2011.05.28 01:00 - A burning answer

Wol Euler was guardian for this session.

Wol Euler: hello zon
Zon Kwan: hi wol
Wol Euler: how are you?
Zon Kwan: and good morning
Wol Euler: indeed
Wol Euler: this is late for you, or very early
Zon Kwan: almost midday
Wol Euler: hello pema
Zon Kwan: hi pema
Wol Euler: oh, really? sorry, I thought you were an American :)
Pema Pera: Hi Wol, and hi Zon, long time no see!
Zon Kwan: thank you
Pema Pera: shall we pick a topic? any burning question, or perhaps a burning answer? :-)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: burning answers sound dangerous
Pema Pera: :-)
Wol Euler: I suspect we have had too many of those in the past
Pema Pera: you may be right there . . .
Zon Kwan: hm..thinks a burning question
Wol Euler: "why would people rather kill the calf and eat well today, then let it grow to a cow and breed it and so eat well for the rest of their lives?"
Wol Euler: whence this relentless short-term-ism?
Pema Pera: good question :)
Pema Pera: myopia?
Zon Kwan: greed ?
Pema Pera: or fear that someone else will kill their calf in the mean time?
Wol Euler: perhaps it's instinctual, from times hundreds of thousands of years ago when resources were scarce, because little children are that way too
Wol Euler: right, if you have grounds to believe that the tiger will eat the calf, then it's sensible for you to do so first
Zon Kwan: the fear of limited resourcess
Wol Euler: but the tigers we face are *all* of our own making
Pema Pera: so what shall we do about our tigers?
Wol Euler: look at them closely, and see that they are only ourselves at our worst
Wol Euler: oh, let me enter a quote from a buddy of mine...
Pema Pera: Hi Yaku!
Zon Kwan: yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning everyon
Wol Euler: hello yaku
Wol Euler: "When I was younger I thought that the problem with the world was that other people weren't like me. I date my adulthood from the moment when I realized that the problem is that other people are, in fact, exactly like me."
Wol Euler grins.
Pema Pera: :-)
Zon Kwan: nods..same basically
Pema Pera: and then the question is, how fluid are both of those identities . . .
Zon Kwan: but with an urge to be different
Pema Pera: ah, here is a quote, I don't remember from whom: we tend to judge ourselves by our intentions, and others by their actions
Wol Euler: yes! damn, that is so true
Zon Kwan: perhaps cause we project
Zon Kwan: our secret intentions to other actions
Pema Pera: ah, yes!
Zon Kwan: others
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: thickening the plot even more . . .
Zon Kwan: and making us loose ourself on life drama

--BELL--

Wol Euler: [01:12] Pema Pera: and then the question is, how fluid are both of those identities . . .
Zon Kwan: yes
Zon Kwan: focus shifting..
Wol Euler: it's certainly harder to be contemptuous of others when you recognize your kinship (not impossible, but harder)
Pema Pera: discovering the potential for all kind of foolish things in ourselves as well as others, can make us humble, and also can make us realize that neither side has to actualize that potential
Pema Pera: and in fact, when and only when both sides acknowledge that, they can join hands and work on it :-)
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: (as we are now doing :>)
Wol Euler: perhaps the key is this urge to *tribalism* that we seem to have, the apparent need to identify small groups of "us" and to exclude the rest
Zon Kwan: nods... we tend to identify ourselves to various things
Pema Pera: yes, outside ourselves, and perhaps each of us also inside . . . denying some parts of us that don't fit in with the tribal self
Wol Euler: which comes up in all kinds of places, the way that four random strangers who came together by chance at a table for six, will sometimes defend that table against a fifth random person who's looking for a seat
Wol Euler: (saw recently in a museum cafe)
Pema Pera: :-)
Zon Kwan: now my burning question: why do we need to identify
Wol Euler: yes, joining the tribe means suppresssing lots of aspects of ourselves
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think partly it´s important to have ,,a tribe" but the issue is not to forget why we need one, to to explore our thoughts in other minds of a community which is harder in a group of random ppl still when it comes to appreaciation of what is and kindness then we all should be the same
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: yes, we can have both
Pema Pera: appreciating diversity and yet appreciating similarity too in values
Wol Euler: the problem isn't "tribe" but "only our tribe is right and good"
Pema Pera nods
Pema Pera: Zon: good question -- concern, perhaps, for our safety?
Zon Kwan: the idea of identifying to some parts of reality
Pema Pera: a biological urge to survive, by trying what seems to work?
Zon Kwan: and excluding ohers
Pema Pera: in itself a good strategy
Pema Pera: safer to walk through a door than through a window, say :)
Pema Pera: like with the tribe situation, rigid identification is the problem, not the identity itself
Pema Pera: I like the identity of doors as doors and am glad I can recognize those
Zon Kwan: but the process of identication is waht interets me
Pema Pera: in what way, Zon?
Zon Kwan: in zen it is thought
Zon Kwan: there is no me really
Zon Kwan: i just identify
Zon Kwan: to some parts
Pema Pera: hi Sun!
Zon Kwan: of reality
Zon Kwan: and cal it me

--BELL--

Sunshine Vayandar: hi Pema ;) Yaku, Zon
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey sun
Sunshine Vayandar: and Woly ;)
Wol Euler: hello sun!
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Pema Pera: that's a very complex question, Zon, about self and no-self . . . how do you experience that personally, when you struggle with that?
Zon Kwan: hi sun
Zon Kwan: i lately
Zon Kwan: have begun
Zon Kwan: to see me thinking
Zon Kwan: and noting
Zon Kwan: that there he is
Zon Kwan: thinking
Zon Kwan: again
Pema Pera: :-)
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Zon Kwan: but what is he
Wol Euler: :)
Zon Kwan: a thought himself ?
Zon Kwan: or a localized point
Zon Kwan: of one whole
Zon Kwan: not really
Zon Kwan: being separete
Zon Kwan: just thinking to be
Zon Kwan: perhaps this is the shifting Pema mantioned
Pema Pera: thank you for an inspiring way of recounting your experiences, Zon!
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: it sounds so simple, and it really is simple, once we catch on
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Pema Pera: -- and then we let it slip away again :-)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: like the monkey mind during meditation
Pema Pera: talking of which, it's time for me to slip away too . . . .
Wol Euler: bye pema, bon appetit
Pema Pera: nice meeting y'all here again!
Sunshine Vayandar: nice to see you Pema
Pema Pera: recht herzlichen dank, Wol !
Sunshine Vayandar: have a great day ;)
Wol Euler smiles.
Pema Pera: bye everybody!
Sunshine Vayandar: bye
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
Sunshine Vayandar: that sounds familiar Zon - I also notice myself thinking ...
Sunshine Vayandar: it's like a bell rings ... "too much thinking" hehe
Zon Kwan: yes
Sunshine Vayandar: I also notice - others doing the same
Zon Kwan: and when i do..its like a burden is lift of
Sunshine Vayandar: yes ;)
Zon Kwan: let him think
Wol Euler nods.
Zon Kwan: i watch
Sunshine Vayandar: it's like sometimes I notice others going into the "forest of thoughts"
Sunshine Vayandar: completely lost

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: nods..then they get sucked into the drama
Sunshine Vayandar: yes it gets emotional
Zon Kwan: and can draw you into it too
Zon Kwan: and there we go again
Zon Kwan: lol
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Sunshine Vayandar: drama after drama hehe
Zon Kwan: nods
Sunshine Vayandar: so these day I often seem to be standing outside the drama ...
Sunshine Vayandar: and those inside it - think - "she is strange"
Zon Kwan: yes but the trick is i think
Zon Kwan: to be in drama
Zon Kwan: knowing it
Zon Kwan: not outsied
Zon Kwan: inside
Zon Kwan: enjoying
Sunshine Vayandar: to be in the drama?
Zon Kwan: and realising
Zon Kwan: the transitional nature
Zon Kwan: of it
Zon Kwan: to be in the world
Zon Kwan: but not of it
Zon Kwan: as jesus put it
Zon Kwan: not to be out of it
Sunshine Vayandar: in the world but not of it ...
Zon Kwan: i htink its zen too
Zon Kwan: carry water
Wol Euler smiles.
Sunshine Vayandar: can you explain more Zon
Zon Kwan: or relise water is beeing carried
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Sunshine Vayandar ponders about the above
Zon Kwan: if i could..i would
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Sunshine Vayandar: everyone seems to be pondering ;)
Wol Euler: sm
Wol Euler smiles.
Sunshine Vayandar: hope your saturday is great so far ;)
Wol Euler: pab, coffee, music ... pretty good :)
Sunshine Vayandar: here too

--BELL--

Sunshine Vayandar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqqWfsIxbPo
Wol Euler: "not available in my country" well, fuck you too, Sony.
Sunshine Vayandar: grrr
Sunshine Vayandar: hmm ;(
Wol Euler: Sony has gone from being my musical-hardware manufacturer of choice, to being the dickheads who won't let me listen to music. Great work, guys.
Sunshine Vayandar: hmm is there a way to go around it
Sunshine Vayandar: I get that message too sometimes
Sunshine Vayandar: http://playingforchange.com/episodes...e_Little_Birds
Sunshine Vayandar: may be here it works
Wol Euler: ah! that works! heheheheh
Wol Euler: ty
Sunshine Vayandar: yohooooo
Sunshine Vayandar: Bob Marley song
Sunshine Vayandar: what are you listening to Wol
Wol Euler: that, right now :) before it, Portishead "Third"
Sunshine Vayandar: on youtube?
Sunshine Vayandar: oh Yaku disappeared
Wol Euler: on cd
Wol Euler: on a sony player, grrrrr
Sunshine Vayandar: hehe
Sunshine Vayandar: I found it on utube
Wol Euler: cool
Sunshine Vayandar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dfpSUPEwpI
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Wol Euler: wb
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx
Wol Euler: "not available in your country"
Wol Euler: dickheads.
Sunshine Vayandar: wb ;)
Sunshine Vayandar: really Wol
Yakuzza Lethecus: there is a little tool called hotspot shield
Yakuzza Lethecus: with that you gain an american ip adress
Wol Euler: ah :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: works at least for this or for going shopping in dollars :)
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Sunshine Vayandar: come to africa wol ;) u can watch it
Wol Euler: heheheh
Sunshine Vayandar: ;p
Sunshine Vayandar: listening to Portishead
Zon Kwan: are u from africa sunshine ?
Sunshine Vayandar: yes and no ;)
Wol Euler smiles.
Sunshine Vayandar: from Hungary - came to africa in 97
Sunshine Vayandar: afro-hungarian
Sunshine Vayandar: hungaro-african ;p
Zon Kwan: cool :)
Sunshine Vayandar: where are you from Zon
Zon Kwan: north europe
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Yakuzza Lethecus: norway, finnland or sweden ?
Zon Kwan: yes
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Sunshine Vayandar: ty for the morning chat guys and the music ;)
Sunshine Vayandar: byebyeee for now
Zon Kwan: me too go must
Zon Kwan: see ya
Sunshine Vayandar: take care all
Wol Euler: bye sun, bye zon
Wol Euler: enjoy the day
Sunshine Vayandar: u2
Sunshine Vayandar: ;)

--BELL--

Wol Euler: I should head out too, I have shopping to do before it rains again
Wol Euler: enjoy the day, yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye wol
Wol Euler: bye!