2011.07.26 13:00 - Dropping Containers

The guardian for this session was Bruce Mowbray.

 

FcSeeker: Hello San Bruce Pema and neo

neo Mosely: hii all

Santoshima: greetings pema, bruce, neo, Fc

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pema, Fc, neo.

neo Mosely: so nice to finally find a good philosophical sim

neo Mosely: searched for a while

Pema Pera: glad you found us, Neo!

Bruce Mowbray: always good to see you here, Fc.

Bruce Mowbray: yeppers. Still doing a bit of lag -- in both Sl and RL -- ha ha.

Bruce Mowbray: Neo -- I'm going to slip you a notecard. . . about Play as Being. . .

Bruce Mowbray: If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask, OK?

neo Mosely: ok, sure

neo Mosely: how is this sim generally?

neo Mosely: discussions and events happen

Santoshima: hello Korel

Pema Pera: hi Korel!

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Korel!

Korel Laloix: heya

Pema Pera: we talk about almost anything, Neo :-)

neo Mosely: ok, thanks, i wl chck the notecard

FcSeeker: hi Korel

neo Mosely: well, thts good

neo Mosely: its diff to find like minded ppl in RL

Pema Pera: but an underlying theme is to look at what we identify with, and to try and see whether we can carry our identifications a bit more loosely, more freely

Pema Pera: in a lighthanded way

neo Mosely: ic..

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Bruce Mowbray: I like to think of identities as something we carry in a variety of "containers."

Bruce Mowbray: Like, a job is a "container" for a certain type of identity. . .

Bruce Mowbray: and group memberships are also containers. . . that carry identity.

Pema Pera: yes, like, every moment we play many roles -- what would happen if we dropped all of them, briefly?

Bruce Mowbray: So, for me, "dropping what you have to see what you are" means dropping the containers. . . for a while.

Pema Pera: peek out of our containers :)

FcSeeker: more peace comes

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

neo Mosely: may be it's like wearing dress

neo Mosely: for various occasion we wear diff type of cloths

Pema Pera nods

neo Mosely: identities also like tht

Korel Laloix: Labels are important though.

Korel Laloix: Both in good and bad ways.

FcSeeker: thinks them to be more bad than good

neo Mosely: something which separates us from animals

neo Mosely: but moves us away from nature and universe

FcSeeker: people have so many opinions already for the colour of the skin and where one lives and so...

Pema Pera: yes, we need identities, labels, concepts, names . . . but dropping them briefly can help see them in perspective

Bruce Mowbray: Is racial identity also a "container" -- or perhaps a "role"?

FcSeeker: what needs there is for such ?

Korel Laloix: I think you maybe correct, labels tend to be more negative than positive.

FcSeeker: (name is very important, but meaning the clothings)

neo Mosely: thts true, but most of the time its the society tht labels us against our wish

Pema Pera: words are labels, each word has an identity; without words we could not have a conversation

FcSeeker: or other labels on the person

Bruce Mowbray: What if you let the labels "drop" - - and also let the "containers" that the labels were attached to drop. . . .(?)

Korel Laloix: I think labels only become dangerous when you accept those labels.

Santoshima: no language is neutral

Pema Pera keeps nodding :-)

Bruce Mowbray: excellent point, Santo. . .

FcSeeker: the less labels, the more neutral imo

Santoshima: important to touch some sense on non-identification at some point in the day

neo Mosely: true

Korel Laloix: But I like labels.

Bruce Mowbray: During the next "drop" - I am going to let both the labels and the containers "drop." - - -

FcSeeker: if people would peacefully listen to what other are speaking and behaving with open mind, the whole world would be much better imo

Korel Laloix: Makes some things a lot easier.

Bruce Mowbray: and if you also do something like this, I would appreciate hearing how you experienced that.

Bruce Mowbray: after the 90 sec drop.

neo Mosely: by dropping the label, do you mean by meditation?

 

BELL

 

FcSeeker: Hello Aphrodite

Pema Pera: hi Aph!

Aphrodite Macbain: hello!

Santoshima: hello aphrodite, gtsy

Bruce Mowbray: It could be through "meditation" -- but not necessarily, neo.

Aphrodite Macbain: Wow everything is distorted

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Aph!

Bruce Mowbray: yeah -- I think SL is having troubles today.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bruce, San, Pema, Fc, Korel and neo

Bruce Mowbray: Did anyone else drop the labels/containers?

Aphrodite Macbain: I haven't met you before Neo

FcSeeker: yes

Korel Laloix: Labels like stereotypes are used right make things easy.

Bruce Mowbray: Anything you'd care to hare about your experience with tat, Fc?

neo Mosely: hi Macbain

FcSeeker: well...as I do that when I log in to SL....

Bruce Mowbray: ahhhhh!

FcSeeker: there's not much of me left but other spirits

FcSeeker: meaning what I experience

Pema Pera: nice point, Fc

Bruce Mowbray: "not much left of me but what I experience."

Bruce Mowbray: That was worth repeating!

Pema Pera: and yet of course we also bring in our personalities, in some way or other

Aphrodite Macbain: we are what we experience?

FcSeeker: meaning that I do not much experience myself, but other spirits who are with me here

Bruce Mowbray: Is that your experience, Fc?

Aphrodite Macbain: hmm. I am also alot of chemicals I notice

Aphrodite Macbain: and synapses

Bruce Mowbray: you experience your chemistry?

Bruce Mowbray: and your synapses?

Aphrodite Macbain: yes. I am very conscious of how my mood and therefore my outlook is affected by chemicals-hormones for example

FcSeeker: in case we would be what we experience, that I would be all of you...

FcSeeker: then

Agatha Macbeth: Evening all

Aphrodite Macbain: also whether I have slept or eaten

Aphrodite Macbain: well

FcSeeker: Hi Agatha

Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Agga

Bruce Mowbray: yes, you would BE what you experience, Fc -- (or I feel so , anyway).

Santoshima: hello aggers

Aphrodite Macbain: Nice of you to sit next to me

Pema Pera: hi Agatha!

FcSeeker: <3

Santoshima: hello

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, aggers!

Santoshima: hello!!

Aphrodite Macbain: I was feeling a little lonely on this side of the circle

Pema Pera: :-)

Agatha Macbeth: Not now :)

Aphrodite Macbain: nope

FcSeeker: may I ask why you sat there ?

Aphrodite Macbain smiles

Aphrodite Macbain: It was the closest cushion in my distorted world view

Agatha Macbeth: If I could think of an answer I'd give it FC :p

FcSeeker: <3

Agatha Macbeth: Some things just *are*

FcSeeker: that is also an answer <3

Pema Pera: :-)

Agatha Macbeth: /me smiles

Aphrodite Macbain: that is a nice answer

Aphrodite Macbain: have you adjusted to being home yet, bruce?

FcSeeker: but I meant my question to Aphrodite and you Aphrodite gave also the answer

Bruce Mowbray: In the next drop (still 6 minutes away), I'm going to "drop" all notions of causation -- like, 'what "caused" you to sit over there...?'

Aphrodite Macbain: yes- that's far too heavy to carry

Agatha Macbeth: Good idea Brucie :p

Bruce Mowbray agrees.

Bruce Mowbray: in a light-hearted way.

Aphrodite Macbain: Only I can answer that, Bruce

Aphrodite Macbain: FC it's nice to see you have so many hearts to spare FC

Agatha Macbeth: When FC says 'have a heart' he means it!

FcSeeker: <3<3<3smiles<3<3<3

Bruce Mowbray: For myself, trying to track down causations is a way of trying to be in control . . . . and I feel much lighter not having to feel in control.

Aphrodite Macbain: <3 <3

Agatha Macbeth: I can understand that, bruce

Aphrodite Macbain: yes controlling is a hard burden.

FcSeeker: has the belief that it's just the same with all of the people

Agatha Macbeth: All of the time? :)

Bruce Mowbray: so . . . to lighten the load in the next "drop"

Aphrodite Macbain: KK Bruce

 

BELL

 

Aphrodite Macbain: I've lost control of my camera but perhaps that might be a good thing

Aphrodite Macbain: brb

FcSeeker: my faith is such yes that all the time

Agatha Macbeth nods and smiles

FcSeeker: that for example I do not control my fingers to type but just let them to do their work

Santoshima: neo's left, silent as mist

Agatha Macbeth: It seems to work well

FcSeeker: Do you know about the man who drags the locomotions ?

Agatha Macbeth: Casey Jones?

Agatha Macbeth: No, that's locomotives

FcSeeker: I sadly don't remember his name

Agatha Macbeth: Steamin' and a rollin'?

FcSeeker: ah no

Agatha Macbeth: Ah well

FcSeeker: he drags them to move

Pema Pera: :-)

FcSeeker: that I don't know if he uses control but I have much doubts that not

Agatha Macbeth: Why can they not move by themselves?

FcSeeker: it's his performance to show how human body is capable to be strooooooooooooong

Agatha Macbeth: Oh, I see

Agatha Macbeth: It's a macho thing then? :p

FcSeeker: I think not

Agatha Macbeth: Hmmm

FcSeeker: just a performance of what is possible

Agatha Macbeth: Like Isaac Newton?

Santoshima: it's a performance to show will and endurance

Santoshima: mind over matter

Bruce Mowbray loves "performance of what is possible."

FcSeeker: could be...have never compared this man to other specific things

FcSeeker: yes San

Santoshima: i need to leave, my thanks to you all

FcSeeker: waves to San

Agatha Macbeth: Bye Santo, take care

Pema Pera: by Santo!

Bruce Mowbray: be well, Santo.

Aphrodite Macbain: Cheers San

Aphrodite Macbain: Are you talking about a strong man in real life?

FcSeeker: yes

FcSeeker: just that I don't know if he lives still

Aphrodite Macbain: what a way to earn a living

Bruce Mowbray: but you are talking about "control, " right?

FcSeeker: so long ago he gave those performances

Aphrodite Macbain: !

FcSeeker: that man came to my mind because of that yes

Bruce Mowbray: ok -- ty!

Aphrodite Macbain: control over his body?

Agatha Macbeth: Aren't there people in Tibet who move rocks with one finger?

FcSeeker: that how I do not know if he controls or just let things to happen...

Aphrodite Macbain: I see. Hmmmm

Aphrodite Macbain scratches her head doubtfully

FcSeeker: there are people around the world that lift person sitting on the heavy chair with one finger

Agatha Macbeth: Yes, I've heard of that

Bruce Mowbray suspects that Fc's cushion might have magical powers . . .

FcSeeker: they I know that do not control but release them of all of such

Aphrodite Macbain: or something

FcSeeker: (have met such people)

Aphrodite Macbain: where?

FcSeeker: in my RL

Aphrodite Macbain: where? In a circus?

FcSeeker: in private

FcSeeker: private life

Aphrodite Macbain: cool

FcSeeker: Hello Chi

Agatha Macbeth: Nice to see you again Chi

Pema Pera: hi Chi!

Aphrodite Macbain: Ciao chi

Chi Aho: Hello all!

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Chi!

Aphrodite Macbain: I'm going to have lunch now. My stomach is growling

Chi Aho: Bruce i have not seen you in a while

Agatha Macbeth: Growl back at it!

FcSeeker: bon apetit Aphrodite

Agatha Macbeth: BFN Aph

Chi Aho: bye bye

Pema Pera: I also have to leave

FcSeeker: waves to Pema

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye!

Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Pema!

Pema Pera: good seeing you all again -- sorry, Chi, to leave so quickly

Chi Aho: ok

Agatha Macbeth: Bye Pem

 

BELL

 

FcSeeker: did you something special with your mind this time Bruce ?

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I did - as a matter of fact.

FcSeeker: would you share what ?

Bruce Mowbray: I let the containers drop and discovered that their contents were no longer "contained" -- so they dissipated.

Bruce Mowbray: boundless-ly.

FcSeeker: can this 'dissipated' be said in some other way (lost my dictionary for a while)

Agatha Macbeth: Did you enjoy the retreat Bruce?

Agatha Macbeth: (It means 'blown away' FC)

FcSeeker: thank you Agatha

Bruce Mowbray: dissipated = freely loose -- expanding into space. . . not held together by anything.

Agatha Macbeth: YW :)

FcSeeker: thank you too Bruce

Agatha Macbeth: Like a dandelion

FcSeeker: <3

Agatha Macbeth: <3

Agatha Macbeth: So Brucie has become a lighter being....

Bruce Mowbray: I enjoyed the retreat like a sitting frong and a rotting log and a forse that waises its nose to whiff the air.

Bruce Mowbray: frog*

Bruce Mowbray: horse*

Bruce Mowbray: raises*

Agatha Macbeth: Didn't do much for your typing skills tho :ppp

Bruce Mowbray: (GOSH!) my fingers seem to have minds of their own. . . (How about that, Fc?)

Agatha Macbeth: It seems to be contagious

FcSeeker: takes it to be cute

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Bruce Mowbray: no container -- nothing to hold contents -- contents are free and loose -- boundless-ness.

FcSeeker: so you feel very well <3<3<3

Agatha Macbeth: We hope so!

Bruce Mowbray: I'm feeling fine -- just a bit tired from the traveling. . .

FcSeeker: <3

Bruce Mowbray: another day will fix that.

Agatha Macbeth: Not surprising

Chi Aho: Is it desirable to remain in that state for a very long time?

Bruce Mowbray: the boundless state?

Chi Aho: yes

Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm. . . good question...

FcSeeker: I wouldn't survive without being so almost all of the time

Bruce Mowbray: perhaps it is our natural "state"...

Bruce Mowbray: and the containers are a "constructed" state.

Agatha Macbeth: Brucie, who can tell?

Bruce Mowbray: only your own experience and intuition can tell.

Chi Aho: Well, i agree, there is a construction of social reality going on all the time

FcSeeker: I think much the same way Bruce....that it's only the state of the base naturality

Agatha Macbeth: Yes, agreed

Bruce Mowbray: effortless, actually -- so something 'natural'   going on.

Chi Aho: An infant is in his/her "natural state", but we must live in a social order

Bruce Mowbray: yes -- what a bum deal, huh?

Chi Aho: except for meditation, of course

Bruce Mowbray: pick your societal mandalas well, my friends.

Agatha Macbeth: Circle the square

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Chi Aho: The social order, society and culture, are all made up

Chi Aho: as are our constructed notions of what they are

Bruce Mowbray: indeed, chi.

Bruce Mowbray: so, it might be instructive (and also relaxing) to let all of those constructs "drop" every now and then.

Chi Aho: So we make up our ideas about things which themselves are made up, i.e. not really real at all

Bruce Mowbray: an idea is a sort of "container."

Bruce Mowbray: as is a label -- as is a symbol. . . as are social institutions.

Chi Aho: ideas are constructed notions and these constructs are made up of subsidiary concepts - more basic ideas; we live in a kind of symbolic universe

Chi Aho: and then act as though these symbols were "real"

Bruce Mowbray: we refer to reference points that refer to other reference points and so on ' ' ' ' -- When do we come to "real"?

FcSeeker: imho all is real....

FcSeeker: the question just is that to whom ...

Chi Aho: imho, what we perceive is but surface appearances, not the really real at all

 

BELL

 

Bruce Mowbray: imho, our experience is real.

FcSeeker: <3<3<3

Chi Aho: we see things at their material level, not at their level of reality

FcSeeker: well...Bruce is good friend to me, but I still wouldn't be able to identify his Avatar...

Bruce Mowbray: delightful sharing today, folks.

Bruce Mowbray: You mean you wouldn't be able to identify his avatar's typist??

Agatha Macbeth: I must away peeps - be well _/\_

Chi Aho: bye aggie

Bruce Mowbray: alas, I must also away.

Bruce Mowbray: bye, aggers!

Chi Aho: bye then also Bruce

FcSeeker: meaning that I know you very well, but I don't know how your Avatar looks like

FcSeeker: waves to Bruce

Chi Aho: bye little panda