2012.10.27 01:00 - Sociopaths and families

Wol Euler was guardian for this session.

Wol Euler: timezone-appropriate greetings, xs
Xs Andree: Good aftermorneve to you as well.
Wol Euler: :)
Xs Andree: ao off
Xs Andree: That looks beautiful on you.
Wol Euler: awww, thank you
Wol Euler: it's from AVid, and is typical of their style
Xs Andree: I don't buy stuff much anymore, but i've heard a bit about Avid, and always liked it.
Xs Andree: i might get into making mesh clothing, but for now, I'm content to work on building on myself for a while.
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: sure, if I made clothes I probably wouldn't buy from anyone else either :)
Wol Euler: one needs to be a good painter to build well in SL (textures), I just don't have the talent for it
Xs Andree: lol I don't make clothing, i don't like doing slider work, it just frustrates me.
Xs Andree: i've had this shape forever, i don't work on my shape much at all
Wol Euler: oh, I must have misunderstood. What do you build?
Xs Andree: primwork.
Wol Euler: what does that mean?
Xs Andree: primitive objects, like the pillows and pillars here
Wol Euler: yes, I know what prims are :) I was wondering what you actually made from the prims.
Wol Euler: so, household items?
Xs Andree: are made from the builder, some parts of clothing are primitives as well, like the invisible prims for my shoes, and the shoes themselves, hair is prim work as well.
Wol Euler: of course
Xs Andree: I make avatar accessories
Wol Euler: okay
Xs Andree: but clothing, like pants, jackets and stuff is a lot of slider work
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: painted textures
Xs Andree: yeah, well it is actually mostly texture work too, which i don't do a lot of
Xs Andree: i buy my textures
Xs Andree: how is your day?
Wol Euler: snowing!
Xs Andree: great!
Wol Euler: it's too warm for it to settle, but that is definitely snowfall
Wol Euler: first of the year
Xs Andree: I have a good feeling about this winter. i don't like the cold, but i've liked the winters since 2003 even less, they scare me.
Xs Andree: last winter here barely even was.
Xs Andree: seeing a cold winter is comforting.
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: I miss the cold of Canadian winters, it barely gets below freezing here
Xs Andree: I grew up in Arizona
Wol Euler: ooh
Wol Euler: when did you first experience a cold winter? what age?
Xs Andree: like i said, i hate the cold, but here in kansas it used to be cold enough we'd usually have snow by halloween
Xs Andree: hmmm...

--BELL--

Xs Andree: The first i can remember i was seven
Wol Euler: it must have been a real surprise, being cold for the first time
Xs Andree: it was in flagstaff, also in Arizona, but by the sanfransisco peaks
Xs Andree: I hated it.
Wol Euler chuckles.
Xs Andree: it does get cold in arizona, even in the desert, but coldthere is usually around 40, sometimes down to around freezing.
Wol Euler nods.
Xs Andree: but that winter in flagstaff it was below zero.
Wol Euler: the plants must have suffered
Xs Andree: BUT...we had a few snows that year that was up to my shoulders!
Wol Euler: wow
Xs Andree: yeah
Xs Andree: nah, it snows all the time in flagstaff, they even have a ski resort there.
Wol Euler: well, I never knew that
Xs Andree: Arizona has all of the climates you can find in the western hemisphere except rain forest
Xs Andree: including tundra
Wol Euler is amazed.
Xs Andree: four major deserts, over 200 mountain ranges, six national forests
Xs Andree: tons of canyons
Wol Euler nods thoughtfully
Xs Andree: very beautiful sunsets
Xs Andree: although, the most amazing sunset i saw in California
Wol Euler: because of dust/sand in the air?
Xs Andree: nod nod
Xs Andree: and we usually get high piled clouds like marches of titans across the sky
Xs Andree: which are beautiful at the burning sky, and usually separated out by the heat
Wol Euler: sounds very beautiful
Xs Andree: so not just the western sky, but the entire sky sometimes looks as if it has been set ablaze
Xs Andree: In california though...the sunset i saw there...it wasn't as dramatic, but it was beautiful in a much more subtle way
Wol Euler listens.
Xs Andree: I watched Ra die in emerald flames as heaven burned in gold, pink and orange
Xs Andree: as the last of the green blaze sputtered and died in the distant ocean horizon, there was a crack like thunder
Xs Andree: and the locals there, clapped and bid farewell to the sun.
Wol Euler smiles.
Xs Andree: which i was grateful for, cause...it kind of scared me.
Xs Andree: the green blaze is what they call it, and it is pretty rare, from what they said....
Xs Andree: i was lucky to have seen it, i was only there 8 days, and most of the time the june gloom fog rolls in at both sunset and sunrise.
Wol Euler: there's something similar that is seen in the south of France sometimes, out over the Mediterranean
Wol Euler: the green ray
Xs Andree: I want to go to france someday, but i want to go to Ireland first.
Xs Andree: i shouldn't be so picky, but..I feel...fiercely loyal to ireland, and i feel It would be a dishonor to it to fly over it to see France first. lol

--BELL--

Wol Euler: heheheheh
Wol Euler: I know what you mean
Xs Andree: You are Irish as well?
Wol Euler: heh, not at all, but I also a geographical romantic :)
Xs Andree: ahhh
Wol Euler: that a place would be insulted by you flying over it to go elsewhere, makes perfect sense to me
Xs Andree: i wondered if it was ireland or the fierce loyalty you identified with
Xs Andree: ooh
Xs Andree giggles
Xs Andree: well..
Xs Andree: I"m scotts Irish, black irish, and irish
Xs Andree: and about a 1/4 german
Xs Andree: which means I can drink myself under the table three times and still go home sober
Wol Euler: typical American, then :)
Wol Euler: I'm half english, quarter russian, quarter norwegian
Wol Euler: not sure what that mix means :)
Xs Andree: well..i tease about the antipathy to the english, especially with my english friends. It is wonderful play
Xs Andree: ...but...my oldest boy is part english as well, so ..I suppose...I've a little english in me.
Xs Andree: several times.
Xs Andree giggles
Wol Euler chuckles.
Xs Andree: Me and his father sat in his mustang for hours one night, talking about our heritage.
Xs Andree: i'm also a teeny bit apache, and he was english, german irish, cherokee and a few other things as well, i forget it all
Xs Andree: but when he said he was english i said...oh..see...we're gonna fall madly in love with each other and have a beautiful child, and it'll all end in tears
Wol Euler: "melting pot" :)
Xs Andree nods
Xs Andree: and that is exactly what happened.
Xs Andree: this is why the irish should be careful on what they agree on.
Wol Euler smiles.
Xs Andree: But, we also agreed our son would be all the worth it, and he is.
Wol Euler: good :)
Wol Euler: brb
Xs Andree: kk
Wol Euler: back, sorry
Xs Andree: There is no need for apology between we
Wol Euler smiles.
Xs Andree: I'm enjoying the time with you.
Xs Andree: I know i chatter, but i would feel just at ease sitting quietly
Wol Euler: hehehehe

--BELL--

Xs Andree: but you inspire me, so i take advantage.
Wol Euler: not chatter, it's called conversation
Xs Andree: ooh, I chatter trust me. I don't speak very well irl.
Xs Andree: but i write much better, so i love being online.
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: you aren't the only one
Wol Euler: many people find it easier to talk here, for many reasons
Xs Andree: i find that i don't like voice at all here. i don't even like to hear it.
Wol Euler: agreed
Wol Euler: it's awful
Xs Andree: you think so too?
Wol Euler: it works far less well than typed chat
Wol Euler: oh yes, hate it
Xs Andree: yeah.
Xs Andree: ooh my...I'm getting suddenly very tired, lol.
Xs Andree: I've fallen asleep here a lot recently, even in mid day when i've had plenty of rest.
Wol Euler: well, it is the middle of the night :)
Wol Euler: go, sleep. Sleep is a good thing.
Xs Andree: yeah i know, but i wasn't tired until i got here for a bit.
Wol Euler: I have that effect on people :)
Wol Euler chuckles.
Xs Andree: lol,
Wol Euler: I think it's because I calm them down.
Wol Euler chuckles.
Xs Andree: I love you.
Wol Euler: awwwww
Wol Euler smiles.
Xs Andree smiles.
Xs Andree: I want to stay a little longer first.
Wol Euler: all right :)
Xs Andree: I want to dream tonight. I think I will.
Wol Euler: do you remember your dreams?
Xs Andree: not often, and i dream even less.
Wol Euler: well, I hope you do!
Wol Euler: tonight
Xs Andree: thank you.
Xs Andree: I dream a lot during the day instead.
Wol Euler laughs.
Wol Euler: I dream nearly every night, and can usually remember at least one scene, or sometimes just the mood
Wol Euler: this morning just before I woke, I was dreaming about EVE online :)
Wol Euler: opening containers to find stuff

--BELL--

Xs Andree: i used to play Eve online, i loved that game, but it was too complex, and threatened to swallow me whole. i don't think I would have ever gotten bored with it.
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: it's an odd thing, I don't actually like it much, I find it very repetitive
Wol Euler: but I do play it.
Wol Euler: it's very "grabby"
Xs Andree: I got into a corp who carved out a small niche in nullsec and trained us in losec for a bit, and we did a corp war to get us ready for it.
Xs Andree: I got into stealth bombers, gallente...
Wol Euler: heheh
Xs Andree: and piloted my bomber from hi sec into nullsec over 27 jumps
Xs Andree: alone
Wol Euler: impressive
Xs Andree: almost got pinched twice...played cat and mouse for three hours with them before i slipped past them.
Wol Euler grins.
Wol Euler: that "for three hours" in there, is the essence of the EVE experience :)
Wol Euler: it swallows time
Wol Euler: brb, coffee refill time
Xs Andree: I loved doing scans too, and scouting out wormholes and doing high risk mining in the middle of hostile actions.
Xs Andree: kk
Xs Andree: I had our system all mapped out with safe points, I'd come in on one side of the belt, over the top of it, scan the belt, then drop down aimed at the station, cruise through the belt at just under warp ready speed mining as I went along
Xs Andree: and the first sign of trouble I'd be out faster than heck and back in station
Wol Euler: .)
Xs Andree: I did the same thing mining in wormholes...orient toward my safe point, and pass through at just under jump ready speed and grab the really good minerals
Xs Andree: yeah, that is why i quit, it was ...
Xs Andree: just wow.
Wol Euler nods.
Xs Andree: I loved the maintained tension and vigilance it required.
Wol Euler: I've only been in for about two months.
Xs Andree: always on the lookout for danger.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Xs Andree: being as i'm slightly paranoid...
Xs Andree: I'm damn good at it.
Wol Euler: yeah
Xs Andree: and i felt at home like that.
Wol Euler: I'm a carebear, far too trusting and generous
Xs Andree: it was like zen
Wol Euler: dying in EVE is unlike any other game I've played, there is a real loss to it
Wol Euler: in WoW it's just a minor inconvenience.
Xs Andree: yeah, so true.
Xs Andree: that made it more addictive to me.
Xs Andree: funny thing though...
Xs Andree: my paranoia makes me too trusting as well.
Wol Euler: huh
Xs Andree: cause i know I'm paranoid
Wol Euler: how does that work?
Xs Andree: so I work hard to trust people, despite the delusions that press in on me all the time.
Wol Euler: ah, I see
Xs Andree: ...since I can't trust danger signs...
Wol Euler: tricky
Wol Euler: because even paranoids can have real enemies :(
Xs Andree: but...otherwise...I"d have no friends at all...and most people can be trusted if you understand that almost everyone can be trusted with something, and almost no one can be trusted with everything
Wol Euler: heh, very true
Wol Euler: my experience too is that most people are fair and honest and helpful
Xs Andree nods
Xs Andree: they are
Xs Andree: but not everyone values the same things you do
Wol Euler nods.
Xs Andree: so...they may not know the level of trust you place in them.
Xs Andree: If you can figure out what they value, then you know what to trus them with
Xs Andree: but...

--BELL--

Xs Andree: if you trust them with something they value, and they betray you...they are likely sociopathic, or antisocial
Xs Andree: oddly enough, you can trust them as well.
Xs Andree: but you have to build a relationship with them first.
Wol Euler: well, one can work around their ... oddnesses
Xs Andree nods
Xs Andree: not all of them are bad
Xs Andree: they just can't feel anything apart from fear or rage
Xs Andree: treating them ill for that is like ...treating someone ill for being blind
Wol Euler nods.
Xs Andree: but you can't waste sympathy or pity for them. If you think about it, such feelings are completely wasted on them, and pointless, it is like...talking to a deaf man.
Xs Andree: but I find that sometimes I do love them.
Xs Andree: and that is never a waste, because then you can understand them.
Wol Euler: helllo korel
Wol Euler nods to xs
Xs Andree: Hi hi!
Xs Andree: but...most sociopaths value trust.
Wol Euler: one might cynically reply that most carpenters value wood. Trust is the raw material sociopaths work with
Korel Laloix: Morning.
Wol Euler: is this early morning or late night for you?
Korel Laloix: Just got back in... smiles
Korel Laloix: Winding down..
Xs Andree: if you quietly demonstrate to them that you know what they are, without exposing them...and you can tell when they are trying to use you, but you give them trust where it makes sense, they value your company, and understanding.
Korel Laloix: Almost 4:30 here....
Wol Euler nods.
Xs Andree: it is likely that six people you know are sociopaths.
Xs Andree: i met one once who freely admitted it to me, I think because she knew I wouldn't make trouble for her because of it.
Xs Andree: We talked a lot, I grew up under one...one we shouldn't have trusted, and it bothered me that someone could truly be beyond all reach just because of the way they were born.
Xs Andree: so I was intensely curious about her.
Wol Euler listens.
Xs Andree: that is when I realized...it wasn't only a waste...but an insult to pity them, like..the story of the stork and the fox...
Korel Laloix: It involves a very flat wordview.... I have wondered about them as well.
Korel Laloix looks up stork and fox
Wol Euler doesn't know that either.
Xs Andree: lol there are a few fables of them, but the one i'm talking about, the fox serves the stork his drink in a bowl
Xs Andree: and laughs at the stork cause he can't drink out of it, his beak makes it very difficult
Wol Euler: ah, yes, I remember that now. :)
Xs Andree: then the stork invites the fox for a drink, and serves it to him in a vase...and the fox can't get his snout in it.
Xs Andree: yeah that one
Xs Andree: and i was like...it is more than pointless, it is rude.
Korel Laloix:

At one time the Fox and the Stork were on visiting terms and seemed very good friends. So the Fox invited the Stork to dinner, and for a joke put nothing before her but some soup in a very shallow dish. This the Fox could easily lap up, but the Stork could only wet the end of her long bill in it, and left the meal as hungry as when she began. "I am sorry," said the Fox, "the soup is not to your liking." "Pray do not apologize," said the Stork. "I hope you will return this visit, and come and dine with me soon." So a day was appointed when the Fox should visit the Stork; but when they were seated at table all that was for their dinner was contained in a very long-necked jar with a narrow mouth, in which the Fox could not insert his snout, so all he could manage to do was to lick the outside of the jar. "I will not apologize for the dinner," said the Stork: "One bad turn deserves another."

Xs Andree: oh yeah, soup
Xs Andree: I love that fable.
Korel Laloix: Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is described by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR), as an Axis II personality disorder characterized by "...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."[1]

--BELL--

Xs Andree: But this girl showed me that people always manipulate each other on some level for the things they need.
Xs Andree: yeah, antisocial people i have a much harder time getting along with.
Korel Laloix: F60.2 Dissocial (Antisocial) Personality Disorder Personality disorder, usually coming to attention because of a gross disparity between behaviour and the prevailing social norms, and characterized by at least 3 of the following: (a) callous unconcern for the feelings of others; (b) gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules and obligations; (c) incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them; (d) very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence; (e) incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment; (f) marked proneness to blame others, or to offer plausible rationalizations, for the behaviour that has brought the patient into conflict with society.
Korel Laloix: Manipulate is not the right word I don't think though.
Wol Euler: yes, I'm having trouble with that statement too
Xs Andree: i use it in a very nuetral tone.
Wol Euler: I think it's too broad and too negative
Xs Andree: like the way one's hands manipulate an object
Wol Euler: okay :)
Korel Laloix: Yes.... well said.... smiles
Wol Euler: clarity is always good.
Xs Andree: used on the broadest sense, because it isn't always cooperative.
Xs Andree: yeah i was reading so i didn't clarify yet.
Korel Laloix: OH OK.
Korel Laloix: I really think my mother is a sociopath.
Korel Laloix: And at one time I was tentatively diagnosed wiith APD myself.
Wol Euler: based on what you've said about her, I agree fully.
Xs Andree: someone who is emotionally blind though, has no care for social agreements, because while useful to us...they are based around our emotional needs, and our desire not to hurt each other, or to be hurty by one another.
Xs Andree: they vary widely from culture to culture, the most important elements are to fascilitate understanding of motivation when we deal with one another.
Xs Andree: understanding each other by following certain behaviors in appropriate contexts...
Xs Andree: each culture also tends to have acceptable times and ways of breaking those norms as well, sanctioned times for doing what is otherwise completely taboo
Wol Euler: right
Wol Euler: like the Japanese ritual of drinking with the boss after work
Xs Andree: All of this is very cumbersome and doesn't do much at all for someone with no emotions, there is no satisfaction that we get from it.
Wol Euler: where anyone, however lowly, may speak openly to anyone else
Wol Euler: but heaven help you if you try that again in the morning
Xs Andree: lol
Xs Andree: we kind of do that here in America too.
Xs Andree: once in a while. But..it is a little more complex, and we value our individuality so much...you just have to get to know your boss before you know what you can get away with saying.
Xs Andree: But..what happens in Vegas...stays in vegas
Xs Andree: :P
Wol Euler: hehehehh
Xs Andree: Must be hard with your mom.
Xs Andree: my stepdad was a sociopath, and very dangerous, and he was alwys breaking the ties with our family up and undermining our trust.
Korel Laloix: I don't talk with mom unless I have to.
Xs Andree: yeah. i can only imagine.
Wol Euler listens.
Korel Laloix: Nothing to say really.... I am still trying to patch things up with her.
Korel Laloix: But I think she is incapable.
Korel Laloix: But....... my latest stepdad is a great guy and gets along with her obviously.... so maybe there is something there that I never see.
Xs Andree: probably best not to try. i mean, if you can find peace in absence from her, that might be best.

--BELL--

Xs Andree: I wouldn't ever try to establish a bond with one in which i had a physically emotional bond with that i couldn't set aside. If you aren't a sociopath, and you are her daughter, there is a physical, chemical emotional bond with her that you can't stop.
Xs Andree: it happens because you grew inside her, and she raised you.
Korel Laloix: The thing is, she never considered me a person, just a thing.
Korel Laloix: So there is a physical bond, but very little else.
Xs Andree: nod
Wol Euler nods.
Xs Andree: If you can let your bond with her, your emotions for her inform you instead of motivate you, that might help. But...I've never run into that kind of situation before, ever.
Xs Andree: I don't worry about things like buddhism or that stuff when i'm with my mom.
Xs Andree: hmm...well..sometimes i do..when i know it helps.
Xs Andree: she is very skittish especially about us kids.
Korel Laloix: My mom is a big external source of motivation for me.
Xs Andree: gets panic attacks easily and worries endlessly...so..yeah, i suppose i do it for her sake when i talk to her.
Korel Laloix: Proving her wrong is really what I do wth most of my life.... so I don't want to get rid of that.
Korel Laloix: But I do wish I was more internally motivated.
Wol Euler: (((hugs)))
Xs Andree smiles
Xs Andree: Then you will.
Xs Andree: You won't stop until you do.
Korel Laloix: So even negative emotions can be put to good use.
Wol Euler nods.
Xs Andree: its something you can't shake...do you want peace with her...or...just for her to respect you enough that she doesn't use you?
Xs Andree: what do you want out of it?
Korel Laloix: I just want a mother.
Korel Laloix: I know that sonuds silly, but ....
Wol Euler: awwwww
Wol Euler: no, korel, it sounds entirely true and *normal*
Korel Laloix: No idea who my father is... only two half brothers.
Wol Euler takes your hand.
Xs Andree: would it mean the same to you, even if you knew she was faking it?
Korel Laloix: And I love my stepgrandma, but she is not blood.. not my color or culture.
Korel Laloix: Faking it?
Xs Andree: well..okay and we're assuming she is antisocial...
Xs Andree: cause i think you said you think she is.
Korel Laloix: Oh yes... she is.... not ust my impression.
Xs Andree: if she respected you enough to go through the motherly rituals and actions, even if she didn't feel it...
Xs Andree: okay
Xs Andree: without using you
Korel Laloix: I was either abused or neglected growing up.... really no memories of her being motherly at all.
Xs Andree: I mean now.
Korel Laloix: But I just may not remember.
Korel Laloix: Now she either ingores me or blames me.... lol... sort of pathetic really.
Xs Andree: yeah, my best friends mom is that way
Xs Andree: she was texting her over and over again, saying " I love you but...."
Wol Euler gives your hand a squeeze
Korel Laloix: I don't even get that....
Korel Laloix: I went to the hopistal to see her after her surgueries.
Korel Laloix: And she said it was my fault.... just stupid.
Wol Euler: :(
Korel Laloix: But, I have moved from active hate for her to apathy.
Korel Laloix: So I think that is in the right direction.
Wol Euler: absolutely
Xs Andree: nothing wrong with it, but it seems to be hurting you, or maybe it would just be better to talk about something else.
Korel Laloix: Probably.

--BELL--

Xs Andree nods
Korel Laloix: Nice to chat about it with someone other than my shrink though...
Xs Andree smiles
Xs Andree: yeah, i know.
Wol Euler smiles.
Xs Andree: my stepdad molested my brothers and sisters...fed my mom low doses of poison to keep her very sick, rat poison...
Wol Euler frowns. Some people really challenge my opposition to the death penalty.
Xs Andree: I went to see my dad the summer mom and him got together, and during that time i'd gotten molested by a kid in the neighborhod, a cycle of abuse thing...he'd been molested the summer before...
Xs Andree: and i said something about it
Xs Andree: so he never touched me, but he divided me out from my family, made me feel like i didn't belong there...and i ran away from home when i was 13
Korel Laloix: The one thing I am thankfull for is that I she never sexually abused me... her dislike of non-straight people is that solid. But a coupld of y stepfathers tried.
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat.... off to bed.
Wol Euler: goodnight, korel
Wol Euler: sleep well
Xs Andree: kk
Korel Laloix: Have a great day.
Korel Laloix: ciao
Xs Andree: I should go to bed, i don't even know why i started talking about that stuff..i guess...we were talking about trust issues.
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: in a way we have been accidentally following the week's theme of Deceptoin
Wol Euler: or circling around it, at leaset
Wol Euler: and yes, you should :)
Wol Euler: sleep is good.
Xs Andree: yeah, but...I didn't want to hurt Korel
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: +1 to your karma for that :)
Xs Andree: yeah...but...karma is an illusion.
Wol Euler: heh, if it works, then it doesn't mattter whether it's an illusion or not :)
Wol Euler: like placebos
Xs Andree: well..
Wol Euler: many peope are cured by taking placebos.
Xs Andree: its an inescapable illusion.
Wol Euler: so they work despite being an illusion
Xs Andree: we're an illusion as well.
Wol Euler laughs.
Wol Euler: careful now :)
Xs Andree: doesn't make us not real.
Wol Euler: exactly :)
Wol Euler: anyway :) off you go.
Wol Euler: goodnight, sleep well, be refreshed and bushytailed
Xs Andree: okay.
Wol Euler grins.
Xs Andree grumbles
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Wol Euler makes "shoooo, go away" gestures and laughs
Xs Andree: freaking mania
Xs Andree: ao on
Xs Andree: night wol.
Wol Euler: goodnight, xs