The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Zen Arado: Hi Xs :)
Zen Arado: region is restarting ..going to Kira cafe
Xs Andree: kk

We moved to Kira Cafe:

Zen (zen.arado): you have been to meetings at pab before?
Xs Andree: /me nods
Zen (zen.arado): so ok that you are recorded?
Xs Andree: Yes, not sure why the recorder was going off. I tried restarting and joining the group and putting the tag on, but nothing helped
Zen (zen.arado): it only allows guardians to record I think
Xs Andree: It was spamming that the key it got was invalid and that i wouldn't be recorded. I didn't touch it or try to do anything with it, it started when I arrived.
Zen (zen.arado): oh?
Xs Andree: Why my key was invalid but it could retreive my name was wierd, but I'm not sure how it was scripted
Xs Andree: /me nods
Zen (zen.arado): me neither
Xs Andree: I'm not worried, at least it isn't spamming the channel.
Zen (zen.arado): but think it is set to record only for guardians
Zen (zen.arado): as soon as I left recording stopped
Xs Andree: ah, kk
Zen (zen.arado): a man is working on my central heating
Zen (zen.arado): so getting interruptions ;)
Zen (zen.arado): you are an SL old timer from your profile :)
Xs Andree: /me nod nod
Zen (zen.arado): spend much time in here?
Xs Andree: I did for about four years, then I was gone for two, just got back a week or so agi
Xs Andree: ago
Zen (zen.arado): you got disenchanted with it?
Zen (zen.arado): sometimes I do
Zen (zen.arado): think I spend too much time in SL
Xs Andree: not so much, disenchantment is....
Xs Andree: interesting enough to stick around for.
Xs Andree: I just didn't have the time to devote to it
Zen (zen.arado): it can divert us from ...'real' life
Xs Andree: I thought it was messing my my relationship
Zen (zen.arado): yes that too
Xs Andree: truth of the matter was, my relationship was just messed up
Zen (zen.arado): a RL relationship?
Xs Andree: /me nods
Xs Andree: my marriage.
Zen (zen.arado): better not say too much personal stuff here
Zen (zen.arado): but SL does mess up relationships sometimes
Xs Andree: Not really personal.
Xs Andree: oh, it didn't.
Zen (zen.arado): I knew a guy got married to a woman in here and it gave problems with hus RL marriage
Zen (zen.arado): though people who don't know about SL can be suspicious
Zen (zen.arado): maybe with good reason
Xs Andree: I don't get into relationships where suspicion has any place anymore.
Zen (zen.arado): it's hard to know in advance how it will pan out though?
Zen (zen.arado): romantic love can be so blind
Xs Andree: I don't get into relationships where suspicion is a problem.
Zen (zen.arado): brb sec
Xs Andree: If I'm not free and he isn't free, I don't get into it.
Xs Andree: kk
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Bruce:)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello Zen, Xs
Xs Andree: Good Morning, Xirana
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): good morning:)
Zen (zen.arado): back
Zen (zen.arado): sorry...man fixing my central heating
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ahhh :) I was wondering... :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Xirana, Bruce
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): very important when the winter is coming:)
Zen (zen.arado): yes...just a service
Xs Andree: oh, lol Bruce is outside, I was wondering where he was
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes! stuck outside:)
Zen (zen.arado): is anyone totally free?
Zen (zen.arado): sorry I'm philosophical
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): well.... I am not:)

Friendships:

Zen (zen.arado): I have such a mix of friends
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): and I think it is very difficult to be totally free:)
Zen (zen.arado): I wonder how deep SL friendships are
Zen (zen.arado): Hi San
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ahh good question:)
Xs Andree: hardly fair trying to play socrates with me if you are going to wander outside the topic. So far as jealousy issues are concerned, I am not jealous by nature, and i don't get involved with jealous men
San (santoshima): see ya!
Zen (zen.arado): better than Facebook friends?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I suppose you can have all levels of friends...like in rl..it depends of a lot of factors
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello San!
San (santoshima): hello Xir, Zen, Xs
Zen (zen.arado): as long as the friendship is rewarding does it matter?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): if it is rewarding it does not matter.)
Zen (zen.arado): we can have friends at different levels
Zen (zen.arado): I mean
San (santoshima): agreed, Zen
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): if we look for the meaning of 'to be friend'...maybe I am wrong...
Zen (zen.arado): if I enjoy friendship with someone in SL that is still good
Xs Andree: lol I'm lost now
Zen (zen.arado): even if they can't come and see me in hospital
San (santoshima): you can't be far from yourself, do't worry
San (santoshima): n
San (santoshima): { be happy, as the saying goes }
San (santoshima): are you in the hospital, Zen?
Zen (zen.arado): I was thinking more of the difference between RL and SL friendships
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): you can have 'friends' and the other persons are people with whom you meet, enjoy, chat... but maybe not 'friends'
Zen (zen.arado): no San
Xs Andree: I'm lost in the conversation. I'm not sure what we are talking about.
San (santoshima): ah
Zen (zen.arado): we are talking about the different levels of friendships in SL and RL I think Xs
San (santoshima): thank you
Xs Andree: Oh. I don't think there is a difference.
Xs Andree: at least not between sl and rl
Korel Laloix: When I met a few people that I new in SL at the SL convention, it was strange how the relationships translated to RL.
Zen (zen.arado): it's a long way to come and see me in hospital from Vancouver San :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes, I agree...the differences are not related to sl /rl
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Korel, Eliza
San (santoshima): right, Xs ~ i believe Zen is meaning different levels in whatever way of meeting
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello Eliza:)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi folks
Korel Laloix: /me smiles
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Korel!
Xs Andree: I think maybe our conversation before everyone arrived is what is confusing me.
San (santoshima): yes, a long way, Zen ~ but I'd try to visit you online and in thoughts
San (santoshima): and feelings generated
Zen (zen.arado): is that as good I wonder?
San (santoshima): yes
Zen (zen.arado): still good though
San (santoshima): without a doubt (to me)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes, absolutly
San (santoshima): it's like tonglen, prayer, or however you frame that
Zen (zen.arado): and you would miss me if I left SL?
Xs Andree: But, I would say at the moment, my closest friend is in RL. I haven't ever been willing to call someone my "best"friend until I met them
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): of course!!!!! :)))
San (santoshima): I would miss meeting you Zen, and remember your kindness and words
Zen (zen.arado): hey that's this weeks topic
Zen (zen.arado): absence

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): absence:)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes....one of the topics:)
Zen (zen.arado): I have that feeling about romantic relatrionships Xs
Zen (zen.arado): maybe I need to change
Zen (zen.arado): maybe they can be as valid if only in SL?
Zen (zen.arado): though only platonic hmmm
Xs Andree: I don't think validity comes in levels.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): in my view...if you feel happy with this relation, why not?
Zen (zen.arado): good point Xs
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): even if only sl
Xs Andree: and Romance can be had apart from physical contact as well.
Xs Andree: or even sexual fantasy
San (santoshima): indeed
San (santoshima): and especially
Zen (zen.arado): but I still want to meet the person in RL
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes! I understand it perfectly! :)
Zen (zen.arado): so there is an absence there somehow
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): sometimes think it is harder to stay connected when seeing someone a lot
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): falling into routines
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I notice this with the kids... have to wake myself and remember to check in fresh, a lot
Korel Laloix: I can see that.
Zen (zen.arado): take them for granted?
Zen (zen.arado): maybe I take you guys for granted
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): not necessarily... still much love and appreciation but as far as knowing where they are at..
Xs Andree: There is always an absence in plurality, but none in unity.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): changes
Zen (zen.arado): could you say more Xs?

Plurality:

Xs Andree: Plurality is the philosophy that things are separate from one another. that you are you, I am me, this chair I'm sitting on is neither of us, that the universe is made of seperate distinct parts
Zen (zen.arado): ah yes
Xs Andree: Unity, as taught by Zeno and Parminades is the idea that all things are one whole, and that we are not separate from one another.
Xs Andree: and that time and space are illusions
Zen (zen.arado): you just hit on my own nonduality perspective Xs :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
Zen (zen.arado): but I bore people with it all the time :)
Xs Andree: One of my favorite quotes came off a physics forum. They were talking about the nature of time and space, and one person replied "Time and space are holograms arising from the quantum state"
Zen (zen.arado): sounds good
San (santoshima): luminous
San (santoshima): please excuse me, gotta get to work ...} thanks for the chat ... interesting
San (santoshima): bye
Xs Andree: At the most basic level, time and space have no meaning.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye San
Zen (zen.arado): kk byee San
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye San
Xs Andree: Have a good day, San
Korel Laloix: ciao
San (santoshima): thanks, you too
Second Life: San (santoshima) is offline.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): this is what people believe that think of worlds as simulations - of which SL would be a kind of random model
Zen (zen.arado): I tend to think they are human constructions

Simulations:

Zen (zen.arado): we are a simulation?
Zen (zen.arado): needs someone running it?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): projections ...and not necessarily
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): in a hologram the whole is reflected in every part
Zen (zen.arado): I worked on a training simulator for years
Xs Andree: /me nods
Zen (zen.arado): a control panel that simulated a power station control panel
Xs Andree: If you have an expired credit card, cut the hologram print in half
Xs Andree: and you'll get two pictures of the same, instead of two half pictures
Zen (zen.arado): I was operating a virtual reality 30 years ago :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): exactly
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): wow:)
Zen (zen.arado): must try that
Xs Andree: me too, I don't have any credit cards. :D
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): people simulate all the time... in rituals for instance (this is my big kick lately - value of rituals even without a foxed belief system)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): fixed*
Xs Andree: and I never have any change when I go by a holographic sticker vending machine
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me giggles at typo... too much politics :P
Zen (zen.arado): likes foxed :)
Zen (zen.arado): that's what happened to my belief systems :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hahha
Zen (zen.arado): simulate means pretend right?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): enact
Xs Andree: Speaking of simulations, they say that if you wanted to construct a simulation of the universe that was accurate...it would have to have as many elements as the universe itself, and be at least as large.
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bmaybe better 'imitation
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes, mirror.. true
Xs Andree: I try to remember that I'm not that big, and that anything i think is true, is necessarily false.
Xs Andree: but it doesn't have to be true...just close enough to work.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): supposedly, our whole universe didn't really need much matter ...
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I must go now...take care all...and see you soon! :)
Zen (zen.arado): I remember a Simulation Theory in philosophy
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye Xiri nice to see you
Zen (zen.arado): Daniel Dennett I think
Zen (zen.arado): byee Xirana
Zen (zen.arado): ty for coming
Xs Andree: Most of it is nothingness, empty space.
Xs Andree: /me waves waves
Xs Andree: even within matter
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I have to be careful because I jumble my learnings - so many ideas and each have their shortcomings
Zen (zen.arado): yes we are all mostly empty space
Xs Andree: /me nods nos to Eliza
Zen (zen.arado): me too Eliza
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): maybe that's the safety mechanism that keeps us open
Zen (zen.arado): but you often see them coming tigether in interesting ways
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes!
Zen (zen.arado): I am intrigued by the idea that there are no boundaries
Zen (zen.arado): just mental ones we make for ourselves
Xs Andree: I miss the silence bell
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles
Xs Andree: it's absent here.
Zen (zen.arado): our minds are so good at separating things into objects and categories
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): we can have a sliencde at 8 am if you want
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): sometimes I think of Pema's analogy of the engine that runs on no fuel... engaging in categorizations and appreciate objects endlessly without taking onbaggage
Xs Andree: I am not familiar with that, and I'd like that at 8, Zen, that would be nice.
Zen (zen.arado): that's a good one Eliza
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that the universe and expansion seems that way - everything as simply furthering endless opening
Zen (zen.arado): ok stop for a couple of mins then

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): pausing would be nice - okay ::sits on hands:::

Zen (zen.arado): ok
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ty Zen
Zen (zen.arado): I don't get the engine that runs on no fuel bit though
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well like freedom precision in the way I'm using it...
Zen (zen.arado): but agree with second part
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but linking to Pema's analogy... re your limitationlessness "thus bodhisattvas..., etc" heart sutra?
Zen (zen.arado): great word
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I have to go though, sorry to rush off and lovely to see you again Xs (bye Korel too if here/when back)
Xs Andree: me smiles
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Thank you for hosting so nicely Zen
Zen (zen.arado): kk byee Eliza ty for coming
Xs Andree: You too. I look forward to seeing you again
Xs Andree: You've given me a lot to think about
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): <3
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you too
Zen (zen.arado): or maybe we need less to think about
Xs Andree: are we restarting here?
Xs Andree: or are those old notices?
Zen (zen.arado): no the pavilion area is
Xs Andree: ah, kk
Zen (zen.arado): happens every Wed on my session
Zen (zen.arado): not every week but most
Xs Andree: lol, okay, that is why I didn't see a notice when you mentioned it.
Zen (zen.arado): sometimes we go back to the pavilion
Xs Andree: antici...
Xs Andree: ...patience
Zen (zen.arado): we don't get the recording or be;l notices here
Zen (zen.arado): I have to pull the chat log from my hard drive too
Xs Andree: It is interesting how whenever we try to pull back to the topic of absence, it fills with new topics
Xs Andree: some say that it is a paradox for something to come out of nothing
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat...
Korel Laloix: Take care.
Zen (zen.arado): we make a vacuum for stuff to rush into :)
Xs Andree: /me nods
Zen (zen.arado): byee Kori ty for coming
Xs Andree: or out of.
Xs Andree: /me hugs Kori
Xs Andree: Good luck with your costume. Send me a pic or tp me when you have it done
Zen (zen.arado): I was reading alan Watts

Polarities:

Zen (zen.arado): about how we need both polarities
Xs Andree: glah, missed her
Zen (zen.arado): can't have absence without presence
Zen (zen.arado): we can't have good without bad
Zen (zen.arado): strange one that when you think about it
Zen (zen.arado): we think we need to eliminate all the bad
Zen (zen.arado): but not possible?
Xs Andree: not really. Opposites in western thought are exclusive, but that is just western philosophy
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Xs Andree: opposites that cannot exist apart from one another cannot be true opposites
Zen (zen.arado): we make the conceptual distinctions
Second Life: TwoEagles Swansong is online.
Xs Andree: /me nods
Xs Andree: It must be night and day at once
Xs Andree: a coin must have two faces
Zen (zen.arado): hard for our brains to get around this
Xs Andree: I'm surprised at you. :P
Xs Andree: The answer is in your name.
Zen (zen.arado): we are so immersed in our concepts
Zen (zen.arado): Zen?
Xs Andree: The Yin and the Yang appear as opposites, however they are parts of the whole Tao. Together they are one.
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Xs Andree: so these opposties are not separate from one another, the coin is whole, and across the whole world, it must be both night and day at once.
Zen (zen.arado): language creates the separations
Zen (zen.arado): or thinking in survivla mode
Zen (zen.arado): survival
Xs Andree: sometimes it is important to know which side you are dealing with.
Xs Andree: /me nods
Xs Andree: some opposites though are just a matter of perspective
Xs Andree: Cold is only relative to our comfort. In physics there is no "cold" only varying degrees of heat
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Xs Andree: Past and future rely only upon which side of our present they lie
Zen (zen.arado): just useful ways of expressing things
Xs Andree: every moment is the present
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): past and future don't exist really
Xs Andree: well yeah...did something already happen, or is it about to happen...is the meeting over, or is it about to start?
Zen (zen.arado): only in my mind
Zen (zen.arado): there is only here and now
Xs Andree: hmm?
Zen (zen.arado): even that is a concept too :)
Zen (zen.arado): anything we say is just words and concepts
Zen (zen.arado): not reality
Zen (zen.arado): just descriptions
Xs Andree: The name is not the thing
Xs Andree: Kaballah
Zen (zen.arado): 'that which can be named is not it' Tao
Xs Andree: /me nods
Zen (zen.arado): or something like that :)
Xs Andree: And God gave to man the power to name all things
Xs Andree: Genesis
Zen (zen.arado): yeh it's useful
Xs Andree: very much so, or we wouldn't have Tao
Zen (zen.arado): but then we trap ourselves in the concepts
Xs Andree: We are freed by them as well.
Zen (zen.arado): we freeze them
Zen (zen.arado): how freed?
Xs Andree: :D The blesphemy of the frozen moment, the cutting of the instant
Zen (zen.arado): ah they can be pointers?
Xs Andree: Zeno's arrow
Xs Andree: Well...
Xs Andree: We can certainly hold a meeting with no words or symbols
Xs Andree: in chat
Xs Andree: but it is words and symbols flowing across digital lines right now that let us be here the way we are.
Xs Andree: otherwise, we'd have to use some other way to do so
Xs Andree: And while anyone can dl the client and get online and talk to someone halfway across the world
Zen (zen.arado): yes...communication
Xs Andree: not everyone can devote themselves to the kind of mental and physical and spiritual devotion to do so without the net
Xs Andree: and not everyone should.
Zen (zen.arado): agree
Xs Andree: As wonderful as say..quantum physics is to me, it makes no difference at all to a carpenter, who has no use for it.
Xs Andree: if he spent the time on it that i do, his houses and desks and plaques and cabinets would never be made
Xs Andree: and then where would all my books go?
Zen (zen.arado): he uses its features though
Zen (zen.arado): without understanding why
Xs Andree: and all of these are symbols
Xs Andree: hammer, saw, heisenberg uncertainty principles
Xs Andree: they are as freeing as they are imprisoning
Zen (zen.arado): nothing would stop us wondering anyway
Zen (zen.arado): it's the nature of humans
Xs Andree: I think it might be the nature of the universe.
Xs Andree: not sure. just a suspicion of mine
Zen (zen.arado): yeh hard to know
Zen (zen.arado): I better go make my dinner Xs
Xs Andree: I'm okay with ignorance
Zen (zen.arado): nice talking to you
Xs Andree: Nice talking to you as well. One day, we might actually speak on absence.
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Xs Andree: :P
Zen (zen.arado): topics are just to get us started :)
Zen (zen.arado): byee
Xs Andree: have a good day, Zen