The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

Bruce Mowbray and Hokon Cazalet joined me followed by iwandertoo Resident in text chat mode. Bleu Oleander and Paradise Tennant

Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Hokon.
Hokon Cazalet: hiya
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, steve.
stevenaia Michinaga: nice hat
Bruce Mowbray: ty!
Hokon Cazalet: yup =)

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: did the bell ring?
Hokon Cazalet: i heard it
Hokon Cazalet: but the fountain didn't do its fog effect
Bruce Mowbray: I also heard it.
stevenaia Michinaga: usually also shows up in the text chat and I didn;t see it
stevenaia Michinaga: stange
stevenaia Michinaga: strange
Hokon Cazalet: yeah i didn't see it in text chat either
Bruce Mowbray: top of the hour?
Hokon Cazalet: maybe
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Bruce Mowbray: different from quarter hours?
stevenaia Michinaga: awww perhaps
stevenaia Michinaga: lowering the fountain... bringing in the lawn
Bruce Mowbray: great -- ty!
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Hokon Cazalet: !
Hokon Cazalet: I've never seen the fountain do that before
stevenaia Michinaga: for smaller groups
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Hokon Cazalet: =)
stevenaia Michinaga: but you can't grow grass for smaller groups
stevenaia Michinaga: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: AHH!!!!
Hokon Cazalet: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: cold , huh
Hokon Cazalet splashes the water
Hokon Cazalet: aw its gone
stevenaia Michinaga: seems i was levitating again
Bruce Mowbray: only a few feet, steve.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, still felt like part of the group that way
stevenaia Michinaga: does anyone have a topic?
Hokon Cazalet: i dont, more just chilling, in a listen mode tonight
stevenaia Michinaga: ( do if not)
Bruce Mowbray: It is passed my bedtime, but I was reading through the chat logs today - and especially enjoyed those from this session. . . so decided to stay awake and come to it.
Bruce Mowbray would love to hear steve's topic.
stevenaia Michinaga: hehe, my topic has to do with your profile and "Favorite Philosopher is Edmund Husserl "
Bruce Mowbray: past my bedtime*
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: he seems to be Pema's too, maybe not favorite but certainly of of import
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Bruce Mowbray ponders all those brackets. [] [] []
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: and since I never heard of him until I go here, I have begun reading now that I have acquired some idea of what he was talking about from a poit of making sense to me
stevenaia Michinaga: *point
Hokon Cazalet: cool =) i bought a two volume set of his first major works recently, having fun with them
stevenaia Michinaga: ....listens
stevenaia Michinaga: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: and PaB is a good spot to hear new ideas
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I don;t normally go near poetry, philosophy, eastern religions... now I feel they are on me like peanut butter
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: as a kid and in high school i thought philosophy was stupid
Bruce Mowbray licks arm -- tastes like - - PEANUT BUTTER!
Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
Hokon Cazalet salivates looking at Bruce's arm
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, exactly, once you have peanut butter on your fingers you can't help but consume it (ingest it)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Hokon Cazalet: yeah since my first philosophy class, introduction to ethics, i got addicted
stevenaia Michinaga: PaB as peanut butter.. a title has formed
Hokon Cazalet: lol
Bruce Mowbray: the crunchy variety, I presume?
stevenaia Michinaga: no, very smooth
Hokon Cazalet: i prefer creamy
Hokon Cazalet: like Jif
Bruce Mowbray: OK. Creamy it is.
Hokon Cazalet now has an impulse to buy jars of peanut butter
Bruce Mowbray: So, you were saying about Husserl, steve?

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: just recently for no reason I can fathum, other than reading Hokon's profile and what I have been previously exposed to at the phenomenology workshop we had here a few years ago... I think I only attended 2 sessions, started reading about it, it started making sense
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Hokon Cazalet: when i read my first husserl article i was like "wow, this makes sense" as well
stevenaia Michinaga: went places (web pages) I would not normally go
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Bruce Mowbray would love to hear more about this "sense" ----
Hokon Cazalet: me too
Bruce Mowbray listens intently.
stevenaia Michinaga: well it seemed understandable to me, perhaps not yet, but as I read more, like a book you are not ready to put down
Hokon Cazalet: =)
stevenaia Michinaga: and believe me I have put down many books
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
stevenaia Michinaga: the the two volumes you just picked up... a light read are they?
Hokon Cazalet: the beginning of it is so far, although it seems husserl assumes the reader has some acquaintance with trends in late 19th century philosophy
stevenaia Michinaga: rut row
Hokon Cazalet: ?
Bruce Mowbray: Heideggar?
Hokon Cazalet: no
stevenaia Michinaga: can;t say I am (yet)
Bruce Mowbray: ?
Hokon Cazalet: before him, psychologism, thats the major one,
stevenaia Michinaga: can't say I am familiar with rends in late 19th century philosophy
Bruce Mowbray: ok, ty.
Hokon Cazalet: the attempt to reduce logic to psychology, and also treat logic as a "technology" not as a theoretical discipline
Bruce Mowbray: like William James. . .
Hokon Cazalet: not sure if he was into psychologism, i should probably check though
stevenaia Michinaga: hopeing to absorb all that from you two :)
Bruce Mowbray: me neither. . .
Bruce Mowbray: although I think he was an exploratory psychologist, of sorts.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Hokon Cazalet: the main thing he talks about is "psychologism", he was once an advocate of it, but isn't anymore and the introduction to the books (Logical Investigations, 1900/1901) aims to explain why its false
Hokon Cazalet: yup =)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, steve, the emphasis seems to be on the subjective -- as differing from the "objective" viewpoint.
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Bruce Mowbray: So it is the internal stuff (material0 of the observer that counts ---
Hokon Cazalet: in phenomenology? yeah
Bruce Mowbray: yeah -- and where do "other minds" come in?
Hokon Cazalet: that was a problem Husserl had for a while, many claimed his phenomenology discounted that, and landed one in the absurd position of solipsism (only i exist); husserl tried to argue phenomenology didn't lead to that
Bruce Mowbray: Seems to me that phenomenology requires a lot of trusting -- that others have minds, as i do (supposedly).
Bruce Mowbray: phenomenology*
Hokon Cazalet: well initially no, as the external world's existence is ignored; the focus is how others appear before me, you wouldn't assume it (though how he argues for the existence of other minds in a later book i found underwheling)
Bruce Mowbray: and also trust from your side -- of my mind.
Hokon Cazalet: Husserl tried to do an approach of finding the essential structures of any potential consciousness, thus it was universal like math or logic
Hokon Cazalet: did he succeed, is another question
Bruce Mowbray: "essential structure" of minds.....
Bruce Mowbray: (?)
Bruce Mowbray: hardwired?
Bruce Mowbray: or like Jungian archetypes?
Hokon Cazalet: structures that have to be there in order for consciousness to exist at all (not hardwired, more like: if we have a circle, an essential aspect of a circle is it has a circumference)
Hokon Cazalet: no not like that
Hokon Cazalet: husserl was trying to avoid what is hardwired into humans, he felt that would lead to a form of relativism with logic (one argument he makes against psychologism, and in favor of phenomenology)
Bruce Mowbray: what is the basis of "essential" then? - If not hardwired or archetypal?
Hokon Cazalet: i.e. if structure X is instinctual for man, and we base logic on this, yet other species lack this structure, logic then becomes relative per species

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Susan
Hokon Cazalet: sort of necessary pre-conditions for consciousness to exist at all in any being, for example, for myself to have an experience of change (time), there must be an enduring self through the change in sensations, otherwise "I" would never have the perception
Hokon Cazalet: hi Susan =)
Bruce Mowbray: Howdy do, Susan!
Hokon Cazalet: ok
stevenaia Michinaga: cool
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: very cool. . . (has never had a cell phone!)
Hokon Cazalet: (btw that style of argument isn't how Husserl did stuff, thats what a philosopher a century before did; the idea is similar though)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bleu!
Hokon Cazalet: hi bleu =)
Bleu Oleander: hi all
Bruce Mowbray: Do YOU experience an "essence," Hokon?
Bruce Mowbray: experience*
Hokon Cazalet: or, if i take three apples and add two more apples, i now have five; we can remove the qualities like redness, foodness, etc, and find the essential relation: 3x+2x=5x, or 3+2=5
Hokon Cazalet: not sure
stevenaia Michinaga: essence?
stevenaia Michinaga: Bruce
Hokon Cazalet: (typo for essence i think)
Bruce Mowbray: essence . . . sry.
Bruce Mowbray is slapping face to stay awake. . .
Hokon Cazalet: i would rather say i experience objects, and think about essences (or try to =P)
Hokon Cazalet: but, thats me
stevenaia Michinaga: hehe, I thought it as a simple question for evening, with the tires Bruce and the quiet Hokon are chatting up a storm
stevenaia Michinaga: *tired
Bruce Mowbray: So, you have a subjective experience of "objects."
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: well my subjectivity experiences objectivities: i as a subject have experiences about objects
Bruce Mowbray doesn't feel too stormy tonight, actually.
Hokon Cazalet: aw
stevenaia Michinaga: he is somewhere online
stevenaia Michinaga: (Storm)
Bruce Mowbray: and wasn't it Hokon who said she'd be listening - - - tonight (and I thought, ME TOO to that. . . ) and here we are talking about usserl like there is no tomorrow!
Hokon Cazalet: a key concept in phenomenology (this was crucial for Husserl, hiedegger though seemed to downplay it) was the notion that consciousness is always about something, i.e. is "intentional"
Hokon Cazalet: lol
Hokon Cazalet: yup Bruce
Hokon Cazalet slaps herself
Bruce Mowbray listens (for a change!)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: I listen
Hokon Cazalet goes into listening mode too
Bleu Oleander listens too
Bruce Mowbray: fascinating idea -- Consciousness is always about something...
Bruce Mowbray: being conscious "about" of "of" something. . . indeed.
Bruce Mowbray: or "of" something*
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Hokon Cazalet: yup, not husserl's idea (actually its a concept from medieval philosophy), but he brought it back to the attention of modern thinkers
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Bruce Mowbray: except -- and I might be crazy here -- I seem to have "consciousness" of nothing, sometimes.
Hokon Cazalet: is it about nothing, or is it a sort of pure consciousness?
Bruce Mowbray: is that "nothing" a "something," also?
stevenaia Michinaga: so consciousness is just the carrier, like time is,
Bruce Mowbray: the carrier of "nothing"?
Hokon Cazalet: yeah it ends up that way stevenaia, heidegger put it in practical terms, that we are always projected into the world, absorbed in it's activates
Hokon Cazalet: I can think about nothing, and consciousness still have it's aboutness, like the number zero
Hokon Cazalet: yup
stevenaia Michinaga: let me see if I can move Susan closer , hehe
Hokon Cazalet: =)
iwandertoo Resident: haha
Bruce Mowbray: but experientially, Hokon, I can "empty" my mind of thoughts --- ooops.
Hokon Cazalet: well you still look at objects
Bruce Mowbray: My camera just scooted out into the bushes.
Bleu Oleander: funny steve :)
Hokon Cazalet: eep! o.O
Bruce Mowbray: Emptying is really big with me right now, sry.
Hokon Cazalet: you can have experience with content without engaging that "voice" in our minds
Hokon Cazalet: no its cool =)
Hokon Cazalet: in some ways i do agree, i think you can have consciousness that isn't about anything
iwandertoo Resident: unconscious
Hokon Cazalet: just a sort of blind or pure consciousness (odd that paradox, blind & pure)
iwandertoo Resident: subconscious
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps I am imagining some fantasy here, but I also feel that if I allow them to (not holding on to the,) thoughts will empty themselves. . .
Bruce Mowbray: I don't have to do it.
iwandertoo Resident: nods...blind & pure
stevenaia Michinaga: there, almost like she's here now :)

--BELL--

Hokon Cazalet: well the voice in your mind can be gone and your consciousness is still about things: im quite sure mice lack language, but they are sentient beings
Bruce Mowbray thinks that for someone only on text, Susan is quite stunning tonight.
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Bruce Mowbray: too bad she can't see herself.
iwandertoo Resident: uhm
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, fun to move around too
iwandertoo Resident: stevenaia?
stevenaia Michinaga: I pushed you into the playgota, you were out by the marker
iwandertoo Resident: lol
iwandertoo Resident: waves
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: poof!
stevenaia Michinaga: must have pushed her offlike
Hokon Cazalet: !
Hokon Cazalet: aw
stevenaia Michinaga: offline
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Para!
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Paradise
Bleu Oleander: hi Paradise
stevenaia Michinaga: when am on text only chat on my phone, I appear as a cloud
Paradise Tennant: smiles hiya Steve Bruce Bleu Hokon :))
stevenaia Michinaga: like paradise is to me tonight
Hokon Cazalet: hi paradise =)
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, Para is a bit misty.
Bruce Mowbray: (like my thinking about Husserl).
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: There she is!
stevenaia Michinaga: yeh, welcome Paradise
Paradise Tennant: smiles thank you good to see everyone :) what was the topic tonight ?
Bruce Mowbray: oh dear....
stevenaia Michinaga: peanut butter and phenomenology
Hokon Cazalet: yummies
Bleu Oleander: trying to figure it out also :)
Bruce Mowbray: you may lick my arm at any time, Para.
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: [19:11] stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I don;t normally go near poetry, philosophy, eastern religions... now I feel they are on me like peanut butter [19:11] Hokon Cazalet: hehe [19:12] Hokon Cazalet: as a kid and in high school i thought philosophy was stupid [19:12] Bruce Mowbray licks arm -- tastes like - - PEANUT BUTTER! [19:12] Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy! [19:12] Hokon Cazalet salivates looking at Bruce's arm
Bruce Mowbray: (for late arrivers).
Paradise Tennant: lol
Bleu Oleander: â–’â–‘â–‘ hehe :)
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Hokon Cazalet: i have to buy Jif peanut butter jars now, and eat with a spoon
Bleu Oleander: chunky?
Paradise Tennant: my dog's favorite :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I was trying to describe how new topics I picked up here tend to lol
Bruce Mowbray: so, this peanut butter tastiness of my arm (or whatever) -- that is an object of consciousness. . . and, then . . . (waits). . .
Bruce Mowbray: object*
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: and then i engage a new type of consciousness, an active one, with a goal in mind . . . of eating you!
Hokon Cazalet: MWHAHAHA!!!
Bruce Mowbray: How do we objectify something like taste?
Paradise Tennant: smiles at hokon :)
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Bruce Mowbray: or pain, or empathy, or. . .
Hokon Cazalet: im not sure Bruce, it isn't an object in the normal sense, probably better to say its part of the object, or where we focus on
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Hokon Cazalet: but i dunno, im not sure how emotions and feelings fit in, nor have i seen husserl speak on it (so cant say his view)
Hokon Cazalet: heidegger thought some emotional states, like fear or anxiety, were ontological states, exposed something fundamental about our Being-in-the-world
Hokon Cazalet: (well maybe not ontological, but on that area . . .)
Hokon Cazalet: like for example, when we fear something say a thing in the dark, its presence isn't fully given, but we have a hint of it, and we expect something horrible could arise from that hidden thing
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that empathy exposes something fundamental about my being in the world.
Hokon Cazalet: so fear isn't based on mere sense-data, but is a general disposition to things
Hokon Cazalet: id agree Bruce =)
Bleu Oleander: emotions are complex mostly automated programs of actions
Hokon Cazalet: i find empathy to be more revealing than anxiety is, personally (so I'm not an existentialist i guess hehe)
Bleu Oleander: feelings are when we become conscious of emotions
Bruce Mowbray: I am here tonight (at this session) because I was so moved my reading chat logs from this time slot (empathetically moved) that I decided to check it out for myself. . .
Hokon Cazalet: i dont agree emotions are automated, i can provoke emotions in myself
Paradise Tennant: smiles at Bruce :)
Hokon Cazalet: maybe im weird but
Hokon Cazalet: hehe Bruce =)
Bruce Mowbray listens intently and empathetically (sry...) but it's true.
Bleu Oleander: sure emotions are provoked

--BELL--

Hokon Cazalet: well if i can cause myself to have an emotion, it isn't fully automatic then, i have choice over it; not mere reflex or instinct
stevenaia Michinaga: I;m glad you came Bruce, for whatever the reason
Hokon Cazalet: me too stevenaia
Hokon Cazalet: oo coffee
Bleu Oleander: the set of actions in response to you causing your emotions are mostly automated
Hokon Cazalet: well thats kind of nothing special about humans, any physical system is determined by its past, even intellectual thought is that way
Hokon Cazalet: emotions aren't special in that regard
Bruce Mowbray: (If anyone wants coffee, please let me know.)
Hokon Cazalet: in general free will violates the basic conservation laws of physics, so i tend to not really think about it much anymore
Paradise Tennant: blinking hokon could you say more
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: well like momentum, any act that occurs has to conserve momentum, you cant have an object willy nilly do something (except at the quantum level, but those events are random and dont violate the law anyway); so where is free will?
Hokon Cazalet: our brain would follow the laws of physics with mechanical necessity like any other physical system
Hokon Cazalet: presuming we dont have a soul
Paradise Tennant: so there is no free will
Hokon Cazalet: so, when i hear comments about neurology showing us X about our freedom, its nothing special, its a by-product of viewing the world as a natural and mechanical system
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps in micro-events (like neurons firing) there's no free will - - but in macro events, like whether I take another sip of coffee right now, it seems that I have a choice that is not determined.
Hokon Cazalet: if physics is true and we are completely bound by physics as we grasp them; i dont see how free will could exist
Hokon Cazalet: actually macro-events are more determined, thats the domain of Newtonian physics
Hokon Cazalet: only at the very tiny can you have deviations from determinism
Bruce Mowbray: so choice and responsibility go out the window?
Hokon Cazalet: so to me, saying emotions are automatic, i go "and?", cuz if science can fully explain man in physical terms, we are autonomotons anyways
Hokon Cazalet: i dunno
Hokon Cazalet: well choice wouldn't, it just isn't wholly free
Hokon Cazalet: we judge things to be good vs bad, but
Hokon Cazalet: i dunno, i tend to avoid this topic cuz I think its fraught with a lot of confusions (imo), i also think one can have ethics without free will
Hokon Cazalet: but i dont see how, if we are mere products of our brain, and emotions and other mental phenomena lack freedom, where this magical ability to be free would arise
Bruce Mowbray: OK, but what would Husserl say about this -- and what do you own experiences say about it?
Bruce Mowbray: your own*
Hokon Cazalet: I dont know about his views on free will, so cant comment there
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that I have a degree of free will -- Is that just an illusion?
Hokon Cazalet: my own experience says i am free, but i could be deluded
Hokon Cazalet: i doubt it is an illusion, my guess is we are conceptualizing things wrongly
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm... Then you could also be deluded if you experience tells you that you are determined.
Hokon Cazalet: i dunno where though
Bruce Mowbray: (no?)
Hokon Cazalet: that could be a delusion too, though natural science has a lot of strength behind it
Bruce Mowbray: What to trust, then?
Paradise Tennant: or the physicists have not got it right yet ? maybe not stitched together a final understanding of the physical world :)
Bruce Mowbray: For me, this is where faith and belief begin to separate.
Hokon Cazalet: well we wont ever have a complete picture, but id agree with you paradise, we dont even know how the brain produces consciousness yet so
Hokon Cazalet: we only "know" other people have minds based on analogy or their testimony
Paradise Tennant: well usually we find that someone proves something only to have someone born 50 years later prove it wrong and then find .. 60 years later etc
Bruce Mowbray: so, back to the subjective . . . (and back to phenomenology).
Hokon Cazalet: well my guess is the mechanistic model of the natural science isn't absolute (i.e. not metaphysical)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe i tend to think of freedom in subjective terms, to avoid that whole debate
stevenaia Michinaga: :)

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: and on that note I must go to be
Hokon Cazalet: aw byebyes
Bruce Mowbray: and I must go to bed, also.
Paradise Tennant: good nite stev ..sweet dreams :)) thanks :)
Bruce Mowbray: Goodnight sweet princesses - etc etc.
Paradise Tennant: nite nite Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: and thanks for this intriguing discussion.
stevenaia Michinaga: night, nice session, thank you all for joining me
Hokon Cazalet: bye bruce =) sorry i kinda rambled, and i said i was gonna be in listen mode
stevenaia Michinaga: hehe, I know you did
stevenaia Michinaga: didn;t that coming did ya
Bruce Mowbray: Nop, Hokon -- you were great!
Paradise Tennant: smiles actually hokon thought you made some really interesting points :)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe ty
Paradise Tennant: which I am going to enjoy rereading :)
Hokon Cazalet: it is funny though, i dont know myself too well :Þ
Bruce Mowbray: We need your viewpoint expressed and you did it very well. so thanks you!
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Hokon Cazalet: yeah we need all of them expressed, if we wanna get anywhere
Bleu Oleander: take care all :)
stevenaia Michinaga: night bleu
Paradise Tennant: sweet dreams all ..namaste my friends :)
Hokon Cazalet: bye bleu =)