2012.10.22 19:00 - If We Are Really Looking

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

[quiet for a while]
 

Xs Andree: Hello, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xs :)
Eliza Madrigal: was a bit off page after sitting here a while... fidgeting with social media and happy to be relieved of it
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Xs Andree: lol
Xs Andree: no troubles.
Xs Andree: I don't mind just sitting here and being quiet
Xs Andree: or even having everything chaotic
Xs Andree: or serene
Eliza Madrigal: gracious of you
Eliza Madrigal: you remind me to appreciate the pauses

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San :)
Santoshima Resident: hi Eliza :)
Santoshima Resident: hi Xs :)
Xs Andree: Hi San, good to see you again.

Xs Andree: the lotus is fixed by the way.
Xs Andree: after many long hours.
Eliza Madrigal: seems so! Wol magic
Santoshima Resident: lotus was broken?
Eliza Madrigal: was taking a break from listening
Santoshima Resident: a well deserved rest
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: Xs, I'm not sure you realize I was Lila the other day... and curious about your leaving SL for a time
Eliza Madrigal: not sure why it interests me so much, but you said you were gone for 2 years... a long time
Xs Andree: no, I wasn't, and I didn't mean to ignore you either. But at times I feel like I"m not allowing myself to receive the discussion as well as give to it...so I think I missed the opportunity to answer.
Santoshima Resident: opportunity remains open
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh not at all... we were toward the end of the session, yes

Xs Andree: I'm glad, it isn't very interesting. I had rl issues, at the time I was dedicating a lot of time to building and trying to make a living out of SL or suppliment my own living. Money was very short
Xs Andree: and I love building.
Xs Andree: so it seemed to make sense
Xs Andree: but that was around...2008
Xs Andree: oh..wow it's been longer than four years then.
Eliza Madrigal: building can be very therapeutic
Xs Andree: erm, longer than two
Eliza Madrigal: wow
Xs Andree: it is!!
Xs Andree: so I had to focus on rl more
Xs Andree: I'd burned out on the social scene and sex clubs here then too.
Eliza Madrigal: I see

Xs Andree: I went to a dolly avatar, and suddenly the need for all that just stopped
Xs Andree: and I wanted to make dolly keys
Xs Andree: and horns and halos
Xs Andree: and walking scepters
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Xs Andree: but, we weren't making ends meet.
Xs Andree: so I left to try to keep up on the bills.
Eliza Madrigal: that makes sense.... would have been OK if able to integrate living and SL
Xs Andree: now few people are keeping up with bills, so I don't feel so guilty, I'm unemployed, looking for work, and spend my off time writing or here. or with friends.
Santoshima Resident: earning a living as a designer of sl items, would be challenging
Eliza Madrigal nods.. I think in the beginning many were able to though

Xs Andree: I came back to check out the economy here, really...but I've been doing a lot of soul searching over the past year now, and this place seems like a very useful way to spend my time on that.
Eliza Madrigal: am glad about that... have been enjoying your insights
Eliza Madrigal: I guess, tech wise, we're in some sort of transition space
Xs Andree: I've gotten back more than I've given, I feel.
Xs Andree: usually exactly what i need, when I need it. or just a little before.
Xs Andree: here and other places, in SL or RL...I'm very grateful for you guys, and Heironymus for introducing me to it.
Eliza Madrigal: :) thanks so much
Xs Andree: You are welcome, and thank you.
Xs Andree: my keyboard is wearing out I think
Eliza Madrigal: PaB, and SL in general, has been that sort of place for me too... like vast openness out of nowhere
Santoshima Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: well you mentioned you were a writer also, so I suppose your keyboard is getting good use :)

Xs Andree: travel is very easy here, so congregating with people of a like mind is very easy as well.

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: So the official topic is "deception" and we've already been having some fun with it...
Eliza Madrigal: in an earlier session we talked about how SL can change one's mind about what deception is, in some cases...
Eliza Madrigal: meeting so many people who think so differently from oneself
Eliza Madrigal: thoughts on the matter? :)

Santoshima Resident: deception? or delusion?
Eliza Madrigal: ah well that's an interesting distinction
Eliza Madrigal: either!
Santoshima Resident: deception seems to have some element of intentionality, even if self-deception
Santoshima Resident: serves an intentional purpose
Santoshima Resident: imo
Xs Andree: sorry, someone is not listening to me in IM's
Santoshima Resident: ah
Xs Andree: distracting me.
Santoshima Resident: best to get that out in the open
Santoshima Resident: so as to not deceive :)

Xs Andree: Well...I'm Irish
Eliza Madrigal: (they're a sleeping lotus maybe Xs) ;-)
Santoshima Resident: :)
Xs Andree: and I was raised in an interesting tradition
Xs Andree: sometimes a deception, in the form of a prank, brings truth that doesn't otherwise come.
Xs Andree: like Satori
Eliza Madrigal: interesting... like hacking
Xs Andree: right, but not to steal or control, but to communicate
Santoshima Resident: hence ; a purpose
Eliza Madrigal nods...

Santoshima Resident: greetings Ewen
Xs Andree: if the purpose is to bring truth, then is it deception?

Eliza Madrigal: yet some people, when they meet someone in SL who presents as very differently from their RL, think of that as deceptive...
Santoshima Resident: the word is mostly used in context of hiding something
Eliza Madrigal: I think over time one learns it is more complex
Santoshima Resident: in order to conceal
Santoshima Resident: not a positive connotation
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ewan :)
Ewan Bonham: Hi Folks..
Santoshima Resident: hi
Eliza Madrigal: true
Eliza Madrigal: so then 'hiding' brings up questions...what is one obligated to reveal?

Xs Andree: appearances can be deceptive, what others assume is real is not always so
Xs Andree: presenting oneself honestly in such a manner can seem to be deception. Such as...Lukey
Xs Andree: he's not a bunny irl
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: if he is, he's an amazingly eloquent bunny
Xs Andree: but he appears as one here. What does that mean? Is he revealing or hiding?
Xs Andree: I think he reveals.
Eliza Madrigal nods

Xs Andree: When I come here as a dolly, I feel like a dolly
Xs Andree: part of me is
Eliza Madrigal: please say more...? I've not known many dolls in SL...
Xs Andree: Neither have I, I know more of what it means to me than anyone else.
Xs Andree: it is...kind of a relief from the expected sexual role rl can put on a woman.
Xs Andree: no one hits on me as a doll
Eliza Madrigal: no? not for intentions of control?
Xs Andree: So then i don't have to be nice to them while they try to get my attention, when I just don't want to be hounded

Ewan Bonham: Yes, does it not make a statement of what you want when you come to sl?
Xs Andree: I think it does.
Xs Andree: ummm...but...look how I'm dressed now?
Xs Andree: it could be taken as one way...but..I feel relaxed today and comfortable.
Xs Andree: so i didn't change it before I came here.
Xs Andree: but with my shirt all open someone might think i'm trying to get attention.
Xs Andree: but...no one's bugged me all day so...
Eliza Madrigal: :) look cute.. and also the clothing in SL is rather revealing as a default
Xs Andree grins

--BELL--

Ewan Bonham: Perhaps how others treat us has a lot to do with the energy we place into the avatar?
Xs Andree: I have some very old style clothing too, from medeival sims and steampunk as well as statues, dollies, a mannequin....
Santoshima Resident: sure, yes, Ewen ~
Santoshima Resident: and then there is the visual attention seeking behaviour of various stripes
Santoshima Resident: it's not decption
Santoshima Resident: it's playing with dolls
Santoshima Resident: dress up
Santoshima Resident: these are cartoons
Santoshima Resident: ith a particual aesthetic
Santoshima Resident: there's a kind of homogeneity overall

Xs Andree: Then what does it mean to present oneself in a deceptive way in SL?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, energy can be invested in so many ways
Santoshima Resident: yes
Santoshima Resident: creativity expressed
Santoshima Resident: Xs, what would you answer yourself?

Eliza Madrigal: great, Xs ... a mannequin :) [snapped pic] :)
Eliza Madrigal: some are very expressive with one avatar, and then some have various avatars that create various manifestations
Ewan Bonham: I thin there is that element as well.. an expression of spiritual minfulness..
Santoshima Resident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZT--rrzq3g
Xs Andree: There is no deception
Santoshima Resident: for later
Xs Andree: ao on
Eliza Madrigal clicks and saves
Xs Andree: except of the self

Eliza Madrigal: I think for most people who stay in SL, really explore over time.. even if they set out to deceive they run into themselves
Santoshima Resident: aint no where you can run ...
Xs Andree: ((this is my Cenobite))
Eliza Madrigal: :) true that
Santoshima Resident: say what?
Santoshima Resident: bug?
Ewan Bonham: If we are really looking at our true essence...:)
Xs Andree: clive Barkers Hellraiser
Santoshima Resident: never seen
Eliza Madrigal: oooh... not familiar but dramatic avie

Xs Andree: Pinhead, Angelique, chatterbox, the demons were called Cenobites
Santoshima Resident: am so not into hrro movies
Santoshima Resident: horror
Santoshima Resident: gad
Xs Andree: i LOVE horror
Santoshima Resident: sure!
Santoshima Resident: so do i in small doses
Santoshima Resident: mold in the fridge fer instance

Xs Andree: Horror is about horror, not fear, about confronting the revulsive and what we wish to turn away from.
Xs Andree nods
Xs Andree: I've had to confront a lot of horror irl, so...seeing it on screen fascinates me...because I have to ask....
Xs Andree: are we all capable of doing the horrifying?
Xs Andree: Am I capable?
Santoshima Resident: enough horror without films, ty
Santoshima Resident: no need to externalize
Xs Andree: See you turn away
Xs Andree: but the homeless man on the street...
Eliza Madrigal: hmm... exploring dark sides
Xs Andree: with his urine stained smell and alcoholic breath...and lost stare into nothing, this is horror as well
Ewan Bonham: And so sl can be a mirror of our mind's eye..
Xs Andree: and the walking skeletons of aushwitz...the germans turned away from them, and the monsters that created them
Santoshima Resident: anyway ... love david mamet films
Santoshima Resident: the ones that feature deception
Santoshima Resident: which is about all of them
Xs Andree: hmmm
Xs Andree: I've never heard of him. I should look them up.
Xs Andree: David Mamet

Eliza Madrigal: you know, amidst all the political twittering the following came up: "The right practice for you isn’t necessarily the one you like best. It’s the one you can’t ignore." Ken McLeod
Xs Andree nods
Xs Andree: I like that, Eliza
Xs Andree: ao off
Ewan Bonham: nod..
Xs Andree: I think that deception arises from within, what we want to see
Eliza Madrigal: there may be a fine balance between tapping into one's aspirations or 'ideal self' as some say they approach Sl as a vehicle to do... and deception/denial
Xs Andree: is what we see
Santoshima Resident: indeed, Ewen
Xs Andree: if the desert leads me into a sand pit, thinking it is water, who decieved me?

--BELL--

Ewan Bonham: Hmmm.. I think we are also getting into whether a person is aware they are decieving themselves...
Xs Andree: In the Lord of the rings, gollum blames bilbo for tricking him...but he didn't, he just didn't understand. "What's in my pockets"
Xs Andree: ...My precious
Xs Andree: we are always decieving ourselves the moment we think we know the truth
Eliza Madrigal: it would be pretty difficult to relate, as fallible beings, without some ability to conceal and reveal various aspects at different times
Xs Andree: well, at least that is how I know i'm decieving myself.
Santoshima Resident: well stated, Eliza

Xs Andree: Try to reveal yourself to someone entirely at any moment.
Ewan Bonham: Perhaps at times it is not deception...which assumes intent..
Xs Andree: what conflicts i find in myself when I do, the contradictions, they are both the truth, yet they contradict one another, how can they both be true?
Xs Andree: am I entirely generous, completely selfish?

Ewan Bonham: Perhaps there is only so much a person is willing to reveal at a time..
Xs Andree: but...try to reveal yourself fully.
Xs Andree: try it
Eliza Madrigal: ah, nods.... that was San's earlier point too Ewan... purpose
Santoshima Resident: relational, contextual ... tak ethe entence apart Xs, it makes not sense
Santoshima Resident: not = no
Santoshima Resident: tak = take
Santoshima Resident: ethe = the
Santoshima Resident: entence = sentence
Santoshima Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: well we can surely feel we are revealing all at times... at least I can
Xs Andree: what i am saying is this...
Ewan Bonham: Nod..
Eliza Madrigal: then later look back and >gasp<
Xs Andree: If i try to put myself off as something to someone else that i am not...
Xs Andree: i want them to see me as that thing
Xs Andree: so I want to be that thing
Eliza Madrigal nods
Santoshima Resident: uh huh
Xs Andree: am I not that thing?
Santoshima Resident: uh: {out on a limb here} : no
Eliza Madrigal: for myself there can be ideas of what I think they think, that thing may be
Xs Andree: then why did I chose it, out of everything I could have?
Xs Andree: maybe I think I can't be, or that i'm not, or that it wouldn't be any real fun...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Xs Andree: but I did choose it.

Ewan Bonham: Maybe I am not fully aware of 'everything'...:)
Santoshima Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: mostly well intended... my kids laugh at me when I try to relate too much
Eliza Madrigal smiles at Ewan
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Eliza Madrigal: maybe :)
Xs Andree: I don't think deception exists apart from the self.
Santoshima Resident: what self?
Xs Andree: i don't have any answers for that.

Xs Andree: but i know...when others try to lie to me, I see through it if I'm being honest with myself.
Ewan Bonham: I look at sl as a school for discovering my 'mind'..
Eliza Madrigal: how so Ewan?
Xs Andree: and i see the truth in them, even in deception
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm

Ewan Bonham: Well, I was addressing this conversation..
Ewan Bonham: What if I perceive a certain way about myself because for now I am only aware of that much of myself..
Ewan Bonham: And I have yet to discover more thru experiences here in sl..
Ewan Bonham: For example, this conversation is a lesson..
Santoshima Resident: yes, and not even, what if .... we become ourselves through interaction, experiences in relation to others
Ewan Bonham: nodding..
Eliza Madrigal: and different ways of relating with others.... there is something in 'seeing the truth in them even in deception'... clear seeing

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: and with ourselves too, maybe not so easy :)
Ewan Bonham: If I am open to seeing it in myself..
Xs Andree: Often when we suspect deception, we start with it as a premise in our reasoning, then seek to prove it
Ewan Bonham: Nod..
Eliza Madrigal: blindspot preconceptions
Xs Andree: but if the premesis is false, then logic is unsound, and the conclusion is unproven
Xs Andree: even if the logic is valid
Xs Andree: Premises are assumed to be true, and logic can be entirely consistent and come with the wrong conclusion
Santoshima Resident: i must be going ~ thank you for this conversation ~
Eliza Madrigal: agree
Eliza Madrigal: these conversations are fascinating to me... they tangle and clear simultaneously... but I must say goodnight... eyes closing... long day and discouragement at the idea for choosing/voting between deceptions :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night San :)
Santoshima Resident: 'night Eliza
Xs Andree: ugh
Santoshima Resident: bye Ewen and Xs ~ take care
Ewan Bonham: Night folks..:)
Xs Andree: election day is coming too.
Eliza Madrigal: nods... sigh
Ewan Bonham: Good to see you all again...:)
Xs Andree: Thank you Ewan.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for coming tonight - much to consider
Eliza Madrigal: <3
Xs Andree: I found your thoughts much more clearly put than mine.
Eliza Madrigal: so many sparks tonight
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes the rereading is amazing :)))
Eliza Madrigal: hugs
Xs Andree hugs around
Xs Andree: spikey razor hugs