The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha Macbeth. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.

Wester Kiranov: hi korel
Korel Laloix: Heya...
Wester Kiranov: hi agatha
Korel Laloix: In and aout a bit today again.. At work.
Agatha Macbeth: Hello
Agatha Macbeth: Aww K, always in and out :p
Agatha Macbeth: (and levitating too apparently)
Agatha Macbeth: Haven't seen you in a while Wester
Wester Kiranov: i know.
Agatha Macbeth: RL busy?
Wester Kiranov: i've been recovering from illness. by now i have the energy to occasionally drop by here again
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
Agatha Macbeth: Hope you are better now
Wester Kiranov: almost. thanks
Agatha Macbeth: Good :)
Wester Kiranov: hi eliza
Agatha Macbeth: Yes I've been through similar myself
Agatha Macbeth: Hello flouncy Liz ♥
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wester! Hi Agatha :D
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kori :D
Wester Kiranov: what happened to you then aga?
Agatha Macbeth: K is semi-afk
Agatha Macbeth: Me? Oh, well basically everything at once
Agatha Macbeth: Heart prob, had a knock on effect
Agatha Macbeth: which affected my liver kidneys and lungs
Agatha Macbeth: Was ill for about 3 months
Wester Kiranov: i find it hard to say when the being ill stops, actually
Agatha Macbeth: Very unpleasant
Eliza Madrigal: lingering effects?
Agatha Macbeth: Well for me thankfully there have been none (so far)
Eliza Madrigal: wonderful, not even fatigue?
Agatha Macbeth: No more than before :p
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Amazing how we take our health for granted
Eliza Madrigal: yes it is
Eliza Madrigal: we don't know what we don't know, sometimes
Wester Kiranov: that's good. i wish i could say that. i am still more tired than before, and dizzy. and one arm doesn't work right yet
Agatha Macbeth: OMG
Wester Kiranov: it is amazing how fragile we really are
Eliza Madrigal: oh, sorry to hear that Wester... are you in physical therapy of some kind?
Agatha Macbeth: As Sting said
Eliza Madrigal: yes... beautiful song
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Wester Kiranov: it's all slowly clearing up still
Agatha Macbeth: Wollie ♥
Wester Kiranov: i can ride a bike again now
Wester Kiranov: hi wol
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Eliza Madrigal: that's great!
Wol Euler: evning all
Agatha Macbeth: How is Wol today?
Wol Euler: headache, weather change
Agatha Macbeth: Awww (hug)
Wol Euler: otherwise fine, thanks
Wol Euler: how is everyone?
Eliza Madrigal: I went through Lupus 10+ years ago... recently it is active again but I'm thankful I know what to do .. back to 'first things'
Wol Euler: sorry to hear that, eliza :(
Agatha Macbeth: What is lupus?
Wester Kiranov: we've been discussing the fragility of health
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: auto-immune disease... basically a hyper active immune system
Agatha Macbeth nods
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Eliza Madrigal: that is somewhat blind
Eliza Madrigal: attacks the wrong things :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: "friendly fire"
Agatha Macbeth: Strange name...means wolf in Latin
Eliza Madrigal: yes.... many interesting reasons for that
Agatha Macbeth: Hmmm
Wol Euler listens.
  --BELL--1315
Eliza Madrigal: don't want to bore everyone :)
Agatha Macbeth: We *are* doing boredom this week :p
Agatha Macbeth: Hiya mick
Eliza Madrigal: but I brought it up because there is a slow recovery and lingering effects like Wester describes going through
Wol Euler: hello mick
Eliza Madrigal: have to learn to live differently
Mickorod Renard: Hiya everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :D
Agatha Macbeth: Is it a continuing thing Liz?
Wester Kiranov: hi mickey long time no see
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Wester
Eliza Madrigal: it was clear for years until recently but there is not a 'cure' , at least for the sort I've dealt with
Mickorod Renard: if you dont mind me asking, whats that eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: many types... wide spectrum
Agatha Macbeth: Oww
Eliza Madrigal: mine is 'light' :)
Agatha Macbeth: Lupus Mick
Mickorod Renard: ahh i see
Mickorod Renard: ty
Agatha Macbeth: (I didn't know either)
Eliza Madrigal: which still kept me in bed for nearly two years, a decade ago
Agatha Macbeth: OMG
Eliza Madrigal: I could go into how it has helped me too... but will spare you that too
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Agatha Macbeth: How did you manage? With the kids and everything?
Eliza Madrigal: many ways... was very hard, and standards basically fell off a cliff :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ara :)
Eliza Madrigal: How has that been for you Wester?
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)
Wester Kiranov: hi arabella
Agatha Macbeth: Yes I'm not surprised
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara..u r standing on my head
Mickorod Renard: :))
Agatha Macbeth: She's good at that :p
Wester Kiranov: my husband has helped a lot
arabella Ella: ooops
Wester Kiranov: starting with getting me to hospital in time...
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, that helps immensely!
Eliza Madrigal: wonderful
Eliza Madrigal: and you moved houses, right?
Wester Kiranov: yes. actually, the first day my husband went back to work, juggling schemes and all, totally stressed out, he got a phone call we could buy the house
Mickorod Renard: I had a friend many years ago who had a son with it..I cannot remember much about it now
Wester Kiranov: good news, bad timing
Eliza Madrigal: everything at once
Agatha Macbeth: Good grief
Wol Euler nods.

Eliza now lightens the atmosphere with a little dance

Eliza Madrigal: Oh, look what I got working....
Eliza Madrigal: ♬ 오빤~~강남 스~타일~~ ♪♪
Mickorod Renard: he he
Wol Euler: korean?
Agatha Macbeth: Erk
Eliza Madrigal: -«☁ »- 옵.옵.옵.옵. -«☁ »-
Wol Euler: oooh
Wol Euler: heheheh
Eliza Madrigal: heheheh
Wester Kiranov: :D
Eliza Madrigal: ♬ 헤~이 Sexy Lady~~ ♪♪
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Agatha Macbeth: Don't tell me, Yaku gave it you?
Wol Euler laughs.
Wol Euler: great.
Eliza Madrigal: no... went out of my way to find this one
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Eliza Madrigal: the kids love that video
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth: Well certainly makes a change from onigokko
Agatha Macbeth: and ducks
Eliza Madrigal grins
Wol Euler: the joys of second life :)
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Agatha Macbeth: Take up thy bed and walk
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Eliza Madrigal: and dance
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Agatha Macbeth: That too
Agatha Macbeth: Get the circulation going
Agatha Macbeth: Anyway Wester, hope your recovery is complete soon
Wol Euler: yes, get well soonest
arabella Ella: yes wish you a speedy recovery Webster
Wol Euler: and eliza
Wol Euler: and everyone else who needs it
Agatha Macbeth nods
Mickorod Renard: :)
Wester Kiranov: thanks. it is quite managable, actually
Eliza Madrigal: glad to hear that Wester
  --BELL--1330
Agatha Macbeth: We're all still here, that's the main thing
Wester Kiranov: very grateful for that
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: Lupus is an autimune system deficiency isnt it?
Eliza Madrigal: not deficiency actually Mick... sort of the opposite
Eliza Madrigal: even physically I'm a bit obsessive I guess, lol
Mickorod Renard: is it linked to diabetes 1 and rhumatoid athritus?
Mickorod Renard: ahh ok eliza ta
Eliza Madrigal: the latter, yes.... but there are a few types - one is mostly skin related
Agatha Macbeth: Times like this we need a doctor in PaB :p
Eliza Madrigal: and one can come temporarily as a result of medications
Eliza Madrigal looks for Vector :)
Agatha Macbeth: Is he one?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Wester Kiranov: i don't think a doctor would add much of value to these conversations :P
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Mickorod Renard: well..I am suprised sometimes how little doctors know about some of this stuff
Eliza Madrigal: that;s true
Agatha Macbeth: They could explain the technical stuff tho
Eliza Madrigal: some of it... it is pretty amazing how much patients lead their own treatment
Agatha Macbeth: Biology was never my best subject
Mickorod Renard: my wife has had diabetes for many years now and now has rhumatoid arthritus
Wester Kiranov: yes, but what would the technical stuff actually help us with?
Eliza Madrigal: ah, sorry to hear that Mick
Agatha Macbeth: Poor Morg
Eliza Madrigal: there are amazing SL groups actually, where people share a lot of info with one another
Wol Euler nods.
Wester Kiranov: sure, but i do think this group is more about what it all means to us personally than about the medical stuff
Eliza Madrigal: yes good point
Agatha Macbeth: Agreed
Mickorod Renard: I got really into it once,,i felt maybe it was the right thing to do,,,but after a while Morg got pissed off with having it and me nagging about what she should do
Eliza Madrigal: ^.^
Agatha Macbeth: Aww Mick
Mickorod Renard: he he
Wol Euler smiles.
Wester Kiranov: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Never wise to piss a woman off
Mickorod Renard: :)
Wester Kiranov: :D
Eliza Madrigal: it is sort of sweet but I get that... recently I read Ken McLeod say that couples shouldn't be 'teachers' to one another... sort of complicated, that
arabella Ella: it is just part of the dynamics of being a couple i suppose
Agatha Macbeth: I don't have that much experience of 'couples' so wouldn't know
arabella Ella: dynamics change depending on type of relationship
Eliza Madrigal: suppose so
Mickorod Renard: yea,,like trying to teach to drive
Eliza Madrigal: some seem to make the 'waves' and others not
arabella Ella: the way i see it friendship allows for greater toleration than being in a relationship as a couple
Agatha Macbeth: Ouch, don't go there Mick :p
Eliza Madrigal: that's interesting Ara
Wester Kiranov: i think that depends on the friendship too
arabella Ella: just reflect on the difference between friendship, marriage or parent / child relationship
arabella Ella: different dynamics and different levels of tolerance
arabella Ella: also different levels of sensitivity
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: and expectation
Wester Kiranov: i actually have a problem with my husband worrying too much about my diet
Mickorod Renard: kids i work with at school are ok,,cos you only have them a while,,,but its wierd now cos I have repetitions comming in as they have identical little bro's and sisters..he he
arabella Ella smiles
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Wol Euler: :)
arabella Ella: going back to what i said it is of course generalising and does not apply to everyone or all the time but it applies to quite a few
Eliza Madrigal: yes, as with what Ken McLeod said... not meant to be a formula
Eliza Madrigal: but something important in there
arabella Ella: i could give a brief example
Wol Euler listens.
Agatha Macbeth: Please do ara
Eliza Madrigal: yes please
arabella Ella: if a friend turns up late for an appointment we are often tolerant but if a wife or husband does so we could often take it as lack of respect
arabella Ella: the dynamics are different and expectastions too as Eliza rightly said
  --BELL--1345
Eliza Madrigal: it annoys me for less time maybe, but still annoys me :_
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's the old familiarity breeds contempt thing
Mickorod Renard: there is that too
arabella Ella: yes it is annoying but toleration levels are different as are expectations too
Agatha Macbeth nods
arabella Ella: maybe at times forgiveness too ... I dunno
Eliza Madrigal: quite agree
Mickorod Renard: I am not sure I beleive in forgiveness now
Wol Euler: interseting statement, mick
Eliza Madrigal: sensitivities to feelings of scrutiny from someone who is in intimate space
Wol Euler: could you elaborate on that?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Mick... wow
Mickorod Renard: too complicated for a session wol
Wol Euler: okay :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps we get more cynical as we get older?
Eliza Madrigal: well some of the padding wears off :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hmm, true
arabella Ella: forgiveness is often much more difficult with people who are closer or people who are blood relations
Agatha Macbeth: Oh yes
arabella Ella: with 'friends' we know we can control as we wish when we see them and what we do with them
Wol Euler: is that because we expect our relations to be as perfect as we are? :)
arabella Ella: maybe control is not the right word but i think you know what i mean
Eliza Madrigal: yes... spouse is late and other must 'fix that' because if not it is a lifetime of lateness
arabella Ella: our expectations somehow are much much higher in a close relationship or parent child relationship
Agatha Macbeth nods @ Ara
Eliza Madrigal: there is just so much under the umbrella of "forgiveness" too
Mickorod Renard: I am sure there is a more suitable alternative to forgivness,,like equanamity
arabella Ella: recent reflection on forgiveness brought this thought to mind
Mickorod Renard: forgive the lack of the e pls
Agatha Macbeth: Equanimity strikes again!
Wester Kiranov: thats interesting ara
arabella Ella: before forgiving if it is at all possible some people who are very close try to make the 'other' hurt as much as they were hurt a sort of retaliation ... which logically speaking is not fair
Korel Laloix: Very interseeting thoughts to hear for me.
Agatha Macbeth: WB K :)
Eliza Madrigal: ooh Ara, yes that hits something so real
Eliza Madrigal: not fair but also a way of wanting to be close.. strange
arabella Ella nods
Mickorod Renard: I have lost the plot
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: ok here goes Mick:
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Anybody seen Mick's plot?
Mickorod Renard: grin
arabella Ella: someone hurts me and before i forgive or even consider forgiveness i instinctively feel that I need to hurt them back before
arabella Ella: does that make sense?
Mickorod Renard: ahh yes
Mickorod Renard: ty
Agatha Macbeth: It doesn't make sense no, but I understand :p
Eliza Madrigal: or know that they've been hurt by the situation equally
Eliza Madrigal: people are not reasonable :)
arabella Ella: a sense of making them experience what they made me experience ... which is not fair if one thinks rationally
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Mickorod Renard: to not retaliate is humbling to the one who has offended
arabella Ella: saying sorry or apologising is often not enough
Agatha Macbeth: Comes down to hurt feelings
Agatha Macbeth: But some cope with it bettter than others
Eliza Madrigal: I feel that forgiveness... apologizing... is like a vow. It doesn't mean that one feels that yet but they aspire to and are saying they won't close off
arabella Ella: it may be part of human beings instincts like the fight or flight instinct
Agatha Macbeth: (and with fewer t's)
Mickorod Renard: I think we live in a reactionary culture tho,,thats the problem
Wester Kiranov: guys - i'm going to get some sleep
Mickorod Renard: I think I am with you there Eliza
Wol Euler nods to Eliza
Wester Kiranov: nice to see you all again
Eliza Madrigal: Night Wester, good to see you
Mickorod Renard: bye wester,,sleep tite
Agatha Macbeth: Good idea Wester, be well
Wol Euler: goodnight wester, sleep well
arabella Ella: nite Wester nice to see you too!
Wester Kiranov: bye
Eliza Madrigal: if equaniminous, maybe no need to forgive because reactionaryness doesn't stick :)
Eliza Madrigal: (two made up words in one sentence, wow, hah)
Agatha Macbeth: Interesting word 'reactionaryness'
arabella Ella: maybe that is why compassion is so important cos if someone has done some wrong or injuustice to another person then compassion is the only way around it
Mickorod Renard: this is it Eliza
arabella Ella: or dropping
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Mickorod Renard: I found forgivness still has attachments
arabella Ella: adopting an attitude of compassion towards the person who has wronged you or caused you inujustice
Mickorod Renard: and also,,if ne looks properly,,there is too much in the world that one would have to forgive
Agatha Macbeth: Make me think of the Tao
Korel Laloix: Yes, it is more of a process than an action for me.
Agatha Macbeth: +s
Eliza Madrigal: more than one Tao? ;-)
Wol Euler nods.
Agatha Macbeth: Could be!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: perhaps adopting an attiude of compassion is a skill which one can learn and apply with time practice and patience
Korel Laloix: It does get easier to not judge the more you help people.
Agatha Macbeth: It seems a skill many don't want to learn tho: they just blame others for everything
Wol Euler: oh yes, definitely
Eliza Madrigal listens
arabella Ella: oh Aggers I hate that 'blame others' attitude!
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh, me too!
Mickorod Renard: I had a thought this morning...on the way to work,,,I am sure everything in the universe is balanced,,and should I become a better person then someone else will have to get worse,,i feel I couldnt impose that on anyone
arabella Ella: when others do something which creates injustice they are doing it out of weakness
  --BELL--1400
Agatha Macbeth: 'It's not me it's everyone else'
arabella Ella hates that 'pass-it-on' stuff
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zen
Eliza Madrigal: maybe that is a kind of disorder too... that feeling of fault 'out there'
Mickorod Renard: Hi Zen
Agatha Macbeth: Yes Liz
Zen Arado: Hi all
Wol Euler: hello zen
Korel Laloix: The sad part is, that we have a harder time forgiving ourselves then others a lot of the time.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh definitely K
Eliza Madrigal: yes Korel
Mickorod Renard: yes eliza,,yet life wud be rubbish without the excitement
Wol Euler: yes korel, very true
Agatha Macbeth: 'Interesting times'
arabella Ella: Hiya Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: not sure Mick... but glad you are doing your part not to get too much better, hah
Mickorod Renard: he he
Agatha Macbeth: Wonder if there's a Tao of Rupert?
Eliza Madrigal: oooh
arabella Ella: personally i think the attitude Aggers mentioned the blaming of others is a learnt behaviour ... learnt as part of one's upbringing unfortunately and passed on from one generation to the next
Agatha Macbeth: Yes...
Agatha Macbeth: Education is a great reliever of ignorance :p
Zen Arado: it's their fault
Zen Arado: :)
Mickorod Renard: I quite like blame culture,,I been pondering it lately
Eliza Madrigal: not sure... I just see so many complexities in it... for instance it 'is' important sometimes to go into the past and acknowledge wrongs done that affected patterns...
Eliza Madrigal: not to stay there
Eliza Madrigal: but to go there and be able to say some things aloud
arabella Ella: what good could that do Eliza?
arabella Ella: you can never turn back time
Mickorod Renard: the reduction of blame culture was something inspired in industry..its not real
arabella Ella: at least not so far
Agatha Macbeth: Even Dr Who couldn't save Amy and Rory :(
Mickorod Renard: I agree with you Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: my feelings about this are so complex
Mickorod Renard: everyone else will have to forgive me
Eliza Madrigal: I really think it is both
Eliza Madrigal: taking full responsibility and also acknowledging situations and players because I think we do remember and hold grudges perhaps... maybe even physically
Wol Euler: I think it does a lot of good actually
Wol Euler: facing and dealing with problems, taking responsibility yes
arabella Ella: my thinking today is more likely to be: this is the present situation, where can I go from here and how can i move ahead?
Eliza Madrigal: there was someone in my life I 'tried to forgive' for many years and felt that I had, but when something would come up with that person it was all still there... so it wasn't quite real
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Eliza Madrigal: it was a gift to face it, though generally I don't go looking for that - just try not to suppress it if it comes up
Agatha Macbeth: I guess this is where religion helps many people
Korel Laloix: I have some that I just can't quite get to the forgiveness level with at all.
Wol Euler: just let it happen, korel :) it may take decades, that's fine
arabella Ella: i can understand that quite well too Eliza thanks for sharing
Agatha Macbeth: You're young yet :)
Korel Laloix: That is very true.
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
Wol Euler: hehe, now I didn't want to say that :)
Korel Laloix: At least I have moved to apathy vs rage...
Korel Laloix: Partly thanks to this group.
Agatha Macbeth: That is a beginning
Wol Euler smiles.
Korel Laloix: So thank you all for listening.
Agatha Macbeth: YW :)
Wol Euler: it's been our pleasure, and our benefit too
Eliza Madrigal: generally I think your attitude is very healthy Ara... maybe it is not 'wanting' to blame anyone that allows one to go back into hard memories and actually drop the grudges
Agatha Macbeth gives K a big hug
Eliza Madrigal: ((((Kori))) so nice to hear that
Korel Laloix smiles
Zen Arado: I think it is good to try to see the world through the other person's eyes
arabella Ella: it is difficult to provide an easy explanation Eliza but life is often tough and we learn as we move forward and away from certain experiences
Zen Arado: in a way they can't help being the way they are
Mickorod Renard: I was so pissed off at some stuff I seriously wanted to go back in time to sort it out..eventually I came to my senses and realized whats done is done
Zen Arado: I know a man who is a bit mean but he grew up very poor in the 30's
Agatha Macbeth smiles @ Mick
Eliza Madrigal: don't you think he's had opportunities and feedback in his life to be less mean, Zen?
Zen Arado: maybe but early conditioning is strong
Wol Euler: perhaps he IS less mean, ara; perhaps he was enormously mean as a youth and has improved drastically to only be a bit mean now
arabella Ella: ehrm ... not ara ... zen said that wol
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe he'll get a visit from some ghosts this Xmas :p
Eliza Madrigal: true Wol (maybe Ara and I are blending - hehe)
  --BELL--1415
arabella Ella smiles
Wol Euler: well, you do look alike. Actually it was Eliza
Wol Euler: must be the headware confusing me
Zen Arado: mean in hte sense of being miserly with money and hoarding it too much
Zen Arado: feeling insecure
arabella Ella: experience has taught me that we can change our ways but only with time patience good will and strong motivation
Eliza Madrigal: Dr Who of Christmas past...
Wol Euler: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yep
Zen Arado: to me it's like things drop away when the right time comes..
Zen Arado: you can't force it
Wol Euler nods.
Mickorod Renard: we must originate from an archetype,,but its our past that has corrupted us
Zen Arado: pretty much what Ara said
Eliza Madrigal: I feel that way too.. but maybe there are conditions that one can nurture to make the sloughing off more likely
arabella Ella: you cant force it but you can work on it ... like worrying too much and working on worrying less
Zen Arado: but you have to have the desire to work on it too
Zen Arado: like Shopenhaeur said
arabella Ella: yes i mentioned strong motivation earlier
Agatha Macbeth: And you were right!
Eliza Madrigal: I think that's why so much religious imagery has 'offering' in it.... aspiration
Eliza Madrigal: it is like showing your heart   

Never easy!

Mickorod Renard: I like equanamity...I am sure it fixes everything
Zen Arado: something about ..you can choose what to do but you can't change what you want to do...
Eliza Madrigal: :) Mick
Zen Arado: choose
Zen Arado: but isn't equanimity what you feel after things have been dropped mIck?
arabella Ella: why cant you change what you want to do Zen?
Eliza Madrigal: start at the end, Zen :)
Zen Arado: things that disturbed equanimity
arabella Ella: like habits which are harmful?
Zen Arado: but you can't change the desire to do it
Mickorod Renard: Zen,,I think that is true,,but one never knows equanamity until its found
Zen Arado: you can only try not to give in to the desire
Zen Arado: seems to me
Zen Arado: true Mick
Zen Arado: words...
arabella Ella: but if you take stuff like smoking gambling alcohol etc then with time and motivation and patience even the desire may fade substantially
arabella Ella: (addictions)
Zen Arado: but it kinda happens on its own don't you think?
Zen Arado: or not
Mickorod Renard: I thought those things wre what you did when you had everything
Eliza Madrigal: or doesn't... nods
arabella Ella: no i dont think it happens on its own
Zen Arado: it comes from my genes and upbrnging, interests etc I think
Zen Arado: my culture
Eliza Madrigal: if not on its own, do you think we can work on these things 'for someone else' as in the case of changing for an 'other' - which rarely seems to go well
arabella Ella: but that is totally deterministic Zen isnt it
Zen Arado: in a sense
Zen Arado: but determinism assumes a lone individual
arabella Ella: @Eliza changing another is much more difficult if not impossible i find we can support others and only if they are motivated to change
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Zen Arado: (getting back to nondualism again..better shut up)
Wol Euler: I think she meant changing oneself to please anohter
arabella Ella: he he
Agatha Macbeth: Don't say 'we' Zen :p
Eliza Madrigal: yes I suppose with that question I am trying to get at where desire is, what desire is
arabella Ella cannot understand why determinism should be individualistic but never mind :)
Zen Arado: I seea flow of interconnecting influences
Mickorod Renard: I do often think,,that there are changing tides in desire to affect ones own self to stay attracted to others,,,hold on I lost track of that
Zen Arado: and I am part of that
Mickorod Renard: yes, I think I meant to say that
arabella Ella: well i think changing oneself to please another goes back to what i said previously about dynamics and relationships ... we often change ourselves in a relationship
Zen Arado: not being pushed around by it but part of it
Eliza Madrigal: we have a choice of what to 'feed' but to what extent really... feels some things one cannot get to on their own
Mickorod Renard: I have often wondered about my value,,from the position of how much someone else is prepared to put themselves out for me
Zen Arado: I have to see myself as apart and being forced to do things to believe in determinism
Zen Arado: don't know if that makes any sense
Mickorod Renard: eventually I came to realize I am worthless
arabella Ella: the 'apart' bit does not make sense to me Zen i must admit :)
Mickorod Renard: which is similar in words to priceless
Eliza Madrigal: :) Mick
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yah
Eliza Madrigal: what is the biblical saying about putting gd to the test.... hm
Zen Arado: determinism seems to require an individual thing that is being determined
Wol Euler smiles to see the Kaballah rubbing off on Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Eliza Madrigal: I'm incredibly influenced
Wol Euler grins.
Zen Arado: and influencing
Wol Euler: we must talk about that some day, if you wish
Eliza Madrigal: personality defect or strength, tae your pick
arabella Ella: no idea about that biblical saying Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: *take
  --BELL--1430
Mickorod Renard: sounds fun
Eliza Madrigal: would like that Wol thanks
Wol Euler smiles.
Zen Arado: Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son Isaac
Eliza Madrigal: the line has to do with testing and tempting, and somehow seems to relate to the way we are with others too....
arabella Ella: on that is so difficult to comprehend Zen
Eliza Madrigal: testing them ie 'how much am I worth to you'
Eliza Madrigal: a stretch of a thought but what popped up
Agatha Macbeth: Pop goes the weasel (again)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: I find most the stories easier to comprehend if one looks for the message rather than takes them litterally
Zen Arado: so many of our assumptions are based on the idea that we are a separate individual
Mickorod Renard: I have to go now,,but have enjoyed tonite loads
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Mick, me too
Mickorod Renard: tons
arabella Ella: bye Mick
Eliza Madrigal: nice to see you
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Mick, love to Morg
Zen Arado: nite Mick
Eliza Madrigal: time for me to go too
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone,,love to you all
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Lizzie
Wol Euler: ybe mick, bye eliza, take care
Agatha Macbeth: Flounce well
arabella Ella: bye Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: oh... Zen... look....
Zen Arado: byee Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: ♬ 오빤~~강남 스~타일~~ ♪♪
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Agatha Macbeth: OMG
Eliza Madrigal: -«☁ »- 옵.옵.옵.옵. -«☁ »-
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: this is what I was trying to get working in your session, lol
Eliza Madrigal: ♬ 헤~이 Sexy Lady~~ ♪♪
Eliza Madrigal: hahahha
arabella Ella: he he
Zen Arado: great :)
Agatha Macbeth: Gaya would be proud :p
arabella Ella: nice moves Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: that would be nice
Eliza Madrigal: hah, thanks
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now ((((( friends ))))))
Zen Arado: yeh Psy is Korean
Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now (((Liz)))

Agatha Macbeth: Ah well...
Zen Arado: sudden hush
Wol Euler: all over the world tonight
Agatha Macbeth: Always happens when Eliza leaves :)
Zen Arado: :)
arabella Ella: ah 50 years of the beatles
Zen Arado: yeh
Wol Euler: oooh
arabella Ella: and tomorrow steve jobs one year gone
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Wol Euler: :(
arabella Ella: time sure flies
Zen Arado: an Eliza vacuum
Agatha Macbeth: A hoover?
Zen Arado: :)
arabella Ella: so many changes in our lifetimes
arabella Ella: so different today from the first days of the beatles
Zen Arado: I was writing about my childhood again
arabella Ella: yet james bond moves on and is still around
Wol Euler: oh?
Agatha Macbeth: Glutton for punishment Zen
Zen Arado: I had a happy childhood
arabella Ella: nice
Zen Arado: mostly
Wol Euler smiles.
Zen Arado: think we socialized more than kids today
Wol Euler: we certainly did more face-to-face than they seem to
Agatha Macbeth: 'It were just after t'war'
Zen Arado: yep ;)
Zen Arado: with my ration book
Wol Euler: 'appen
arabella Ella: he he
Agatha Macbeth: We dreamed about living in cardboard boxes
Zen Arado: I do remember them
Wol Euler: hello vorder
Zen Arado: ha ha
Vorder Forder: hello
Zen Arado: we only had paper boxes
arabella Ella: everyone was so less rushed ... hardly ever in a hurry ... even when shopping for groceries in small stores
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Vorder
Zen Arado: Hi Vorder
Vorder Forder: hello Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: You seem to have Boxy's sense of timing :p
arabella Ella: Hiya Vorder
Zen Arado: no supermarkets
Vorder Forder: and hello Zen
arabella Ella: shops with shop assistants!
arabella Ella: and only cash
Agatha Macbeth: We still have those
Zen Arado: queueing in every shop
arabella Ella: no plastic money
Wol Euler: ... who knew what they were selling and actually *could* assist you
arabella Ella nods
Agatha Macbeth grins
Zen Arado: sawdust floors
Agatha Macbeth: I remember them
arabella Ella: no convenience food
Zen Arado: no fridges
Zen Arado: no telephone
arabella Ella: crisps a real luxury and at the cinema it was difficult to find the salt which was separate
arabella Ella: comics
Zen Arado: call box only
Agatha Macbeth: The little blue bag
Zen Arado: ha
arabella Ella: another luxury - sweetened milk - yummy!
Zen Arado: condensed milk
arabella Ella: out of the can with a spoon
Zen Arado: Ideal Milk
arabella Ella: we still have that here for tea Zen
Vorder Forder: when I was young we only had appels during christmas
arabella Ella: altho then most ppl used tea leaves - loose ones
Agatha Macbeth nods
Zen Arado: chicken a luxury
  --BELL--1445
arabella Ella: brain omlettes - thought to make us brainier
arabella Ella: got to go now did not realise it was so late
arabella Ella: good night everyone!
Agatha Macbeth: Didn't work for me
Wol Euler: bye ara, sleep well
arabella Ella: lovely to c u all here!
Zen Arado: ha ha me either
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Ara, sleep well
Agatha Macbeth: Zen too
Wol Euler: bye zen, take care
Zen Arado: better go too
Zen Arado: bye all
Wol Euler: it is nearly midnight ...
Agatha Macbeth: Not here :p
Wol Euler: wait a while
Agatha Macbeth: Only 22:46
Wol Euler: I think I shall move on too
Wol Euler: have to be bright eyed and bushy tailed for my session tomorrow morning
Agatha Macbeth: Looks like that's it then
Vorder Forder: have a nice evening
Agatha Macbeth: Tomorow, oh Friday yes
Agatha Macbeth: Good to have you back
Wol Euler: yep :) already friday again
Wol Euler: good to be back, mostly
Wol Euler: schlaf gut, liebling
Agatha Macbeth: Mostly? :p
Wol Euler: bye korel, take care
Agatha Macbeth: Bye K, work well
Wol Euler smiles.