2012.10.08 13:00 - Origins

Alfred Kelberry: hi princess :)
Alfred Kelberry: yes, made it this time
Alfred Kelberry: or he wants us to think he's away
Eliza Madrigal: sure he just wanted to make sure to be here :)
Alfred Kelberry: er... you've come to this session? :)
Eliza Madrigal: yup... for a little while anyway
Eliza Madrigal: in about 30 minutes I need to drive my daughter for Obama tickets
Alfred Kelberry: is it overlapped with another meeting?
Alfred Kelberry: obama tickets?
Eliza Madrigal: it isn't... but the time may take taming since people have become accustomed to no host at this time
Eliza Madrigal: yes... he will be here on Thursday so she wants to see him
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: didn't know you have to purchase tickets to see obama :)
Eliza Madrigal: not purchase but stand in line
Alfred Kelberry: what venue?
Eliza Madrigal: Pema! Gilles!
Eliza Madrigal: he'll speak at a university
Alfred Kelberry: hello there, mr wolf :)
Pema Pera: hi there!
Gilles Kuhn: hello to all
Alfred Kelberry: ah, pema! thought you'd miss this one :)
Pema Pera: you missed the previous two ones :-)
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, miami uni?
Eliza Madrigal: yes university of miami
Pema Pera: but I'm glad we're at the same place at the same time now!
Alfred Kelberry: pema, yes. i have. but what is your interest in this session? curiosity or concern for pab conduct? :)
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Pema Pera: ???
Pema Pera: you are asking strange questions, Alfred :)
Alfred Kelberry: yes, this is this kind of a session :)
Pema Pera is wondering what kind of concern he could have for pab conduct . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: is this the "tough questions" hour?
Pema Pera: or what would drive Alfred to ask about that
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, not particularly, but no censorship applied here :)
Gilles Kuhn: was there any before?
Alfred Kelberry: pema, you're a rare visitor in sl, but did attend two of my previously appointed sessions :)
Pema Pera: well, I am interested in the questions you raised
Alfred Kelberry: which ones?
Pema Pera: btw, will you post the session, Alfred?
Alfred Kelberry: sure
Pema Pera: oh, the various ones on email, and some in sessions
Pema Pera: but feel free to start from scratch, of course!
--BELL--
Gilles Kuhn: and whose question did you raise Boxy?
Gilles Kuhn: what question i mant
Gilles Kuhn: meant*
Wol Euler: hello pema, boxy, gilles, eliza
Alfred Kelberry: if i'm correct, pema refers to questions on scientific significance of pab and lack of critical input
Alfred Kelberry: woly!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon too (out there)
Pema Pera: hi Wol and Zon
Pema Pera: I'm happy to talk about any question you want to raise, Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: i had no topic prepared for this meeting though. not sure of the format yet.
Wol Euler: hello zon
Zon Kwan: heya
Gilles Kuhn: helllo to all newcomers
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: since pema is a rare guest and present at this time, i'd like to ask about your actual research on astrophysics. what are you up to now?
Gilles Kuhn: about critical input i think that pema and i had very lively discussion on methodology in public some years ago
Alfred Kelberry: mr zon
Alfred Kelberry: oh yes, quite lively ones, mr wolf. on account of which you were expelled from the pheno workshop, as i remember :)
Pema Pera: actually, right now I'm getting more interested in the origin of life
Alfred Kelberry: pema, is it a part of ias activity?
Wol Euler: that's all just water under the bridge, boxy. PaB assumes that people learn from experience, including ourselves :)
Gilles Kuhn: indeed Alfred i was after being invited to attend as it was given to me the choice do as we want or go
Alfred Kelberry: woly, not familiar with the water term
Pema Pera: it could be -- I mean, my job here is to run the program of interdisciplinary studies, which can include almost anything :)
Zon Kwan: origin of biologica life ?
Gilles Kuhn: interesting Pema do you know the book of nobel prize winner de Duve on that?
Pema Pera: yes, and there have been a number of other books
Gilles Kuhn: bookS*
Pema Pera: but basically nobody knows how life got started
Gilles Kuhn: there are a lot of theories
Zon Kwan: what do you mean by life ?
Pema Pera: neither how it did on Earth, or how/whether it did elsewhere
Alfred Kelberry: what does the book say?
Pema Pera: Gilles?
Gilles Kuhn: the de Duve books are justly about the origin of life he describe how it would have happened at biomolecular level too origin of cell etc.
Pema Pera: the main question is how to find a believable path from phyics and chemistry to biology -- what could have been the steps
Gilles Kuhn: exactly de Duve work pema
Pema Pera: all life as we know it is made out of very similar cells
Pema Pera: with very similar DNA/RNA dynamics
Pema Pera: and all life has replication and metabolism, for example, but which came first and in what form?
Pema Pera: or did they arise both?
Alfred Kelberry: gilles, what is his explanation as to the origin? random fluctuations?
Zon Kwan: interdependent rising...
Pema Pera: and how did the chemical reactions get protected? In a cell well? On a substratum? Many possibilities . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: Will look forward to reading this session and am sorry to slip away so soon
Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care
Pema Pera: bye Eliza!
Zon Kwan: bye eliza
Eliza Madrigal waves warmly
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, say hi to obama :)
Gilles Kuhn: from what i remember Alfred as i read those book due to the asking of a friend of mine which is prof neuropediatry in Paris for having an epistemological view
Alfred Kelberry: and what is your wolf's conclusion? :)
Gilles Kuhn: de Duve claim that by know and existing chemical process with the "good" condition you can have life from ""scratch"" and he describe several porcesses
Gilles Kuhn: well when de Duve speak of biology and chemistry he is very interesting and convincing when he try to enter more philosophical ground however....
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: i guess you can't avoid that delving into the origin of life
Zon Kwan: dont we need new science as chemistry and biology are limited to their own conceps
Gilles Kuhn: what do you mean Zon?
Gilles Kuhn: as by definition science is about to find new things or to create them
Alfred Kelberry: er, pab has a little different view on that :)
Zon Kwan: i mean eg, by defining what life is
Gilles Kuhn: huh?
Gilles Kuhn: i liked varela analysis on the concept of lie
Gilles Kuhn: life*
Pema Pera: I think most (bio)chemists would answer that life is an emergent property
Zon Kwan: if whole cosmos is alive, the question is from which perspective we look at it
Pema Pera: just like wetness is an emergent property of water molecules
Gilles Kuhn: welll as in consciousness studies i dislike a lot the concept of "emergence" it meant a lot i dont know
Pema Pera: a single H2O molecules is neither wet nor dry, but a bit of water is wet
Zon Kwan: life is not something that emerges from matter
Gilles Kuhn: question of level of perception Pema
Pema Pera: I agree, I'm just answering what most of my colleagues would say
Gilles Kuhn: and life is matter we dont know any life which is not ONLY matter btw
Pema Pera: (I agree that emergence is not an explanation, I mean)
Zon Kwan: so atoms are alive
Gilles Kuhn: they are definitely not
Pema Pera: whether life could be said to arise from matter is an interesting question
Pema Pera: and partly a matter of definitions (of what life is and what matter is)
Zon Kwan: thats why a definiton is needed
Zon Kwan: yes
Gilles Kuhn: yes Pema but may i point out that there you do the philosopher and i the scientist ?;-)
Zon Kwan: lol
Pema Pera: unfortunately, there is no agreed-upon definition of life, interestingly
Zon Kwan: yup
Pema Pera: I'm happy to play any role, Giles :-)
Gilles Kuhn: yes they are for example limit case are virus a life form ? are prions ?
Pema Pera: exactly
Alfred Kelberry: pema, do you plan to employ conventional science or pab meditation practices in your research on the origins of life?
Gilles Kuhn: we created the concept of life long ago before we had any idea of micro organism existence and of cell theory....
Pema Pera: but in whatever role I play, I would never want to postulate that "X can never happen" :-)
Pema Pera: Alfred, at first I certainly would want to see what conventional science has to offer
Pema Pera: that's already very interesting
Gilles Kuhn: i would not either POSTULATE that but i will most certainly for some X say that it is MOST improbable it is the case
Pema Pera: what I meant is that I wouldn't want to say that life cannot arise from non-living matter
Gilles Kuhn: and i would certainly not climb on a plane working on monst improbable engeneering principles....
Pema Pera: :)
Zon Kwan: to me existence is pulsating life in different forms and with different level of awareness, so where is a point that is not alive
Wol Euler: oh but you do, every time :)
Gilles Kuhn: Urret and Miller experiment.....
Alfred Kelberry: pema, do you think ias would allow zen tradition involved in research?
Gilles Kuhn: Zon you speak of life in your own subjective perspective which is very nice but i dont think it as anything to de with biological life
Pema Pera: as I see the scientific challenge: we know about phase transitions between solid, fluid, gaseous; the question is how about a phase transition from simple to complex -- which might mean the origin of life
Wol Euler: ((scratch that, I misunderstood Gilles' direction of thought))
Gilles Kuhn: for that Pema there are lot of scieentific empirical observation of creation by pure chemical process of biochemical component
Zon Kwan: waves
Wol Euler: bye zon
Gilles Kuhn: bye zon
Pema Pera: Alfred: sure, if there would be a clear connection point -- if it would be just wishful thinking, I think it would not be respected
Pema Pera: bye Zon!
Alfred Kelberry: what are such clear points might be?
Alfred Kelberry: in reference to the origins of life
Pema Pera: nothing that immediately comes to mind, at this point
Gilles Kuhn: justly which is interesting is that we have not a clear broke line between life and not life which mean at my opinion that in that continuity from pure non alive chemical to let say a blue algae you see evolution chain
Wol Euler: I'm curious, what makes you think that teh purpose of Zen is to explain the origin of life?
Pema Pera: I see three major questions about our reality, the questions of existence, life, and consciousness
Alfred Kelberry: huh?
Pema Pera: Zen might be more applicable to the last one
Pema Pera: the big bang, and the transition to life are the first two, at least in terms of our current science
Gilles Kuhn: actually pema i think that the question can be resumed as the question of consciousness which is mandatory to have any questions....
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: but that is not how current science is typically structured
Alfred Kelberry: woly, pema is a known adept of zen of which pab is the origin and he employs its methods in his research
Gilles Kuhn: agreed Pema
Pema Pera: it is a matter of meta levels
Gilles Kuhn: and due to that consciousness is a big problem for the scientific method
--BELL--
Gilles Kuhn: as empirical method without saying it take phenomenological consciousness fro granted so when its that very feature that is to be studied : problem
Pema Pera: if we play chess, and then want to talk about the wood in the board, or the world championships in chess, we can do so, but in either case we are not adding moves to the ongoing game. I'm interested in both: making a move from time to time, and talking on meta levels.
Gilles Kuhn: well as we know western science is efficient due to its reductionistic methodology which i think is adapted fro the origins of life problem
Pema Pera: reductionistic methods are great; but if they lead to reductionistic explanations they overshoot
Pema Pera: leaving out aspects
Alfred Kelberry: pema, do you have a working hypothesis on the origins of life?
Gilles Kuhn: but is problematic for the consciousness problem and too for the problem that you define as the problem of existence which i presume is the old leibnizian killing question "why there is something and not nothing"....
Wol Euler: hello aggers
Agatha Macbeth: Wocher
Alfred Kelberry: ms aga :)
Pema Pera: hi Ag!
Gilles Kuhn: hello Ag
Pema Pera: No, Alfred, I'm still learning the basics
Pema Pera: but I'm mostly interested in a game-theoretic way
Alfred Kelberry: pema, it would be a nice kira workshop :)
Pema Pera: not so much specific biochemistry reactions, but more the question of transitions to complexity
Pema Pera: it could be, but it would require a lot of detailed knowledge as background
Gilles Kuhn: btw Pema may i suggest you these :
Gilles Kuhn: A Guided Tour of the Living Cell (1984) ISBN 0-7167-5002-3 Blueprint for a Cell: the nature and origin of life (1991) ISBN 0-89278-410-5 Vital Dust: life as a cosmic imperative (1996) ISBN 0-465-09045-1 Life Evolving: molecules, mind, and meaning (2002) ISBN 0-19-515605-6 Singularities: landmarks on the pathways of life (2005) ISBN 978-0-521-84195-5
Alfred Kelberry: pema, so does exploration of reality within pab, as well :)
Pema Pera: thanks, Giles
Pema Pera: oh yes, I agree, Alfred!
Pema Pera: I've been exploring for most of my life :-)
Alfred Kelberry: pema, yes, and none of us is an expert - yet we've been doing it for 4 years now :) so, why not give origins of life workshop a try
Gilles Kuhn: well that would be hard without some biologists
Wol Euler: organize one, boxy! make it happen
Pema Pera: I'm happy to lead a workshop on PaB, given that I've explored that topic for 40 years; but I've looked at the origin of life for only 40 days or so . . . .
Wol Euler smiles.
Alfred Kelberry: pema, we could start on this session. say 15 minutes, weekly :)
Gilles Kuhn: Pema you begin to sound biblical beware of forties...
Pema Pera: oh, I'm happy to talk about it, I just wouldn't yet want to call it a workshop
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: pema, deal!
Pema Pera: :-)
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Wol Euler: hello bleu
Alfred Kelberry: oh, hi, bleu :)
Pema Pera: hi Bleu!
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Bleu :)
Gilles Kuhn: hi Bleu
Bleu Oleander: ntsy Pema :)
Pema Pera: same here, Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: and Gilles :)
Alfred Kelberry: pema, we'll simply share our findings for 15 minutes
Pema Pera: fine :)
Gilles Kuhn: ok perhaps find someone to make a talk about Urey Miller experiment
Alfred Kelberry: pema, what else do you do in ias?
--BELL--
Pema Pera: various things, astrophysics computer simulations, running interdisciplinary seminars, organizing lunches to talk about topics ranging from logic and computer science and natural science topics to history and philosophy, a wide range.
Gilles Kuhn: sound like an intellectual paradise how do you enlist?
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: actually, I have to leave now, to lead my next seminar :)
Gilles Kuhn: why dont put them on air in sl pema?
Wol Euler: bye pema, it was great to see you here again
Pema Pera: good seeing you all here again!
Bleu Oleander: bye Pema :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Pem, nice to see you again
Pema Pera: bfn
Gilles Kuhn: bye
Alfred Kelberry: pema, is it possible to organize one of such seminars here on this session?
Alfred Kelberry: er... i'd like that
Gilles Kuhn: too late boxy the dutch fleet escaped again...;-)
Agatha Macbeth: A busy man...
Alfred Kelberry: oh well
Alfred Kelberry: time is up
Agatha Macbeth: How's your rectangular bottom Alf?
Wol Euler chuckles.
Alfred Kelberry: good
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Wol Euler: are its corners sharp as ever?
Bleu Oleander: great for sitting on flat surfaces :)
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Agatha Macbeth: Bless him
Bleu Oleander: why?
Alfred Kelberry: thank you for coming
Alfred Kelberry: see you next week
Bleu Oleander: ok bye mp