The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Zen Arado: Hi Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi there Zen :)
Zen Arado: getting art place ready?
Storm Nordwind: Not really. That's not my job this time. I shall remove old stuff that people don't take themselves. Otherwise I shall step aside.
Zen Arado: only need a few plinths really and they are there?
Storm Nordwind: I shall take away the plinths. Then I think Bleu and co. will install the positions
Zen Arado: ah ok
Zen Arado: bigger exhibits this time
Zen Arado: I forgot
Storm Nordwind: So i understand
Zen Arado: you haven't been in SL much lately?
Storm Nordwind: I'm sure people get fed up of my ugly mug ;) I've been giving them a rest!
Zen Arado: no no
Zen Arado: I feel a bit tired lately
Storm Nordwind: Change of season?
Zen Arado: I had a friend lives in Vancouver visiting me
Zen Arado: last weekend
Storm Nordwind: That can be tiring
Zen Arado: was exhausted after he left
Storm Nordwind: I can understand. Sorry to hear that.
Zen Arado: nice to see him and chat about old times in Australia though
Storm Nordwind smiles
Storm Nordwind: One place I have never been
Storm Nordwind: Atcually two, as I never went to your neck of the woods either!
Zen Arado: Hi Xirana:)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Xirana!
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Zen, Storm :)
Zen Arado: he took me down to the Mournes
Zen Arado: Newcastle
Zen Arado: a nice town
Zen Arado: mountains rear up very quickly from the sea
Zen Arado: but only aroound 5000 feet
Zen Arado: Hi Druth :)
Storm Nordwind: Wikipedia suggests 2,790 ft
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
Zen Arado: oh?
Zen Arado: memory isn't so good I guess
Storm Nordwind: I have that problem too ;)
Storm Nordwind: Hi druth
Xirana Oximoxi: hello druth
Zen Arado: thought it was around 3000 M
Zen Arado: but it is feet
Storm Nordwind: We had the first snow of the winter on nearby mountains this weekend
Zen Arado: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slieve_Donard
Xirana Oximoxi: nice picture Zen, ty:)
Zen Arado: my friend kept hitting the kerb
Zen Arado: used to driving on the right
Zen Arado: scared me
Zen Arado: lost thearm rest for my wheelchair too
Xirana Oximoxi: yes... it may be difficult to drive at the other side when you are used to left :)
Zen Arado: left it on roof of car
Xirana Oximoxi: adentures:)
Zen Arado: have now lost one armrest and two cushions that way
--BELL--
Zen Arado: want to use this week's topic?
Zen Arado: The Opportunities and Dread of Being Lost (including doubts and terrors)
Xirana Oximoxi: if you like:)
Zen Arado: I just wrote a quick paragraph
Zen Arado: I'm doing a lot of freewriting lately
Xirana Oximoxi: ok, thanks:)
Zen Arado: creative writing course
Zen Arado: hard to write freely I find
Xirana Oximoxi: practicing your writitng course tips
Zen Arado: she made us swrite one again
Zen Arado: they were too like descriptions
Zen Arado: not just a jumping off point
Zen Arado: anyway...
Zen Arado: So in the first place, what does “Being Lost” mean? It reminds me of the Christian expression “lost in sin.” ‘I was lost but now I’m found’ does it mean there is some safe solid ground we can stand on? Isn’t that what a lot of us want? We don’t like parts of this vague unfathomable life with all of its problems and uncertainties, we want a nice formula, something we can hold onto, an anchor in the storms of life. Religions often provide that. But it doesn’t seem possible to me. If everything is changing and impermanent how can there be any firm ground to stand on? Some of our survival tactics seem to be to try to pin down life into formulas and prescriptions and useful concepts, pretending that things are solid forms, and useful they are, but life unfortunately resists these formulations and remains inexplicable and formless. So maybe the best way to conquer the dread and use the opportunities is to realise we can’t control life, we can only make the best use of the opportunities it
Zen Arado: provides. ‘Go with the flow.’ Like steering a canoe down a turbulent stream.
Xirana Oximoxi: reading slolwly :)
Zen Arado: I was reading the guardian's log and Maxine said something interesting
Zen Arado: about need ing both lostness and foundness
Xirana Oximoxi: usually we need to know both sides of every feeling to apprecitate them
Zen Arado: yeh
Xirana Oximoxi: like when we were talking about happiness
Zen Arado: was reading Alan Watts book about Tao
Zen Arado: about need ing both polarities
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Hana
Zen Arado: Hi Hana :)
Hana Furlough: Hi all!
Zen Arado: yin'yang
Zen Arado: form/emptiness
Storm Nordwind: Hi Hana. LTNS
Hana Furlough: yes, ltns!
Xirana Oximoxi: do you think there's a difference between men and womes related to get 'lost'?...in the sense tha maybe women are more fond to a kind of 'stability?
Xirana Oximoxi: not taking risks
Zen Arado: women need stability for child rearing
Storm Nordwind: If you have an inner sense of stability, Xirana, you can take whatever risks you feel you need to or want to.
Zen Arado: they tend to get burdened with the bulk of early childhood care?
Zen Arado: or lose fear of instability?
Zen Arado: we could have a stroke any moment
Storm Nordwind shrugs
Zen Arado: I heard a young woman of 20 describe how she had a stroke
Xirana Oximoxi: I understand 'taking' risks' as a way to have the probablility to lose stability.... but I suppose this is not easy to talk about it in general..should have a context
--BELL--
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Eliza:)
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :))
Storm Nordwind waves
Hana Furlough: Hi Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: apologies for my inconvenient arrival promptly on the bell
Zen Arado: just a quick para I wrote Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Zen
Zen Arado: please disagree with it
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Zen Arado: it was only to prompt discussion
Xirana Oximoxi: Zen asked in the text: If everything is changing and impermanent how can there be any firm ground to stand on?
Zen Arado: yes ...groundlessness
Xirana Oximoxi: so, maybe it is all in our minds... the senses of beeing safe or lost
Zen Arado: Hi San :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe standing isn't what we think it is, that's all
Santoshima Resident: hello :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San
Xirana Oximoxi: hello San :)
Hana Furlough: :)
Hana Furlough: Hi San!
Zen Arado: yes Xiri...just concepts?
Xirana Oximoxi: yes... but not just concepts..because you can feel them
Zen Arado: if we can feel them they are more solid?
Xirana Oximoxi: not more solid, maybe, but they go beyond mind...getting all senses we have
Eliza Madrigal: if things were so solid they wouldn't need constant propping up and convincing ... it is amazing the extent to which humans go through reifying rituals ... confirming existence in various ways
Zen Arado: are our other senses more valid that the mind?
Zen Arado: than
Hana Furlough: can you give an example of that, eliza?
Xirana Oximoxi: not more valid...we need both, mind and senses
Zen Arado: but people do say they have a 'gut' feeling and think that is more valid
Eliza Madrigal: well, even in SL if someone walks away and comes back two moments later we're compelled to say 'welcome back'... like we see you left and now you are back... in 'RL' it would be with a smile or nod, but still a ritual
Hana Furlough: interesting...thanks!
Zen Arado: affirmation rituals
Zen Arado: hmm
Zen Arado: never thought of that
Xirana Oximoxi: when people have 'good' feeling...they are not wondering about the concept...they live it...like when you feel lost
Zen Arado: birth, death, wewddings...
Eliza Madrigal nods Xiri
Xirana Oximoxi: Zen, 'gut'...you meant 'good'?
Zen Arado: some people trust reason more than feelingas though?
Zen Arado: no ...in the stomach
Zen Arado: an American expression
Xirana Oximoxi: ok...moment:) (dictionnary:))
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: I think
Storm Nordwind: visceral
Zen Arado: yes
Xirana Oximoxi: ok, thanks :)
Zen Arado: doubts and terrors are necessary?
Zen Arado: fearlessness would be dangerous
Xirana Oximoxi: fear can help to survive
Zen Arado: yes
Santoshima Resident: { peaceful day ~ shantih }
Zen Arado: byee san
Xirana Oximoxi: I think I remember Storm disagreeing with it:)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind smiles and nods
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye San :)
Hana Furlough: bye San!
Storm Nordwind: As a four year old child I put my hand on a grill plate. It burnt my hand and it hurt. I was bandaged for many days. I never did it again. But I never feared grill plates as a result!
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: nice example
Zen Arado: Hi Aph :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Aph! :)
druth Vlodovic: fear is an indicator, a degree of caution
Xirana Oximoxi: Thanks for this exemple Storm...I understand what you mean much better now:)
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks zen
druth Vlodovic: too much is bad but it let's your instincts inform your mind
Zen Arado: healthy respect for grills though Storm :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: hi
Eliza Madrigal: wow pretty gown
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks
Aphrodite Macbain: thought I'd go dancing
Zen Arado: people who don't feel pain have a terrible time
Storm Nordwind: True. But pain and fear are separate things. People fear all sorts of things not related to pain
Zen Arado: perhaps there is a mental side to that too
Zen Arado: fear in the sense of magmifying thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: helpful distinction
Zen Arado: groundless fears
Hana Furlough: (sneaks out to go to bed -- thanks all!)
Eliza Madrigal: Nite Hana :)
Zen Arado: nite Hana :)
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Hana :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Hana- bye
Zen Arado: wherever you are :)
Storm Nordwind: When one sees everything always in perspective, perhaps that is enlightenment :)
Zen Arado: these words let us down
Eliza Madrigal: people very led by their feelings sometimes 'seem' to lean on reason more, being more captivated (maybe a touch of curious fear) - as in the spirit of thou doth protest too much - is one theory
Aphrodite Macbain: equanimity?
Zen Arado: now I'm wondering about 'perspective'
Aphrodite Macbain: the position you see things from
Storm Nordwind: I hcouldn't decide between typing perspective and proportion. My intuition told me perspective :)
Zen Arado: a position need solid ground though?
Aphrodite Macbain: what did your brain tell you \storm?
Storm Nordwind: No idea Aph. :)
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: a no perspective perspective
Eliza Madrigal: I am not sure 'doubt and terror' are the same as the kind of fears we are speaking of... I think of it more like the dark places around the corners .... does enlightenment mean no blind corners?
Storm Nordwind: Following my intuition always works, without exception. Following my brain has a less successful record! ;)
Aphrodite Macbain: where does intuition come from?
Aphrodite Macbain: emotions or our rational side?
Xirana Oximoxi: maybe we feeel 'fear' when we are in front of something unknown for us....you don't feel 'fear' in front of a grill plate because you learned what it was used for....but other thinks maybe are not so easy to explain to ourselves...
Storm Nordwind: I can't tell you where yours comes from. And as a pragmatist I don't need to know where mine comes from. :)
Zen Arado: perfect knowledge drives out fear' Jesus
Eliza Madrigal: love, Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe same?
Aphrodite Macbain: what is perfect knowledge?
Zen Arado: oh good misquote :)
Xirana Oximoxi: it does not exist
Aphrodite Macbain: omnisience?
Eliza Madrigal: which isn't knowing about 'everything' but having access when needed... maybe perfected intuition?
Storm Nordwind: Perfect knowledge knows what needs to be known and knows it.
Zen Arado: what is perfect love I wonder
Xirana Oximoxi: me too :)
Eliza Madrigal: the supreme question
Zen Arado: sometimes thinks spiritual teachers use vague language
Zen Arado: maybe that is the secret
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not sure it's important to me what is perfect
Zen Arado: you add your own meaning
Eliza Madrigal: vague on the surface perhaps but traditions are pretty specialized and intricate?
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like abstract art to me
--BELL--
Zen Arado: A. Watts talks about this regarding I Ching:
Zen Arado: The comment is invariably oracular, vague, and ambivalent, but a person taking it seriously will use it. like a Rorschach blot and project into it, from his “unconscious,” whatever there is in him to find in it. This is surely a way of allowing oneself to think without keeping a tight guard on one’s thoughts, whether logical or moral. Watts, Alan (2010-11-20). Tao: The Watercourse Way (Kindle Locations 645-648). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.
Aphrodite Macbain whispers 8am gotta go
Eliza Madrigal: bye Aph :)
Zen Arado: kk byee Aph
Eliza Madrigal: maybe there is a further distinction between vague and inclusive
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Aph!!
Xirana Oximoxi: buona sera
druth Vlodovic: making space for the listener's wisdom
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: indeed, hosting
Zen Arado: a way to reach our own intuition?
Storm Nordwind: That is indeed how some people approach the I Ching, or anything they use for divination. Others just prefer to be told! :)
Zen Arado: it's hard to bypass that critical brain we have though
Zen Arado: it reduces things to logic
Storm Nordwind: No it's not hard. People do it all the time, or aspire to it at least.
Zen Arado: maybe too much education kills it
Storm Nordwind: Many watch TV to "get out of themselves"
Eliza Madrigal: well it isn't the brain is it... but mind... a kind of mind? so perhaps we can feed that mind less and another more. That's an odd way to think at first I guess
Storm Nordwind: Any good narrative will have the same effect
druth Vlodovic: g2g, have fun guys
Eliza Madrigal: bye Druth :)
Storm Nordwind waves
Xirana Oximoxi: bye druth
Zen Arado: like us on our creative writing course finding it hard to not be logical and relevant
Zen Arado: byee Druth
Zen Arado: yes Eliza
Xirana Oximoxi: I will go too:) take care all:)
Storm Nordwind: I'm rarely either, so maybe it would be less of a challenge for me! ;)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Xiri :)
Storm Nordwind waves
Eliza Madrigal: lol Storm
Zen Arado: byee Xirana :)
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Zen Arado: it's a lot about reaching the specific and personal
Zen Arado: not stereotypes and generalities
Eliza Madrigal nods nods nods
Storm Nordwind: Saying what you actually see instead of what you think you see or should see
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: or what everybody else thinks you should see or think
Storm Nordwind smiles
Eliza Madrigal: or what you 'think' someone else will understand
Storm Nordwind: Argh! make it stop! ;)
Zen Arado: nods
Zen Arado: stops thinking
Storm Nordwind: In the interests of laziness, I find all that far too much effort ;)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: thinking is a bad habit
Zen Arado: :)
Storm Nordwind: Nah. Let the thinking machine think. Just don't think that it's YOU thinking :)
Zen Arado: I think therefore I am not :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Zen Arado: gonna start doing pen portraits of peole in SL
Zen Arado: think I know them well enough?
Eliza Madrigal: guess you will see :) especially if you ask for feedback
Zen Arado: would that work?
Zen Arado: :)
Storm Nordwind: Of their SL avatars. Or their RL avatars?
Zen Arado: hmmm hard to make distinction
Zen Arado: just what I know
Zen Arado: know lots of their RL avs too
Storm Nordwind: Why not try zen portraits instead of pen portraits? :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: nobody would undrstand those :)
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: http://www.101zenstories.com/index.php?story=19
Zen Arado: yes...free from thought
Storm Nordwind: No. Not free from thought. Free from distraction.
Eliza Madrigal: !
Zen Arado: well they do them very quickly
Zen Arado: free from aiming at a result
Zen Arado: like Zen archery
Eliza Madrigal: equanimity as cutting through
Storm Nordwind: Attachment to a result would certainly be a distraction.
Zen Arado: same in freewritng
Eliza Madrigal: though I hear Pema saying something like 'what's to cut through and who would do it' hehe
Eliza Madrigal: so finding your voice, Zen?
Zen Arado: long way from it Eliza
Zen Arado: too much conceptual overlays
Zen Arado: but beginners mind will win through I hope
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: it's an adventure
Zen Arado: main thing
Storm Nordwind: yay
Eliza Madrigal nods... me too, though they aren't sticky... more like options ... as you've said they fall away I suppose
Eliza Madrigal: attachment to options
Storm Nordwind: which would cause missing of opportunities
Eliza Madrigal: which on the surface looks like a kind of freedom but I'm weary of being a hobbyist
Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed Storm
Zen Arado: maybe life is a hobby
Zen Arado: Isaac newton said he was just like a small boy playing with pebbles on a beach
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind: It's a kind of freedom, Eliza, in that it's a shortcut that allows you to save time. But what will you do with the time? ;)
Eliza Madrigal: with my 'one precious life' ? :)
Storm Nordwind: Don't let anyone steal your time, including yourself :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: ok I better go
Eliza Madrigal: that supreme question
Eliza Madrigal nods... it is time
Storm Nordwind: Good to see you both :)
Zen Arado: you too Storm
Eliza Madrigal: Lovely always, bye for now
Zen Arado: and Eliza :)
Zen Arado: byee
Eliza Madrigal runs to pick up her project from the dome