outfit wol :)
Wol Euler: ty :)
Riddle Sideways: back then the thing was not labeled and was still pretty
Bleu Oleander: nice kitty :)
Bruce Mowbray: "Beginner's Mind"?
Wol Euler purrs
Riddle Sideways: now, sadly, seem to label first and apreciate later
Bleu Oleander: not everyone does that
Bleu Oleander: keep an artist's mind
Riddle Sideways: and /me does not either :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ari
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Ari! :))
Bleu Oleander: that's exactly what I was hoping my theater piece would say
Riddle Sideways: an artist mind is different then beginners mind (but simular)
Arisia Vita: hope all are well and happy, hi...
Bleu Oleander: don't label what is or is not music
Wol Euler: hello ari!
Bruce Mowbray: Agrees with Riddle -- I call that "glomming" -- compulsively grouping, labeling, and categorizing the moments of our experience. --- I suspect (in my case) it might be a phony way of trying to be more "secure' with whatever happens -- by imagining I can control it is some way - through words and categories.
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Arisia
Bleu Oleander: hi Ari
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Arisia.
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods at Bruce
Wol Euler: "to name something is to control it" as the wizards used to say
Riddle Sideways: Hi Artista
Wol Euler: at least in fantasy fiction
Bleu Oleander: how is artist's mind different than beginners mind? and how are they similar?
Wol Euler is reading Ursula LeGuin at the moment
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Zen
Riddle Sideways: ah, the control freaks within us
SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
Riddle Sideways: Hi Zen
Bleu Oleander read Lavinia by Ursula :)
Zen Arado: Hi Folks :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zen.
Xirana Oximoxi: maybe artist's mind try to 'delete' pre-stablished images of everything
Riddle Sideways: why is out of control (controlling everything) a bad place?
Riddle Sideways: or does artist mind, re-paint the outlines out there
Zen Arado: yeh paint what you see not what you think
Bleu Oleander: as an artist I don't try to delete anything ... I try to keep my experiences fresh
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Zen:)
Riddle Sideways: or the other way round
Zen Arado: yeh that too
Wol Euler: hello zen
Bruce Mowbray suspects that the illusion is that we ever "control" anything --- although the artist seems to simulate "control" through her artistry.
Riddle Sideways: Hi DRuth
Zen Arado: but we never see what's there anyway
druth Vlodovic: hi
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, druth!
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Druth
Zen Arado: only interpreted through our thoughts and experience
Xirana Oximoxi: hi druth:)
Zen Arado: Hi Druth
Wol Euler: hello druth
Riddle Sideways: we see, whether that is real, truth, what another labels matters not so much
Zen Arado: yeh just seeing
Zen Arado: or can we see without conceptualising?
Riddle Sideways: the beginner mind sees it for the first time
Zen Arado: very difficult
Riddle Sideways: artist mind might color it
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen and druth
Bruce Mowbray: simple seeing-Being . . . . no dualities, judgments, categories, glomming together of characteristics.
Zen Arado: as soo as your brain gets hold of the raw data it addsa lot
Bleu Oleander: any mind colors experience
Zen Arado: like hearing a sound
Bleu Oleander: no such thing as receiving raw data
Zen Arado: the mind immediatelt lkabels it
Riddle Sideways: [in previous chat] to just see and say "wow, far out..."
Zen Arado: think it is raw for a few milliseconds
druth Vlodovic: I was at a talk last night about "proximal" and "distal" knowing, proximal is the method we use for interpreting something, and is invisible to us, distal is our focus
Zen Arado: then the brain grabs it
SophiaSharon Larnia: i think so too Zen
Bleu Oleander: actually you need your brain to put it together
Riddle Sideways listens to DRuth
Zen Arado: yeh
Bruce Mowbray: Bleu -- would you mind showing us the flowers again -- for the in-the-moment experience and appreciation of those who arrived after they poofed?
Bleu Oleander: can't experiece the raw as such
Zen Arado: see with our brain
Bleu Oleander ⊱ smiles ⊰
Arisia Vita: can the blind see anything? can the sighted see nothing?
Zen Arado: we only see in 2d too
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: ty, Bleu!
Zen Arado: retinas are flat
Zen Arado: the brain adds the 3d
Wol Euler: ty
Zen Arado: it has little 3d glasses :)
Zen Arado: or 3d processing capability
SophiaSharon Larnia: what was the talk about Druth?
Riddle Sideways: we stare at a monitor, yet see bleu eminate blueness
Bruce Mowbray: druth Vlodovic: I was at a talk last night about "proximal" and "distal" knowing, proximal is the method we use for interpreting something, and is invisible to us, distal is our focus
                     --BELL--
Bleu Oleander: eminating bleuness :))
Riddle Sideways: can we not see the proximal ?
SophiaSharon Larnia: I see what the speaker(?) is saying but would like to hear more. :)
Riddle Sideways: or is that the exercise
druth Vlodovic: it was more an observation
Riddle Sideways: to see, but not get caught up in the proximal
SophiaSharon Larnia: what if the focus is proximal
Riddle Sideways: fun
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh :) nvm
Bleu Oleander: can't see the mechanisms behind the scene
druth Vlodovic: one example was that you can't see the features of a facew and the face at the same time
Zen Arado: I read somewhere that seeing is a two way process...the see-er and the object being seen...need both
Bleu Oleander: interesting "the Ego Tunnel"
Bleu Oleander: book by Mezinger
Xirana Oximoxi: I must go, bye to all and see you soon:)
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles at Zen
Wol Euler: bye xir, take care
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Xirana have fun
Zen Arado: byr Xirana
Riddle Sideways: also read that the eye is refocusing very rapidly, not staring
Riddle Sideways: by Xir
Bleu Oleander: bye Xirana
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Xir.
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye xirana
Wol Euler nods to Riddle
Wol Euler: apparently the area we can actually see in clear focus is only about two inches across at arm's length
Wol Euler: the brain "fills in" a uniformly sharp image from many such snapshots, like a mosaic
Riddle Sideways: knowing that each pixel is made some degree of RGB is important knowledge, but gets in the way of seeing blu flowers
Riddle Sideways: seeing those 2 square inches and inventing/compositing the rest
Bleu Oleander: doesn't get in the way for me
Riddle Sideways: does what for your knowledge
Riddle Sideways: state of mind?
Riddle Sideways: good
Zen Arado: the rest is there though..just not so much detail
SophiaSharon Larnia: without it, my state of mind would detoriate rapidly
Bruce Mowbray: When I first began to meditate, I was encouraged not to label anything -- so, instead of thinking to myself, "Here is a _____," when something came to mine, I trained myself to think, "This one, now." "This one, here" etc etc. Never labeling, comparing, judging -- simply "taking note and moving on.
Zen Arado: yeh fi I focus on someon'es name in the middle of my screen I can't read anyone elses
Bruce Mowbray: mind*
druth Vlodovic: we build images in our minds of the world around, images composed of sensory data, memory, emotions and associations
Riddle Sideways: we see this side of the building is blue, should we assume the other sides are blue too - 'Stranger in a Strange Lan'
Zen Arado: yeh
Riddle Sideways: LAN :)
Wol Euler nods.
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Zen Arado: same when you learn to paint...you paint a colour and a shape not an object
Bruce Mowbray: Stranger in a Strange Local Area Network....
druth Vlodovic: and bruce, that sounds like what I have to do at work to properly evaluate my product, otherwise I see what I need to to sit down for a minute :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: listens for tips from Zen :))
Zen Arado: this is phenomenology isn't it?
Bleu Oleander: http://www.edge.org/
Bruce Mowbray: yes, the is one way of doing phenomenology.
Wol Euler smiles.
Bleu Oleander: interesting interview with Wilson
Bruce Mowbray: this*
Bruce Mowbray: say more, please, Bleu.
Bleu Oleander: he wrote "stangers to ourselves"
Bleu Oleander: great book
Riddle Sideways: ty
Wol Euler makes a note
Zen Arado: believing the stories we tell ourselves
Riddle Sideways: oh, was not suppose to read and watch now :)
Bleu Oleander: The Torah asks this question: "Is not a flower a mystery no flower can explain?" Some scholars have said yes, some scholars have said no. Wilson has said, "Let’s go find out." He has always worn two professional hats — the hat of the psychologist and the hat of the methodologist. He has written extensively about the importance of using experimental methods to solve real world problems, and in his work on the science of psychological change — he uses a scientific flashlight to chase away a whole host of shadows by examining the many ways in which human beings try to change themselves — from self-help to psychotherapy — and asking whether these things really work, and if so, why? His answers will surprise many people and piss off the rest. I predict that this new work will be the center of a very interesting storm.
Zen Arado: we do things and then invent resons for the actions?
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps each of us has a bit of narcissistic impulse -- wanting to believe in ourselves as more "real" than anything else.
Riddle Sideways: or not
                     --BELL--
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles at not
Zen Arado: it sounds like things Buddhists knew centuries ago though
Riddle Sideways: ty, need more books that surprise and piss off the rest
druth Vlodovic: human beings have been human for a long time
Wol Euler: true
Zen Arado: meditation allows us to see the stories
Zen Arado: be able to detach

     Power (and internet) goes off at the commentator's part of town and Riddle poofs.

druth Vlodovic: sometimes when I read I forget that I have a book, and just live the story, I guess this is sort of the reverse :)
Zen Arado: not identify with them, get so caught up in them
SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes i dont want to detach, i want to see it while attached
SophiaSharon Larnia: so to speak
Bleu Oleander: we think we detach but who is doing the detaching?
Bruce Mowbray: also, not to be the victims of our own emotional reaction patterns --- having our experience be fenced in a determined by theos reactive patterns.
Bruce Mowbray: and determined by those*
Zen Arado: don't know...just detachment happening
Bruce Mowbray: Zen, is your meaning of 'detachment' close to 'liberation'?
Bruce Mowbray: Does 'detachment' require that we "CUT THROU" whatever is attaching us -- or might it be simpler?
Bleu Oleander ⊱ smiles ⊰
Bruce Mowbray: cut through*
SophiaSharon Larnia: (thanks for the clarification of the word, i was using it in the dictionary definition with who am I now seeing) :)
Bruce Mowbray love the blue flowers and is feeling attached to them!
SophiaSharon Larnia: not the buddhist sense
Zen Arado: sorry
Zen Arado: was doing something with alt
Zen Arado: it is just not grasping to me
Bruce Mowbray: byem Bleu!
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bleu
Zen Arado: letting go
Zen Arado: bye Bleu
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bleu
druth Vlodovic: to just avoid things that you might get attached to leaves the mind untrained
Zen Arado: cos we usually cling
Zen Arado: I think
Zen Arado: not avoiding
Zen Arado: just opening the hand
Wol Euler nods.
Zen Arado: allowing things to pass?
druth Vlodovic: allowing things to enter, linger perhaps, and leave on their time, even if they don't
Wol Euler: that'
Zen Arado: yeh seems more like it
Bruce Mowbray loves "just opening the hand" --- and releasing it. (effortless)
Wol Euler: that's a good image, Zen: not pushing away (hand vertical) but just holding your hand out (horizontal)
Zen Arado: there's a zen book called 'Opening the hand of thought'
Bruce Mowbray: no resistance -- to clinging -- no effort
Bruce Mowbray: no clinging
Zen Arado: yeh
druth Vlodovic: I was reading something about "straightening hooks" of things we are attached to, but I don't see things as having hooks, just strings that I hold on to
Zen Arado: we grab the pleSANT AND PUSH AWAY THE UNPLEASANT
Bruce Mowbray: time for me to move on -- Thank you everyone for an enjoyable and thought-provoking discussion.
Zen Arado: drat sorry caps
                     --BELL--
Zen Arado: bye Bruce
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bruce, enjoy the day, I think its cooler outside for you :)
Wol Euler: bye bruce, take care
Zen Arado: glad you seem a bit better
SophiaSharon Larnia: drat missed him
Zen Arado: :)
Arisia Vita: I too must fly, rl calls, ty all for sharing with me, I am the wiser for it...
Wol Euler: bye ari, enjoy the day
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye arisia, nice to see you
Arisia Vita: be well and happy till we meet again
Zen Arado: bye Arisia
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye ari
Zen Arado: gtsy
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everryone
Wol Euler: bye yaku
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Yaku
SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm off too have fun!!
Zen Arado: bye all
SophiaSharon Larnia: b4n
Wol Euler: bye sharon :) you too; bye zen
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Wol Euler: I guess we're done for today :)
druth Vlodovic: so it seems :)
druth Vlodovic: have fun wol
Wol Euler: bye druth, enjoy the day