2011.06.27 19:00 - Issues of Privacy

The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia. This session was attended by several people who had not been in the pavilion for a while. Doug (disappeared after a few minutes), Zaldaan Sirnah, Vajra Raymaker, Mila tested the recorder and left, Stevenaia, Susan, and myself (who left early). The session was mainly about issues of privacy and use of information obtained by the logs. The log was sent to me by the recorder.

doug Sosa: long time, months forgotten what to do :)
doug Sosa: so hello

--BELL--

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi doug hi Zaldaan :)
doug Sosa: yes, hello.
SophiaSharon Larnia: I haven't seen you for a while, nice to see you
doug Sosa: thanks. been many months
Zaldaan Sirnah: hi :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Zaldaan, nice to see you too
Zaldaan Sirnah: doug
doug Sosa: :)
Zaldaan Sirnah: Sophia               
SophiaSharon Larnia: actually nice to be here too, I haven't logged in SL for a week :)      (Doug disappears)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Observerm
SophiaSharon Larnia: brb, sorry :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Mila :)
milakel Resident: hi :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: how are you?
milakel Resident: i missed you, neko girl :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: you did? aww
SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks
SophiaSharon Larnia is surprised anyone noticed
milakel Resident: :)
milakel Resident: well, i'm not for long
milakel Resident: just to check if recording is working fine
SophiaSharon Larnia: not here for long? ohh
milakel Resident: are you the guardian?
SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks for doing that Mila..... yes
milakel Resident: the server was down for some time and is back now
SophiaSharon Larnia: although I dont feel well tonight and was going to beg someone who was here
SophiaSharon Larnia: to pass out the cookies
milakel Resident: aww
milakel Resident: well, i'm really should go, i'm sorry :(
SophiaSharon Larnia: <3 bye
Zaldaan Sirnah: Bye Mila
milakel Resident: i hope you're feeling well soon
SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks
milakel Resident: don't get ill, neko girl :)
milakel Resident: bye :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: have you been coming to sessions recently Zaldaan?

--BELL--

SophiaSharon Larnia: I havent seen you for a long time either
Zaldaan Sirnah: A few times the past couple weeks -- it's been a half a year or more since I was here last.
Zaldaan Sirnah: in SL
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Vajra
Vajra Raymaker: Hi : )
Vajra Raymaker: Hi Zaldaan and observerm
SophiaSharon Larnia: nice to see you, your not new to play as being are you? I've seen you before?
Vajra Raymaker: I've been here before, Sophia
Vajra Raymaker: Not in awhile
SophiaSharon Larnia: great :)
Vajra Raymaker: I never did learn what it was all about :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: welcome back
Vajra Raymaker: ty!
Vajra Raymaker: nice photo with the balloons
SophiaSharon Larnia: the information stand will give you a notecard description
SophiaSharon Larnia: and the website here is http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, those pictures were from Play as Being's 3 year anniversay party in April
Vajra Raymaker: ah :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Stevenaia
SophiaSharon Larnia: nice to see you
Vajra Raymaker: Hi Sevenaia
SophiaSharon Larnia: and I love your well-ventilated dress
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Sophia, Vajra, it's been a while
stevenaia Michinaga: yes thank you, it's been warm here lately
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes and doug was here for a few minutes at 7
Vajra Raymaker: yes :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: was wondering what was going on :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Zaldmaan, gtsy again
stevenaia Michinaga: sees snow over observerm
Vajra Raymaker: I thought maybe it was radioactive rain
SophiaSharon Larnia: no topic yet Steve
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes I wondered who put it there, maybe it was for Sun?
SophiaSharon Larnia: since its winter in Africa?
SophiaSharon Larnia: or nostalgia due to the heat?
Vajra Raymaker: is it hot where you are, Sophia?
SophiaSharon Larnia: i am PA, its summer and humid, not the worst its been today
SophiaSharon Larnia: I am in*
stevenaia Michinaga: 71 here and going to get warmer
SophiaSharon Larnia: huh?
Vajra Raymaker: warmth is nice
stevenaia Michinaga: this week
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh wow
Vajra Raymaker: I thought that it rained a lot and was colder than usual on the west coast of NA after the earthquake in Japan
stevenaia Michinaga: we are on the east coast
Vajra Raymaker: I have wondered whether the huge amount of deep water that was displaced had anything to do with it
SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
Vajra Raymaker: But I haven't seen anyone mention such a thing anywhere
SophiaSharon Larnia: where are you Vajra?
Vajra Raymaker: Sometimes in Vancouver, sometimes in the San Francisco area
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) thanks
Vajra Raymaker: why thanks?
SophiaSharon Larnia: for answering the question, i guess, automatic response

--BELL--

Vajra Raymaker: Do any of you frequent other places on SL besides Kira and Pab?
SophiaSharon Larnia: I would love to answer that in the positive but not lately Vajra, I havent had much inclination for SL
stevenaia Michinaga: I have friends on other islands, lecture places, music venues
SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm not myself tonight because I'm so tired, Steve, would you pass out the cookies if needed for the rest of the hour??
SophiaSharon Larnia: I claimed the log
stevenaia Michinaga: sure Sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks, goodnight all
stevenaia Michinaga: I am uploading a large file so there may be a log
Vajra Raymaker: night Sophia
stevenaia Michinaga: night SOphia
SophiaSharon Larnia: now Im curious, sorry
SophiaSharon Larnia: youre uploading what?
stevenaia Michinaga: lol, if I told you 200 MB of buidling codes, would you go to sleep?
SophiaSharon Larnia: ok now nite nite
SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
stevenaia Michinaga: laughs
SophiaSharon Larnia: b4n
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Roger
Roger Ormenthal: Very sorry if I stepped on someone - big lag and no motor control.
Vajra Raymaker: :) probably didn't hurt, Roger
stevenaia Michinaga: no problem Roger, take your time
stevenaia Michinaga: one step at a time
stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to make your way over here, we are quit spread out tonight
Vajra Raymaker: oberverm, how come you're not saying anything? Are you observing? But does observing keep one from participating?
stevenaia Michinaga: he waves periodically :) feel free t have a seat with us
stevenaia Michinaga: he observes quite a bit lately
stevenaia Michinaga: hi susan
Vajra Raymaker: whoops, observerm walked away. Does he never talk?
iwandertoo Resident: waves
Vajra Raymaker: Hi iwander
stevenaia Michinaga: only when he waves, will sometimes spend hours with us sometimes seated, usually behing a shrub
Vajra Raymaker: I suppose I should be gentle and open in case this person needs that; however, I can't help but be suspicious that the person is actually attempting to do science
Vajra Raymaker: On the basis of what do I draw that conclusion?
Vajra Raymaker: Would be a lot to type
stevenaia Michinaga: science being bad? not sure what you mean
Vajra Raymaker: yes, doing science on me is bad :)
Vajra Raymaker: unethical
Vajra Raymaker: would fail a review of the research ethics board
iwandertoo Resident: how so?
stevenaia Michinaga: :), he comes and listens, I suspect if science is being dne, it would be more convenient to use the logs
Vajra Raymaker: subjects should be informed that they are being experimentex on
Vajra Raymaker: experimented
iwandertoo Resident: how is he experimenting on you?
stevenaia Michinaga: is observation an experiment?
Vajra Raymaker: no I would say that observation alone is not an experiment
stevenaia Michinaga: I oftem listen, but for my education
stevenaia Michinaga: experiment on me in a way.. opening my mind

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: you do know you are being recorded vajra? AND posted to the Wiki
Vajra Raymaker: I think a person might experiment on themselves -- see what a vow /practice of silence might come to on SL. I grant that.
Vajra Raymaker: (typed that before the bell, btw, just for the sake of any experimenters out there)
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Vajra Raymaker: yes, Stevenaia, and it bothers me a bit, because I wonder about the way the information is being used
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, one hopes for good
stevenaia Michinaga: or not at all
stevenaia Michinaga: (no use)
iwandertoo Resident: what bothers you about it?
stevenaia Michinaga: but being here over a thousnad times in the past few years, I assume a patient (or bored) soul could find something of interest regarding group dynamics
stevenaia Michinaga: or individual personalities
stevenaia Michinaga: not sure that bothers me
Vajra Raymaker: Well, there are lots of things going on here to look at
Vajra Raymaker: Let's start with this:
stevenaia Michinaga: like my friends who don;t have "Easy Pass" to pay tolls so that "they" can't be tracked, Not sure who thay are or why they would care
Vajra Raymaker: I suppose that we could both agree that if someone gathers statistics and reports statistics, and you were in the survey which the statistics concern... you are okay with that
Vajra Raymaker: I would have to say that I personally am okay with that
Vajra Raymaker: However, in every survey that I have encountered recently, there is a blurb that says that the results will be reported only in aggregate form. In other words, there seems to be a commonly acknowledged practice to preserve anonymity in even the most innocuous surveys
stevenaia Michinaga: there have been discussions in the past about the information on the wiki and what can be done with it, who gets the credit and who gets the gold
Vajra Raymaker: Now where does that practice derive from I wonder
Vajra Raymaker: Oh good I am glad those discussions are going on
stevenaia Michinaga: from time to time... and now :)
Vajra Raymaker: I think those questions are very connected to the privacy question about "Easy Pass" tolls that you mentioned
Vajra Raymaker: The issue of profit and the issue of privacy are very connected
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm sure there would be more discussion if something was written formally
stevenaia Michinaga: for now, the value to someone my yet be found
stevenaia Michinaga: *may

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: if someone, a researcher was to draw some conclusions about our group, write a book, or paper on us, would that be a problem. Pema did that early on about the group in a virtual world publication
iwandertoo Resident: waves
Vajra Raymaker: Who records everything that is said or everything that happens? I can think of these examples: artists (I have heard it said that artists must document what they do ), people doing science, highly successful academics hoping to be written up in history, people taking minutes at meetings for communities, people taking legal testimony. Are there others? What is the point of recording?
Vajra Raymaker: To answer you rquestion, Stevenaia, I will have to think about that
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: me too
stevenaia Michinaga: FYI http://journals.tdl.org/jvwr/article/view/288/242
stevenaia Michinaga: being here I often look though the logs, learn much from people here
Vajra Raymaker: I think that it is important too to see what kind of phenomenon this whole SL and internet communications more generally is. It is not static, and there is all the M. Mcluhan inspired talk about fluid tribalism.
stevenaia Michinaga: even tonight I will be reading about M. Mcluhan because of you, for that I thank you
Vajra Raymaker: I think of all the National Geographic photographers who profitted off of people from remote corners of the world who had not seen a camera before
stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_McLuhan
Vajra Raymaker: TY for saying so, Stevenaia, and I bring up McLuahn only because of a SL friend who talks about him all the time
Vajra Raymaker: in turn
stevenaia Michinaga: I have never heard of him, can you tell us more?
Vajra Raymaker: I think of friends of mine who have disallowed a musician friend's request to have a recording of some chanting from indigenous American people, out of respect
Vajra Raymaker: for their spiritual practice
stevenaia Michinaga: if your wish is to not be recorded, you can always not return
Vajra Raymaker: Oh I think he made a big impact on thinkers in the 60s, Stev. He was an English professor in Toronto who became fascinated by the new media and made many predictions about how it would change consciousness
stevenaia Michinaga: or let us know and you comments will be deleted, but not on a regular basis
Vajra Raymaker: yes. that's why I didn't come back after the first few times, Stev. What triggered me to bring up the topic just now was Sophia's asking my location, and then saying thank you. No one in other parts of Second LIfe asks people they don't know what their location is
Vajra Raymaker: So it surprised me a bit               (ok, I won't ask anymore, thanks for the view - SSL)
Vajra Raymaker: That's why I asked whether people here frequented other parts of SL
Zaldaan Sirnah: Recording here and taking minutes, notes, etc. is very different. It's an ongoing issue here though.
stevenaia Michinaga: some are very private here , others are open, there is more than on how are gender and location neutral, and that choice is respected
Vajra Raymaker: yes, I guess it is.
stevenaia Michinaga: *more than one....
Vajra Raymaker: Yes as you say, people are free to come or go, to speak or not to speak, and I suppose... to lie or not to lie. Though I would rather have a community with no lying myself. I like it when anonymity encourages openness, which it can do.
stevenaia Michinaga: if you were to say your location is youe own, I don't think Sophia would have been offensed
stevenaia Michinaga: *offended
Zaldaan Sirnah: that's not the problem -- the problem is forgetting the recording is on
Zaldaan Sirnah: imho
Vajra Raymaker: :) Sophia seems like she has equinamity and kindness
stevenaia Michinaga: we do our best to keep it in front of us all and all aound those who enter Zaldaan
Vajra Raymaker: Oh Zald, I hadn't thought of that
Zaldaan Sirnah: just like the camera -- people say they forget after a while.

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, true, and you ahve the option to ask that yoru comments if mis spoken to be deleted
Zaldaan Sirnah: it reminds me of an addiction in terms of the attractiveness, temptation, and allure of the conversation and its effects and the subsequent regret
Vajra Raymaker: yes
Vajra Raymaker: This is I think the issue of our age
Zaldaan Sirnah: And the ability of the mind to forget the part that said, "I'm never going to do that again."
Vajra Raymaker: More so than global warming
Vajra Raymaker: Yes it can suck people in
Vajra Raymaker: I see that
Vajra Raymaker: And cause them to behave to their own selves wrongly
Vajra Raymaker: We do have ethical obligations to ourselves, I believe
Zaldaan Sirnah: Reward processing/centers of the brain must mask some types of regret. I wonder what type of regret is lasting.
stevenaia Michinaga: the confort of the group can have that affect, but I suspect more value to the paticipants and future readers to a lesser extent comes to that
Vajra Raymaker: Zald, did you happen to follow any of the discussion online about the Vancouver riot aftermath?
Vajra Raymaker: This phenomenon that you are talking about sort of happened there
Vajra Raymaker: I think it was the same
Zaldaan Sirnah: no I was outside doing some stretches strength and movement work
Vajra Raymaker: People, looters and vandals and cop attackers doing it all in front of the cameras
Vajra Raymaker: and now people are turning them in from their facebook posts boasting of their exploits
Vajra Raymaker: Oh Zald I didn't mean a discussion here in this virutal space of pab
Vajra Raymaker: I think those rioters were sucked in by the pleasure of acting out in front of an audience... though the cameras of that very audience willl make toruble for them in the end
Vajra Raymaker: The cameras were out, but they sort of lost track of the cameras
Vajra Raymaker: there were so many
stevenaia Michinaga: nods , over Hockey of all things
stevenaia Michinaga: i.e., I can;t understand that
Zaldaan Sirnah: cameras were "out"?
Vajra Raymaker: http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/06...ncouvers-loss/
Vajra Raymaker: They posed before iphone cameras and all sorts of other cameras, while in the midst of doing illegal acts
Vajra Raymaker: And then they went home and boasted on facebook of illegal acts
Vajra Raymaker: So then several vigilante sites started up
Vajra Raymaker: There are sites devoted to naming and shaming, and sites devoted to providing names to the pictures to then supply to the police

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: I must be going now, a very interesting conversation tonight, thank for coming, I can;t guarente the log of comments wil be posted after I leave as there ahve been auto recording problems and the content may be coming form sophia's and my log file, you you are on n otice, you may not be recorded :)
stevenaia Michinaga: never thought I would be saying that tonght
Vajra Raymaker: ok thanks for letting us know, Stev.
Vajra Raymaker: I enjoyed talking to you and to you Zald
Vajra Raymaker: I should be off too
stevenaia Michinaga: night Varjra, Zaldaan
Vajra Raymaker: Time to get something done offline.
stevenaia Michinaga: :)