2011.06.30 01:00 - Independence, Anger and Innocence

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino Rabeni, Cosmicflower Ushimawa, FcSeeker Resident, Milakel Resident, Rhiannon Dragoone, Zaldaan Sirnah and myself

Getting up:

FcSeeker Resident: Hello Zen :)
Zen Arado: Hi Fc :)
Zen Arado: how are you?
FcSeeker Resident: I'm o.k.
FcSeeker Resident: how are you ?
Zen Arado: ah ok
Zen Arado: I'm running a bit late this morning
FcSeeker Resident: aha ?
FcSeeker Resident: late of what ?
Zen Arado: I stopped care workers coming about a month ago and I used to get up at 7.30
Zen Arado: but now I can get up when I want to
Zen Arado: so I sleep a bit later
Zen Arado: :)
FcSeeker Resident: smiles
Zen Arado: but I have to get up at 7.30 to be here at 9am
FcSeeker Resident: understand
FcSeeker Resident: there are many things why people need much time to prepare to do something
Zen Arado: yeh
milakel Resident: hi :)
FcSeeker Resident: Hi milakel
milakel Resident: i'll sit here quietly with you :)
Zen Arado: it takes me 1 1/2 hours to have a shower, get dressed and breakfast
Zen Arado: Hi Mila :)
milakel Resident: that's a zen-ish approach to start your day :)
Zen Arado: nah..it's cos I'm so disabled :)
milakel Resident: ah
Zen Arado: takes 1/2 hour to get my clothes on
milakel Resident: still, i lean toward your figure than a 15-min marathone :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: I have a solution to that, Zen
milakel Resident: especially with food. it takes time for me :)
milakel Resident: rhia :)
Zen Arado: Hi Rhia :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Mila
Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Zen
milakel Resident: rhia, doesn't work in all climates :)
Zen Arado: what's that Rhia?
FcSeeker Resident: Hi Rhia
FcSeeker Resident: Hi observerm
Zen Arado: oh I see :)
Zen Arado: I'm slow this morning :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Fc
Zen Arado: yeh too cold here
Rhiannon Dragoone: Fireplaces, Mila. And exercise
Zen Arado: I have my central heating on still and it's middle of summer
Zen Arado: it's 13 C here atm
FcSeeker Resident: that's too little for sure
Zen Arado: it's been a poor summer so far

'The Ethical Slut':

Zen Arado: did you have a class yesterday Rhia?
Zen Arado: I didn't get a notice
Rhiannon Dragoone: I cancelled class today, and my student irl too, as I had a lot of paperwork to do.
Zen Arado: ok
Zen Arado: I had to go to another meeting at 12 SLT anyway
Zen Arado: so many meetings
Zen Arado: I'd love to have a discussion book about a book I am reading
Zen Arado: about a book I mean
Rhiannon Dragoone: 13 degrees is only cold in summer.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, have one.
Zen Arado: yeh true
Zen Arado: it a book called 'The Ethical Slut'
Zen Arado: fascinated by it
FcSeeker Resident: :)
Zen Arado: and repelled a bit too
Zen Arado: it challenges all my ideas
Rhiannon Dragoone: Although I used to work at a club which kept the temp 20 C all year round, and that's cold when you're working naked.
Rhiannon Dragoone: The Ethical Slut?
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: it's been around a while
Rhiannon Dragoone: Um, should I been offended? lol
Zen Arado: not if you read the book :)
Rhiannon Dragoone laughs
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, I've never heard of it; hat's it's thesis/
Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.com/Ethical-Slut-P...9422001&sr=8-1
Zen Arado: it challenges the idea of monogamy for one thing
Rhiannon Dragoone: Polyamory. I've known people who practice that.
Zen Arado: it's easy in SL
Rhiannon Dragoone: Almost hard to avoid it. lol
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: to me it would take a lot of energy
Zen Arado: more partners = more problems
Zen Arado: ?
Zen Arado: but I like to challenge ppl's beliefs I guess
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, it the partners are men, well, yeah.
Zen Arado: and my own of course
Zen Arado: hmmm
Rhiannon Dragoone: Jeepers, what if the women gang up on you? I've been beaten by jealous wives
Zen Arado: was thinking the other way round :)
Zen Arado: ha

Jealousy:

Zen Arado: the key problem...jealousy
Zen Arado: one thing they make clear
Zen Arado: everything has to be open
Zen Arado: no cheating
Zen Arado: the partners should all know each other
Zen Arado: like an extended family
Zen Arado: 'how to have a successful group orgy'
Zen Arado: hmmm
Zen Arado: not sure about that stuff
Zen Arado: have thrown the book away but come back to it
Zen Arado: great chapter on unlearning jealousy
Zen Arado: and I think we all suffer from that
Zen Arado: ?
Rhiannon Dragoone: The only orgies I've been too are me and a bunch of guys. Not exactly what you're talking about.
Zen Arado: well I haven't any practical experience...
Zen Arado: guess it's about sharing love though
Zen Arado: and maybe the more we love and share love the better
FcSeeker Resident: I am very sure of that
Zen Arado: rather than ration it to one person
FcSeeker Resident: but the most common reason that it does not happen is jealousy
Zen Arado: and be possessive
Zen Arado: yes
FcSeeker Resident: my belief is that people feel that only because there is not love enough yet among people
Rhiannon Dragoone: Yes, that's the rub; the orgy I was in, SI was more the entertainment to be passed around,; no jealousy because the roles were well defined. But a group of friends? jealousy could really get in the way.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Fc, yes,, love conquers jealousy.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Jealousy is based in lack of trust.
Zen Arado: there are ways of coping with jealousy
FcSeeker Resident: it comes to be the problem often also for the friendship
FcSeeker Resident: not only in love affairs
Zen Arado: yes
Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, yes, you can be jealous of a friend's paying to much attention to someone else
Zen Arado: we are jealous of ppl's talents
FcSeeker Resident: that is also so much still teached to the children that one may love only one person with full human way
Zen Arado: competitive jealousy
FcSeeker Resident: with that I mean that there is sexual motions also
Zen Arado: yes Fc
Zen Arado: sexual jealousy is a powerful force
FcSeeker Resident: for tens of years I didn't understand why my elder sister was so jealousy to me
Zen Arado: wonder what evolutionary advantage it had?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Zaldaan
FcSeeker Resident: Hello Zaldaan
Zen Arado: Hi Zaldaan :)
Zen Arado: yes Fc?
FcSeeker Resident: then I once sat down and decided to travel back in time and observe all such events she tortured me
FcSeeker Resident: and I realized that it was because I could do things that she couldnt even she was older
Zen Arado: you can't help her with this though?
FcSeeker Resident: so family way dont tell me that it means only good thing
Zen Arado: she has to work with that herself
FcSeeker Resident: well...there was time when she needed my help just a while ago
FcSeeker Resident: I was told about that before hand so I asked help that I can help her then
FcSeeker Resident: even she'd want me to be dead
FcSeeker Resident: but I got help to myself so I could help her
Zen Arado: she didn't want you to help?
Zaldaan Sirnah: hiya
FcSeeker Resident: she does not want help from anybody
FcSeeker Resident: but she did receive some from me, so she does not hate me anymore
FcSeeker Resident: she is one of such people who takes themself to be 'god'
Zen Arado: hmm
Zen Arado: I like to be independent I notice
Zen Arado: wonder if there is a lot of pride in that
Zen Arado: it can be hard to ask for help

Pride and dignity:

Rhiannon Dragoone: Pride would explain it; a wish for dignity as well.
Zen Arado: yeh dignity is a good word
Rhiannon Dragoone: She may simply wantt her dignity, Fc
Zen Arado: I was in hospital this time last year
Zen Arado: not much dignity there
Zen Arado: not if you are disabled as well
Zen Arado: but dignity is still preserving a kind of self image?
Zen Arado: more about deserving to be treated with respect by others ?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, more about your self image.
Zen Arado: we have a right to expect respectful treatment from others I think
Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, yes.
Zen Arado: sometimes I feel like a sack of potatoes when ppl push me around in a wheelchair
Zen Arado: as I tell people :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, i can see that, but the other day, Rosalyn had to go to Wal Mart, and the greeter there asked her if she wanted a wheel chair or one of thos e scooters, and we are grateful for it. It made it easier on her and it was an act of kindngess. We even told the managera bout it
FcSeeker Resident: sorry I got emergency issue in my RL
FcSeeker Resident: brb
Zen Arado: oh yes there are kind helpful people around
Zen Arado: I struggle to reach things on shelves
Zen Arado: keep having to ask ppl to reach me things
Zen Arado: most are happy to do that
Zen Arado: actually it's good to allow ppl to do kind acts
Zen Arado: makes them feel good
Rhiannon Dragoone: So it depends; sometimes,you feel like a sack of potatoes and sometimes you bask in the acts of kindness
Zen Arado: yes :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: It's rough having a disabillity.
Rhiannon Dragoone: And rough on the people around you, as they don't know exactly how to act.
Rhiannon Dragoone: I just treat everyone the same.
Zen Arado: so best to tell them
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, it is
Zen Arado: it can be tiring too
Rhiannon Dragoone: Otherwise, how will they know?
Zaldaan Sirnah: I was in the supermarket and they had those scooters. They had two, and it was late so not many other customers were around, so I asked if I could use one and they said sure.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Of course, it will be tiring.
Zen Arado: if I go to a zen retreat I have to train ppl how what to do
Zaldaan Sirnah: I don't treat them the same... In general I keep an eye out in case someone with a disability needs something. The rare instances when someone is a cranky one don't outweigh the needs of the rest.
Zen Arado: would be so much easier to get the same person
Zen Arado: yes Zal
Zen Arado: a little thought and empathy helps
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, I don't mean the same in that I'd expect a person in a wheelchair to be able to reach a high shelf. That would be ridiculous. I mean I don't see people as in a group membership; I see people as people
Zen Arado: and treating a disabled person as an individual person
Zen Arado: exactly Rhi
Zen Arado: sometimes I just look up at something on a high shelf and someone will ask me if I need something lifted down
Zen Arado: I guess there is applicability to all of us in this
Zen Arado: being receptive to the needs of others
FcSeeker Resident: back
FcSeeker Resident: shall roll the lines
Rhiannon Dragoone: Like here's an example of what I'm talking about. I was watching a PBS show on the history of Black Comedy, and it mentioned the beakthrough show, Amos & Andy, which was suppressed on acoount of people thiking it was racist. And there was an hilarious line in it. I used it in class. Everone recognized it; they had all seen the show. The whites were appaled, but the one black student thought it was hilarious and it broke the ice. All other white people wer walking on eggs around him.
Zen Arado: wb Fc
Zaldaan Sirnah: You know what I don't like.. and yet it's not actually a bad thing..
Rhiannon Dragoone: wb Fc Everything fine?
Zaldaan Sirnah: is when people look at someone with a disability and feel grateful about what they consider their own "well-being"
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, we're all 'disabgled,' as none of us are God
Zaldaan Sirnah: perhaps it's because the person with the disability -- their identity is not limited to "I'm here so you can feel good about yourself"
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, time for me to go get some sleep.
Zen Arado: nite Rhi
Rhiannon Dragoone: nite, Zen
Rhiannon Dragoone: Nite all.
Zen Arado: was going to say I actually remembe that show from the fifties :)
Zaldaan Sirnah: In fact, I sometimes study disability, not to directly relate it to illness, as an indicator of the shame of the state of mankind's progress
Rhiannon Dragoone: Really?
Rhiannon Dragoone: you actually saw it?
Zen Arado: yeh was on British TV then
Zen Arado: when I was a kid
Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, the line, in case you're interested was "This here's the atom. And the atom is broken into the monocle. Ahd the monocle is broken into protons, neutrons, fig newtons, and morons."
Zaldaan Sirnah: illness and material problems are motivators for the development of human comprehensiveness
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: remembers the line OOOOOOh Andy
Zen Arado: :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, nighty-nite, everyone.
Zen Arado: nite
Zen Arado: yes Zal
Zen Arado: but we are improving I guess
Zen Arado: I remember how bad it ws when I was young
FcSeeker Resident: read the lines
FcSeeker Resident: well Zen; is it good thing then if she just wants to keep her independency and tortures other people for that ?
FcSeeker Resident: anyways imo she only wanted to enjoy to torture me, so I cannot connect that with the will to be independent
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: it's complex the way people act
FcSeeker Resident: she may learn when she stepes foreward from this her incarnation
FcSeeker Resident: at least I wish so

Anger:

Zen Arado: anger gives us a sesnse of power if we feel inadequate
Zen Arado: but is destructive to others and oueselves
FcSeeker Resident: well...to me such power is illusion
Zen Arado: yes
FcSeeker Resident: anger gives only anger to one who feels it and to whom he/she tries to throwe it on
FcSeeker Resident: but we have an option to shelter us from such
FcSeeker Resident: and help peole to throw out their anger
Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
FcSeeker Resident: Hello Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Hello, what's happening?
Zen Arado: just chatting about jealousy and anger and stuff
Calvino Rabeni: juicy stuff :)
Zen Arado: and about being independent or asking for help
Zen Arado: wondering why I hate asking for help
--BELL--
Zen Arado: pride, vanity, self image or dignity?
Zaldaan Sirnah: yeah, what IS anger?
Calvino Rabeni: it is a way people in social relationships signal each other to be decisive
FcSeeker Resident: anger is the child of sorrows
Zen Arado: I get angry when I don't accept things the way they are
FcSeeker Resident: it comes when one has not had time to handle own sorrows enough
Zen Arado: I want them to be the way I want them to be
Calvino Rabeni: Sorrows often underly anger, I agree
Calvino Rabeni: *underlie, lie under
Zen Arado: I get angry at fate more than at people
milakel Resident: cal :)
Zen Arado: people only act from their experience and conditioning and so on anyway
milakel Resident: that's a nice long session :)
Calvino Rabeni: when innocence is lost, anger soon arrives
Zen Arado: is innocence to be desired?
Calvino Rabeni: it is a natural state, basic goodness
Calvino Rabeni: so ues
Calvino Rabeni: *yes
Zen Arado: ah ok if yu put it like that
Calvino Rabeni: One thinking of it, may remember times when it was lost, that happened early in life
Calvino Rabeni: And were accompanied by great sorrow
Zaldaan Sirnah: Fate keeps proving to me that it's full of blessing, but yet, seemingly from my own doing, I cannot trust the future of it.
Zen Arado: we lose our innocence when ppl hurt us
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, even more when we hurt others
Zaldaan Sirnah: anger (from merriam webster). 1 a strong feeling of displeasure and usually of antagonism
Zaldaan Sirnah: antagonism: 1 opposition in physiological action; especially : interaction of two or more substances such that the action of any one of them on living cells or tissues is lessened
Zen Arado: don't think we can trust fate
FcSeeker Resident: a story from my RL calls me to share it....
Zen Arado: sure Fc
Zaldaan Sirnah: 2 a. opposition of a conflicting force, tendency, or principle
Calvino Rabeni: or trust dictionaries to be written by insightful people
Zen Arado: yes :)
Calvino Rabeni: Your story FC?
FcSeeker Resident: that's from the funeral of my uncels wife
FcSeeker Resident: maybe it needs a bit back round telling
FcSeeker Resident: my cousins do understand me to be real and realistic
Zaldaan Sirnah: going by definition 1, I am considering that anger, usually with feelings of antagonism, decreases LIVING interaction
FcSeeker Resident: but noone of their wifes
FcSeeker Resident: there was also much people present who I didn't know
FcSeeker Resident: the dead one's name is Margit
FcSeeker Resident: Margit didn't leave me in peace before I promised to tell her message to her sons ...and sure at the same time to all who was present
FcSeeker Resident: so I didn't see any other choice but to do what she asked
FcSeeker Resident: so I went to stand beside the preast (our family religion is christianity)
FcSeeker Resident: then I said that I just couldn't do otherwise but to come and bring Margit's message
--BELL--
FcSeeker Resident: because Margit had teached very hardly to her sons that they are sinners and they must learn to not to do sin, which she took to be many just natural things for human to do
FcSeeker Resident: she wanted now when she had been born to all new and beauty and to see the truth
FcSeeker Resident: that her sons could find their innocence already in their earthly life
FcSeeker Resident: because that is true that all human kind beings are innnocent
FcSeeker Resident: the priest shared all with me and supported me strongly
FcSeeker Resident: all others got red face, but my dearist cousin came to me after and asked me to speak more
FcSeeker Resident: end of the sotry
FcSeeker Resident: story
Zen Arado: ty Fc :)
Calvino Rabeni: thanks, Fc
Zen Arado: I used to read old protestant purist preachers who said that we are all rotten sinners
Zen Arado: only salvation by grace could save us
Zen Arado: prefer Buddhis ideas
Zen Arado: our true self is innocent
FcSeeker Resident: save us from what ?
Zen Arado: for hellfire :)
Zen Arado: from*
Calvino Rabeni: I'm trying to remember a zen book title, something like "how to live in a muddy pond"
FcSeeker Resident: I beleive that as long as we are human being (or even this kind of panda), nothing saves us from hell fire completely
Zen Arado: hellfire and brimstone preachers
FcSeeker Resident: but I also take also the hellfire to be the teacher to teach us what we came here to learn
Zen Arado: yeh like a lotus Cal
Zen Arado: well
Zen Arado: I have to go
FcSeeker Resident: enjoy your time Zen
Zen Arado: ty for coming
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: byeee
Calvino Rabeni: Good to see you Zen
Calvino Rabeni: Take care
Calvino Rabeni: So the hellfire is a teacher
FcSeeker Resident: imo
Calvino Rabeni: yes, same with any illness or affliction
FcSeeker Resident: I am aware also of the hell to be an option to which spirit goes after our called death, but why and when that happens, I do not know any certain reason, because I've helped so many such people also beyond to continue their way, who have done suiside
FcSeeker Resident: and have helped beautiful spirits also because they have been scared to continue
FcSeeker Resident: so I have come to the conclution that hell is mostly here on Earth
FcSeeker Resident: that this knowledge of innnocence comes to most of the spirits when so called dies
Calvino Rabeni: Remembering again?
FcSeeker Resident: that people can create the hell to other people and also to one's self....why....for that I know so much so called reasons that people feel themself to have, that would be impossible to write so much to chat for anybody to read
Calvino Rabeni: Like the story that people come here, forget more and more, until they die, whereupon they may remember again
FcSeeker Resident: all do not remember immediately after dead
FcSeeker Resident: that depends of as many things than when you are born to human world
FcSeeker Resident: I see no difference of either birth
FcSeeker Resident: but by 'time' there comes the remembering all after your dead
FcSeeker Resident: also many people do open their memory during human life
--BELL--
FcSeeker Resident: many people call that to be enlightened
milakel Resident: poof, zen left
FcSeeker Resident: Hello Cosmicflower
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi ***<3<3<3***
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: smiling
Calvino Rabeni: Hello ***<3<3<3***
--BELL--
milakel Resident: cosmic :)
milakel Resident: haven't seen you in a long time. or so it seems :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Its a long time , yes ;)
milakel Resident: been traveling? :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nah
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: busy with life
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and work
FcSeeker Resident: I sadly must log out
FcSeeker Resident: takes humble bow
milakel Resident: :)
FcSeeker Resident: namaste all
milakel Resident: baby panda :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Namaste
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how have you been? all
Calvino Rabeni: I've been well thanks
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its good
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Mila?
milakel Resident: ah, sorry. i'm a bit preoccupied, but enjoy being here :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, but its possible to be at many places at the same time, smiling wide
milakel Resident: i'm ok... except one upset belly :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: upset belly.. hmmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have enjoyed yesterday and today about sun in Finland
milakel Resident: ah, lovely
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we have so little truely warm days (plus 28 celsius)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: can be calculated in two hands
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so ,
milakel Resident: yes, 28 is very warm for suomi
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this have been rare delicasy
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yeap
milakel Resident: well, i prefer 20 :)
--BELL--
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Where are You from Mila?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I started to think You are also from here ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ??
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
milakel Resident: not quite :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not?
milakel Resident: i've been to helsinki though
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ok
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, I think I go back to backyard to enjoy the sun
Calvino Rabeni must fade out too
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: good bye all
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Byeee