The Guardian for this meeting was Riddle Sideways. The comments are by Riddle Sideways.

Riddle Sideways: Hi Xs
Xs Andree: Hello, Riddle. How are you today??
Riddle Sideways: very nice swishy outfit
Xs Andree: Thank you. It was the obsession of one of the first builders in Second Life that i met.
Riddle Sideways: thank you for asking, had not done an inventory of conditions yet today
Xs Andree smiles, listening.

Riddle Sideways: ooooooooooooooooo, just saw a phantom train car
Riddle Sideways: others have reported seeing the ghost train cars
Xs Andree giggles
Xs Andree: I think it is a UFO
Xs Andree: Jaaayssooonnn....I thought I saw a UFO....Jaysssooonn...
Riddle Sideways: anyway, with multiple personalalities, modern life, having so much and Being what it is
Riddle Sideways: there are so many to calculate "how are you"
Riddle Sideways: might be for Holloween
Riddle Sideways: a UFO ghost train
Riddle Sideways: but, now to listen about first builders
Xs Andree grins

Riddle Sideways: hark, a mighty pirate approacheth
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Xs Andree: I wanted a cenobite inspired dress, something clive Barkery...
Alfred Kelberry: thought you were druth for a second, xs :)

Xs Andree: Azrael Demain, the builder for Falln Angel was a huge fan of Barker, but I didn't know it at the time. I just asked if he'd do a custom work for me.
Xs Andree grins at Mighty
Alfred Kelberry: riddle, how's cali?
                      --BELL--
Riddle Sideways: listens to more holloweenish stuff
Riddle Sideways: getting dressed up in costumes
Riddle Sideways: being our fantasies
Riddle Sideways: Being

Xs Andree: So he spent an agonizing week, wrestling with prim needles and spines, raged at his friends in fitful rants and frustration....hated me for the rest of his life, i think...
Xs Andree: and gave me this.
Xs Andree: in black, red and white
Xs Andree: ao on
Riddle Sideways: so nice a gift
Riddle Sideways: full of hate :)
Xs Andree: We don't speak much anymore, but when I miss him, I remember this gift, and realize...
Xs Andree: There really isn't much more to be said.
Xs Andree: he named it after me and sells it at his shop still.
Riddle Sideways: and what does the ao do?
Alfred Kelberry: oh, it's halloween. i forgot.
Xs Andree: lol, he only made the outfit, this is my animation override, a gift from my first friends here, I never replaced it.
Xs Andree nods nods
Xs Andree: Yeah, this was my 06 costume
Xs Andree: A cross between Angelique on hellraiser, and the porcupine woman in Nightbreed

Riddle Sideways: Hi Xir
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Rid! :)
Xirana Oximoxi: Hello boxy, Xs
Xirana Oximoxi: is the fountain working again?
Riddle Sideways: Halloween and the theme of 'deception' seem to go together
Xirana Oximoxi: yes:)
Riddle Sideways: yes, recording seems to be working
Xirana Oximoxi: ok:)
Xirana Oximoxi: we have clever techniciens here:)
Riddle Sideways: putting on costumes of our fantasies and who do we deceive?
Xs Andree: ao off
Xirana Oximoxi: are these two subjects or two in one, Rid?
Riddle Sideways: not sure, just exploring
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Riddle Sideways: deception of self?
Riddle Sideways: deception of others
Riddle Sideways: wearing avatars
Xirana Oximoxi: I suppose we deceive the ones that were expecting things we are not...
Alfred Kelberry: oh, xiri :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hello boxy:)
Alfred Kelberry: miss paintress :)
Riddle Sideways: and then asking for candy or you'll trick them
Xirana Oximoxi: deception of self can also happen...if you put ourselves goals that maybe we are not able to do... of at least we are not prepared to do
Xs Andree: Or tell ourselves we need certain things to make those goals, and make those things our goals instead.
                      --BELL--
Riddle Sideways: and is that not what we Play with here?
Riddle Sideways: Playing lightly with Being
Riddle Sideways: putting on young (thin) av and costumes
Xs Andree: I don't always play lightly. Sometimes I like to play hard.
Riddle Sideways: playing with Goals of just Being of 9 seconds
Riddle Sideways: play is hard
Riddle Sideways: sometimes we deceive ourselves enough that for 9 seconds we Are ...
Xirana Oximoxi: not sure if I 'follow' you...Rid:)
Riddle Sideways: often, when children Play
Riddle Sideways: there is not a rule book
Xirana Oximoxi: do you feel that during the 9 seconds you can 'be' more?
Xs Andree: Pretense easily becomes practice, practice becomes perfection
Riddle Sideways: just follow the leader/followers/others
Riddle Sideways: well, looking over 4 years of little notes written during those 9 secs
Riddle Sideways: major divide seems either a seeing more and the seeing less
Riddle Sideways: that is not clear either
Riddle Sideways: many times for 15 minutes life is a separate person doing a daily live
Riddle Sideways: then for 9 secs is a g-d-like moment
Riddle Sideways: other times there are fully engaged 15 minutes of the joy of life and a silly 9 secs of why did you interrupt it
Xs Andree: why do i remember that?
Riddle Sideways: which is the deception or the real
Xs Andree: g-d-like moment?
Xirana Oximoxi: I don't know either:)
Xs Andree: I think i have been here before. Riddle, what does g-d-like mean?
Xirana Oximoxi: good day?
Xs Andree: no it means something else.
Xirana Oximoxi: ok:)
Riddle Sideways: god-moment
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Xs Andree: I've been here before.
Xs Andree: why can't i remember it?
Riddle Sideways: we are ONE with ALL
Riddle Sideways: for a moment again
Riddle Sideways: Hi Giles
Alfred Kelberry: mr wolf :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Gilles!
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: scaring Wolf
Gilles Kuhn: hello all, well Allfred as you insisted here i am
Riddle Sideways: dark wolf is hard to see in nighttime
Alfred Kelberry: good. take a sit :)
Xs Andree: Veah nah, welcome back, Gilles.
Gilles Kuhn: thats the idea Riddle but nothing a ctrl shift Y couldnt handle
                      --BELL--
Gilles Kuhn: Vobis Cum Pax Xs
Riddle Sideways: :)
Alfred Kelberry: ah, i remember how alt+f4 joke was a lot of fun back in the day
Gilles Kuhn: so wahts today topic?
Gilles Kuhn: lol Alfred or alt ctrl del ;-)
Riddle Sideways: maybe: costumes and deceptions
Xirana Oximoxi: we talk about 'deception'
Xs Andree: And to you, Gilles.
Riddle Sideways: if only RL had an undo key
Alfred Kelberry: yes, useful feature
Xs Andree: I've found it does.
Gilles Kuhn: sofware recognition software demonstration with a pc running on DOS a guy in the room "format c: ; yes ; yes ;yes "
Xs Andree: eee hee hee hee!
Gilles Kuhn: software voice recognition
Xs Andree: Deltree c:/
Xirana Oximoxi: I must go....take care all...and have fun! :-)
Riddle Sideways: ok Xir
Alfred Kelberry: paint well, xiri :)
Xs Andree waves to Xirana
Gilles Kuhn: bye xi
Riddle Sideways: take a care yourself
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye:)

Gilles Kuhn: so no pheno bashing today Boxy?
Riddle Sideways: boxy, is this picture and branch from fcseek for you to pose at?
Alfred Kelberry: bashing? no, analysis
Alfred Kelberry: what picture?
Gilles Kuhn: ok cutting in it if you prefer
Xs Andree: Riddle, do you know me?
Gilles Kuhn: synthesis = bashing; analysis = to cut in myriads of tiny piece and eating the resulting carpaccio
Riddle Sideways: Alfred/Boxy/pirate, the square thingie by the timies pillow
Riddle Sideways: if you sit will it be a good photo
Alfred Kelberry: oh, it's from fcseeker. it just appeared here one day.
Riddle Sideways: or is it a gift from the long gone Fc
Alfred Kelberry: i haven't seen him for months
Riddle Sideways: a mightly panda doll
Alfred Kelberry: no, my photo is already on the board :)
Riddle Sideways: FcSeeker always told the greatest of stories
Riddle Sideways: and a grand photo it is Alf
Riddle Sideways: well posed
Alfred Kelberry: yes, rather photogenic
Riddle Sideways: is just another deception?
Alfred Kelberry: ha, yes... somewhat :)
Riddle Sideways: we pose and smile and take a photo of who we might not be
Riddle Sideways: taking a deep breath
Riddle Sideways: it is all good
Riddle Sideways: what a great expression

Alfred Kelberry: ah, i have to write up a spec
Alfred Kelberry: i forgot
Riddle Sideways: a spec?
Riddle Sideways: for life?
Riddle Sideways: for deception?
Riddle Sideways: for good?
Riddle Sideways: for play?
Alfred Kelberry: for the export system :)
                      --BELL--
Riddle Sideways: ctrl-

Xs Andree: We say that the world exists still when we aren't looking, and those who insist that it does not seem clearly wrong. Certainly it does, some say
Xs Andree: Yet what it is, is not until it is seen.
Riddle Sideways: that "some say" might be the main part
Alfred Kelberry: that's the concept that little kids employ when playing hide and seek. if i can't see myself, no one can :)
Xs Andree: It is also the result of the Bell Experiment, to Einsein's dismay
Riddle Sideways: and the emperiors new clothes princilple
Alfred Kelberry: bell experiment?
Riddle Sideways: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments
Xs Andree: http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/u...pers/bell.html is a bit simpler and with less technical verbiage
Xs Andree: I came across it in Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos"
Xs Andree: he uses Mulder and Scully from x-files as characters to demonstrate it.
Xs Andree: after this, I gave up a lot of ideas I held close to me as "true"
Xs Andree: as well as many of my ideas on "truth"
Riddle Sideways: making all that high falooting math stuff easier for the common folks
Xs Andree: lol I can't follow the Wiki
Xs Andree: I'm like..huh?
Riddle Sideways: "Ah, Truth, don't get me started" - something Marvin the robot might say
Xs Andree: I <3 Marvin
Riddle Sideways: yep
Riddle Sideways: Cats can explain String therory very well
Riddle Sideways: take a string and drag it across a floor
Xs Andree: someone should feed it thogh, if they aren't going to open the box.
Riddle Sideways: it is a strange attractor to kittens
Riddle Sideways: does the Sroeder's(sp?) cat food get eaten in the box?
Xs Andree: Schroedinger
Riddle Sideways: ty
Xs Andree: I think that observers do not need to be thinking
Riddle Sideways: seem silly to think that Observer is not part of the experiment
                      --BELL--
Xs Andree: so the geiger counter counts as an observer, as it is in the box, the cat is most definitely alive or dead before it is opened.
Xs Andree nods nods!
Riddle Sideways: wb Giles

Gilles Kuhn: the idea is that you cannot determine the aliveness of the cat before opening the box what is inside the box is unreachable
Gilles Kuhn: and that mean a quantum effect on the macroscopic world
Xs Andree: The idea is not what you can determine, but that the cat is neither alive nor dead until it is observed. Opening the box is the observation, and until you do, the cat actually has no state.
Gilles Kuhn: precisely and so its about the determination in classical physic all is determinable
Xs Andree: It is the state of the cat that is the paradox, before it is determined.
Xs Andree: almost all
Gilles Kuhn: yes so the problem is the determination you cannot determine the state of the cat before opening the box and even then you cannot know when the cat died if he died
Xs Andree: Quantum events can conspire to make such things clearly seen on the classical level, especially as heat approaches 0, and the change of entropy approaches a constant.
Xs Andree: Einstien Bose Condensate and near absolute 0 conditions create quantum effects in laboratory experiments. REpeatable, validatable, observable.
Gilles Kuhn: well o kelvin is difficult to obtain if not impossible think of background radiation etc (even the big bang one....) , and bose condensate indeed but you dont need to go to such lenght to have observable quantum event a good old two slit experiment do perfectly the trick
Xs Andree: To say "we can't determine the state until we see it" is different from saying "The state is not until it is observed"
Gilles Kuhn: it is different but only in a philosophical way as you cannot tell empirically one interpretation of the other

Xs Andree: however the two slit experiment is far more arguable than cohesive matter
Xs Andree: cohesive matter is pretty hard to argue as a mistake in reasoning.
Gilles Kuhn: i dont think so to see particle expressing themselves as wave is quite impressive
Xs Andree: The Two slit experiment was easier to argue against.
Xs Andree: it is.
Gilles Kuhn: right let do the experience how would you argue against the two slits?
Xs Andree: especially if you scramble the information after obtaining it, and after the light splits and is determined...once the information becomes unknown, light "becomes" a wave again
Xs Andree: Time at C is undefined
Gilles Kuhn: not for photons because they have no mass
Xs Andree: therefore saying "we measured after the slit" or "we measured at the slit" means nothing to light.
Xs Andree: it doesn't travel at all
Xs Andree: it can't, it has no time.
Gilles Kuhn: not the point the fact is that you need to measure after the slits to demonstrate a quantum effect and you can have it if you send photons particle by particle in a discreet way
Xs Andree: Relativity explains it easily enough.
Xs Andree: Light has no time
Gilles Kuhn: Xs photons do travel their peculiarity is that they only travel at c due to ahving no mass
Xs Andree: through what?
Xs Andree: Time at C is undefined
Gilles Kuhn: and time is only measured in a frame of reference so you can ascribe to photon time due to their changing position in a frame of reference
Xs Andree: and C has no inertial frame
Gilles Kuhn: c has nothing to do with it in the case of masseless particle
Xs Andree: it is outside the boundary described.
Xs Andree: Okay, then...let us not worry about that, if we can't agree
Xs Andree: I have another question.
Xs Andree: If we know the value of C, and that it is a constant...
Xs Andree: then we know absolutely the speed of any photon in a vaccum.
Gilles Kuhn: look if you know form where a photon is emitted you can first ascribe a time 0 which is the creation of it then you can detect the photon using the same spatio temporal reference later in another place wich permit you to ascribe inside heisenberg limitations a place and time at the measurement for the photon
Xs Andree: ...but cannot know its position
                      --BELL--
Gilles Kuhn: yes you can know its position but under planck constant heisenberg uncertainty constrain
Xs Andree: you are forgetting lorentz Contraction from the reference of the traveller.
Gilles Kuhn: let it be easy if i look at the sun basically i see photons emitted by the sun ok
Xs Andree: what happens to observed space to those travelling in a spaceship close to C?
Gilles Kuhn: then i know where and how far the sun is
Gilles Kuhn: so as i know c i can say the photon left the sun more or less 8 minute ago
Xs Andree: along the travel of axis....
Gilles Kuhn: so in my reference i have ascribed a time to photons
Xs Andree: Lorentz contraction. I know you know this.
Xs Andree: you have to..what happens?
Gilles Kuhn: lorentz contration dont play for masseless particle
Xs Andree: I'm talking about space as observed from those within the ship
Gilles Kuhn: which btw are not only maseless but are punctual
Gilles Kuhn: let be simple take my photon from the sun
Gilles Kuhn: we know roughly the sun position we know c so we know roughly when the photon that hit my eyes departed

Xs Andree: well, we aren't having the same conversation anymore.
Gilles Kuhn: (departed = was created)
Gilles Kuhn: quite convenient indeed....
Xs Andree: hardly
Gilles Kuhn: indeed sorry but you cannot tell that you cannot ascribe a time to photons iif you use a defined spatio temporal referent
Xs Andree: the sun position is not even close to known, for one, not on the same scale. My position is not one place in spacetime. My right arm is in one place, my left in another.
Xs Andree: how much more the sun?
Xs Andree: what is THE position of the sun? which point is it in?
Gilles Kuhn: i never told the measure is precise its under heisenberg constrain we know that
Xs Andree: but the measure of C is exact
Gilles Kuhn: right dont take tehe sun take a lazer emitter
Xs Andree: it is known, exactly, no matter who is looking at it.
Gilles Kuhn: put it in a geosynchrone satellite we know by gravity law where exactly it is
Xs Andree: you can't know exactly where the laser is either. You know that.
Gilles Kuhn: then when you observe p a photon from the lazer you know perfectly for your spatio temporal frame of reference when it was emitted
Xs Andree: if it has volume its location is not precise
Gilles Kuhn: yes no measure is perfect we kow that
Gilles Kuhn: know*
Xs Andree: I can't believe you just said that. not without first saying that you were going to completely depart from reason.
Gilles Kuhn: but you can ascribe a time + or minus the value of imprecision
Gilles Kuhn: and btw its the case for all values and measurements
Xs Andree: so what is the +- for C?
Xs Andree: what is the variance?
Gilles Kuhn: c is a theoretical value has we know c in a vacuum show me a perfect vacuum in nature please....

Xs Andree: Ah, this is the problem between us.
Xs Andree: Thank you. Giles.
Gilles Kuhn: betweenss US? i was speaking of physics
Xs Andree: I know.
Gilles Kuhn: that has nothing to do with a problem between people those are theoretical problems that are interesting to discuss
Xs Andree: however our conversations are not likely to ever meet.
Gilles Kuhn: i dont understand why you subjectivize that its totally irrelevant
Xs Andree: its okay. I do

Gilles Kuhn: why? and what is the interest in a theoretical discussion?
Xs Andree: You were talking about physics, I was exploring us.
Xs Andree: why we can't seem to ever agree.
Gilles Kuhn: so you mocked me and didnt take the conversation seriously again its unethical and perfectly rude
Xs Andree: No, I simply understood it suddenly.
Gilles Kuhn: and you dont explore anything but your fantasm i have to say
Xs Andree: The conversation was very serious for me.
Gilles Kuhn: yes to have a guinea pig for your little pseudo psychological game
Xs Andree: you are placing intent where there is none.
                      --BELL--
Xs Andree: I have wondered since yesterday why i get so upset and frustrated speaking with you.
Xs Andree: Even when I try to meet with you, I just can't.
Gilles Kuhn: because you have not the habit to be contradicted in your fundamental beliefs
Xs Andree: But it didn't seem deliberate on your part so I kept trying.
Xs Andree: untrue.
Gilles Kuhn: what mena "meet with you" ? because if thazt mean agreeing then you need to understand that meeting someone is really accepting differences real deep ones
Xs Andree: that doesn't mean I'll ever understand them.
Gilles Kuhn: not necessarily but understnading is not accepting
Xs Andree: maybe we will, but..for now, I can accept that we won't agree on anything.
Xs Andree: okay, that I do agree with.
Gilles Kuhn: sorry but the "on anything " close is absurd
Xs Andree: and you can accept without understanding.
Gilles Kuhn: indeed but i do not

Gilles Kuhn: 1+1=2 in peano axiomatic ok?
Xs Andree: well, until I see proof otherwise, I'll siimply enjoy our conflict.
Alfred Kelberry: wait, you guys are still here? :)
Xs Andree: I'm going to have to look that up. I have no idea what peano axiomatic is.
Gilles Kuhn: i just proofed you that or do you pretend 1+1=3?
Riddle Sideways: were you not here, Boxy
Gilles Kuhn: oh basic arythmetic of natural number
Xs Andree: 1+1 is not always two
Gilles Kuhn: in that axiomatic yes
Xs Andree: okay, peano axiomatic, 1+1=2
Gilles Kuhn: ok

Alfred Kelberry: usually, when i come back from a prolonged idle, everyone is gone :)
Xs Andree: NINJA!

Gilles Kuhn: and yes in all rigor i had to state s(0)+s(0)= ss(0)
Riddle Sideways: sorry, you missed the BEST discussions
Xs Andree: i got you to agree by arguing with you.
Xs Andree: and you argued back
Xs Andree: we agree to argue
Riddle Sideways: that works
Alfred Kelberry: riddle, the best discussion is always... now! :)
Xs Andree: and found something to agree on. We CAN agree on something, finally.
Gilles Kuhn: in the secundary argument
Gilles Kuhn: that was my point
Riddle Sideways: yes
Gilles Kuhn: and i hate a chat lag that inverse my sentences i dont speak in reverse polish
Riddle Sideways: quiet Boxy, we are the observers
Gilles Kuhn: (reverse polish notation)
Xs Andree: Well, Giles, I hope you can agree with me...that i don't say the things i do to manipulate or offend you or call you names.
Alfred Kelberry: xs/gilles: i think the correct term is "we agree to disagree" :)
Gilles Kuhn: who speak of name calling?
Xs Andree: I'm not saying anything about you, i'm saying this about me.
Gilles Kuhn: and actually i dont care as what interested me was the chat about physics too bad pema or kos were not here

Alfred Kelberry: oh, how is kos, btw?
Xs Andree: I think so as well.
Riddle Sideways: they'll read this. in the wiki
Gilles Kuhn: the owl an astrophysicist from the Institut d'astrophysique de Paris
Alfred Kelberry: is he still doing research or retired?
Gilles Kuhn: still doing
Alfred Kelberry: impressive at his age
Gilles Kuhn: he's finishing a paper he will pressent it first in virtual university
Alfred Kelberry: wow
Alfred Kelberry: cool
Alfred Kelberry: what topic?
Gilles Kuhn: its about dynamic of a galaxy cluster
Alfred Kelberry: when is it?
Alfred Kelberry: i'd like to attend and poke him on dark matter
Gilles Kuhn: still not determined after its accepted in a peer reviewed publication
Gilles Kuhn: i already poked him on that
Alfred Kelberry: ah, next year then
Gilles Kuhn: lol no will be quicker
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: poked? what did he say?
Alfred Kelberry: when this embarrassment of the dark matter will be over?
Gilles Kuhn: i told him look its a bit extreme to say that we know only 4% of the mass of the universe and nothing at all about the 96% remaining
Alfred Kelberry: exaclty
Gilles Kuhn: and that only due to gravitationnal and cosmological models
Xs Andree: most of it is dark energy, not dark matter
Gilles Kuhn: whatever they have not any idea what it is
Xs Andree: we might soon, I hope.
                      --BELL--
Gilles Kuhn: so to save our actual theories we prefer to postulate 96 % of the mass in kryptonite...
Xs Andree snickers
Alfred Kelberry: gilles, matter due to gravitational requirements, energy due to accelerated expansion
Xs Andree: Can I ask something?
Alfred Kelberry: in any case - an embarrassment, i think
Gilles Kuhn: yes yes as say popper all theoris can be saved if you use enough ad hoc supplemental hypothesis
Alfred Kelberry: xs, please

Xs Andree: Currently the expansion of the universe isn't enough to counteract the gravity between objects held gravitationally close enough together
Xs Andree: like between me and the keyboard
Xs Andree: will that actually increase enough to do so later?
Alfred Kelberry: gilles, you heard of that crazy jew in israel with the theory of variable gravitation? i'd love for him to come out right :)
Gilles Kuhn: yes and so einstein introduced hios infamous cosmological constant
Gilles Kuhn: i didnt heard that but apparently gravitation is a jewish preserve ;-)
Xs Andree: well...actually, he introduced the constant before the discovery
Gilles Kuhn: true xs and dropped it
Xs Andree: right...so..the constant can become so great that they can overcome local gravity?
Xs Andree: or I should ask, is there an indication that it will?
Gilles Kuhn: a constant is by definition not becoming it is
Gilles Kuhn: but dark energy dont need to be constant so....
Xs Andree: but it isn't a constant
Gilles Kuhn: anyway we as often in cosmology are on the bounder between science and metaphysics
Xs Andree: Eienstein assumed it was, hubble observed it was not
Gilles Kuhn: yes actually the problem is that we cannot make sense of our observation at large scale with GR

Xs Andree: So, I can't find the answer because we don't know yet.
Gilles Kuhn: nice simple big bang model from lemaitre seems too simple.... you need to had inflations etc
Gilles Kuhn: we have in fact no bloody idea
Xs Andree: damnit
Xs Andree: okay, so..if it is not constant, and every particle winds up isolated and alone...
Gilles Kuhn: particle of exotic matter you mean you know the minority 4% we are composed of......
Xs Andree: what happens to their probabilities with no other interactions to influence them?
Gilles Kuhn: metaphysic question as there will be no observer to see it
Xs Andree: so...it can become anything and nothing
Gilles Kuhn: too if their is no interaction there by definition cannot be observation
Xs Andree: free of observation
Alfred Kelberry: gilles, you say the concept that everything known in existence once was confined in an infinite singularity is simple? :)
Alfred Kelberry: i say it's no better than flat earth :)
Gilles Kuhn: yes Parmenid said that just he say it was still the case
Xs Andree grins

Xs Andree: you know Parmeenides
Gilles Kuhn: not personnaly sadly i was in Scandinavia when he lived
Xs Andree: ooh! 11:11
Alfred Kelberry: picking berries and hunting elks
Alfred Kelberry: what a life
Gilles Kuhn: they did already a decent hydromel;-)
Alfred Kelberry: well, that's a relief :)
Alfred Kelberry: what was life expectancy back then?
Gilles Kuhn: depended of social class as always
                      --BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: royalties can be discarded as insignificant discrepancy :)
Alfred Kelberry: hence, an average for a male object is about 30, i think
Gilles Kuhn: well royalties are statistically artifacts too much assasination etc....
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i'd like to live about 200 years
Xs Andree: I want to be alive to see Andromeda swallowing the night sky
Alfred Kelberry: i hope we'll learn how to reenact proper cell propagation soon enough
Alfred Kelberry: xs, neat
Xs Andree: me too
Xs Andree: And I hope it does not become the arbitrary domain of the wealthy

Gilles Kuhn: i want to be alive to see the last descendant of my last enemy falling under my sword..... ooooops sorry still in scandinavian mode ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: except, the earth will more likely be smashed by an asteroid until then

Xs Andree: What if your enemy turns out to be you?
Gilles Kuhn: difficult as i dont consider me as an enemy by definition
Xs Andree: NOT if we pull our heads out of our collective asses and realize all this fighting with one another is gonna get us pelted by something a lot more dangerous than each other
Alfred Kelberry: *switches gilles into the graceful versailles mode*
Xs Andree: But as Parm, all are one, therefore your enemy is not seperate from you
Gilles Kuhn: bah about asteroids i am sure you russian have still enough Tsaryna bombs to pulverize them to dust ;-)
Xs Andree: I'm more worried about faster speeding comets
Alfred Kelberry: gilles, unless the shuttle breaks apart on the asteroid entry :)
Xs Andree: and...that the last two near miss objects weren't seen until after they passed...
Xs Andree: cause we have all our damn sattelites pointed the WRONG way
Gilles Kuhn: i never told i accepted parmenids theories you know
Xs Andree: which is why I asked "what if your enemy turns out to be you"
Xs Andree: instead of assuming you'd agree that he was.

Alfred Kelberry: it'd be cool to die from a comet or asteroid
Xs Andree: and ironic
Gilles Kuhn: and actually he didnt say all was one he say that all was the being as non being was unthinkable and so that all being the being the thinking and the being are the same and i presume he had received some exemplar of the vedas and read them drinking wines when writing his poem
Alfred Kelberry: not as cool as during an orgasm in bed with a hot smart woman
Alfred Kelberry: but still
Alfred Kelberry: gilles, was he also the first proponent of pheno? :)
Gilles Kuhn: i often asked you where do you find those boxy i often find hot but always idiotic and few smart but ranging from frigid to whale class
Xs Andree: What is "pheno" by the way?
Alfred Kelberry: phenomenology
Alfred Kelberry: foundation of pab initiative
Gilles Kuhn: yes piet hobby
Gilles Kuhn: no alfred in fact he was the first logician and epistemologist those who ascribe metaphysic to him are idiots
Xs Andree: right, a friend of mine was talking about it last month, something about the difference between phenomenon and anomenon
Gilles Kuhn: huh?
Gilles Kuhn: anomenon?
Xs Andree: you haven't heard of it either then
Gilles Kuhn: LOL
Xs Andree: your guess is as good as mine, i guess i'll have to keep looking
Gilles Kuhn: i read husserl merleau ponty levinas and heidegger
Gilles Kuhn: but anomenon i never heard of it or i have an acute alzenheimer fit...
                      --BELL--
Xs Andree: maybe I'm remembering the word wrong. it was explained as the opposite of phenomenon, and that phenomenon implied unlikely happenings, while the other implied likely ones
Alfred Kelberry: mr wolf, give us a definition
Gilles Kuhn: phenomenon is just what you perceive by your sense
Gilles Kuhn: anomenon well even googling it dont give anything but pseudos and proper names

Gilles Kuhn: you mean perhaps noumenon?
Gilles Kuhn: but then its not about phenomenology but kantism
Xs Andree: yah, my bad,just found it
Gilles Kuhn: which i deem way more interesting
Xs Andree: one is observable, the other isn't.
Xs Andree: yeah i should have googled the word i knew first
Gilles Kuhn: ok noumenon is well the postulated origin of the pure intuition (i e the sensation reaching your perceptual aparatus before any nervous treatment)
Xs Andree: just thought of it
Gilles Kuhn: and so indeed by definition the noumenon is unknowable as you will only perceive phenomenon
Xs Andree: That is why he was talking about it.
Gilles Kuhn: but thats epistemology and kantian one phenomenology altough based in part on these definition is a different methodology that failed btw
Xs Andree: We were talking about observed reality, and i mentioned that we had no gaurantee that what we observe even reflects what is.
Alfred Kelberry: gilles, do you find epoche synonymous to enlightenment?
Gilles Kuhn: i never speak of reality only of perception and of models permittting to make sense of them and to modify them (which are technological models)
Gilles Kuhn: as much as i find lobotomy able to make someone clever.....
Xs Andree grins
Xs Andree: Thank you, Allfred
Alfred Kelberry: what for?
Xs Andree: Just being
Alfred Kelberry: oh :)
Xs Andree: holy hell it's getting late.
Xs Andree: I has stuffs to do, guys, talk to you later. Ta. Thank you again, Gilles, Allfred, Riddle!
Gilles Kuhn: bye xs
Alfred Kelberry: be well :)
Xs Andree waves and poofs
Riddle Sideways: bye Xs, hi Rasima
                      --BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: hi, ras
Rasima Petrovic: Hello there =)
Riddle Sideways: can't remember if we've met
Rasima Petrovic: well, we met now! =)
Riddle Sideways: think that somebody of your name has been at PaB before
Rasima Petrovic: I'm the only rasima I think
Rasima Petrovic: but I've been here before =)
Rasima Petrovic: what's the topic?
Alfred Kelberry: that's a lovely change to the furry scene here :)
Alfred Kelberry: anything
Riddle Sideways: well, it started about deception
Alfred Kelberry: oh, the official one is deception
Riddle Sideways: been mostly physics, phenomology, theorical, etc.
Rasima Petrovic: ah okay
Riddle Sideways: principle of 2 scientist in the room = 3 differing theorys
Riddle Sideways: think it started with not knowing if the cat in the box is dead or alive and if you should feed it?
Alfred Kelberry: i think the big wolfy cat has fallen asleep
Gilles Kuhn raise ear at the word cat.....
Xirana Oximoxi: hi :)
Gilles Kuhn: GRRRRRRRRRRR
Xirana Oximoxi: still here!! wowow...I'll have to read the discussion!! :)
Riddle Sideways: wb Xir
Riddle Sideways: yeah, having the cat explain String Theory as something to chase
Alfred Kelberry: xiri!
Riddle Sideways: thank you so much folks, but need to go
Gilles Kuhn: bye riddle
Alfred Kelberry: thank you, riddle
Alfred Kelberry: be well
Riddle Sideways: buy
Alfred Kelberry: was it freudian? :)
Gilles Kuhn: huh ? please tackling pheno can be at least fun but mercy no psychoanalysis
Alfred Kelberry: bye vs buy
Gilles Kuhn: he work on stock exchange?
Alfred Kelberry: he, like you and me, is a product of the free market
Gilles Kuhn: it would be free when you have full liberty of moving for the work force
                      --BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: ah, these pure anarchistic creatures :)
Alfred Kelberry: can't grasp the sense of capital :)
Gilles Kuhn: oh thats only marking a normal consequences o liberalism
Gilles Kuhn: of*
Alfred Kelberry: will you make it next week?
Gilles Kuhn: i really dont know
Alfred Kelberry: i think bleu will be joining us soon
Gilles Kuhn: well i will leave soon i need to rl eat you know
Gilles Kuhn: ok boxy dont do anything amoral to bleu ;-)
Gilles Kuhn: see you later bye
Alfred Kelberry: oh, rl eat is a fine idea