2012.08.06 19:00 - Theme Session: Quality and Consciousness

The Guardian for this theme meeting (the 6th in a series of 8), was Pema Pera. Eliza posted this session. 

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi
--BELL--
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Myna, Twitchy, Prim
TwitchyEars Resident: hi everyone
Raffila Millgrove: Hi
Pema Pera: hi everybody!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema
TwitchyEars Resident: hi pema
Raffila Millgrove: hi
Pema Pera: (still getting my internet connection stabilized)
TwitchyEars Resident: stop chewing the wires ? o.O
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: few rodents here . . .
TwitchyEars Resident: were having a thunder storm if it gets bad i might have to poof
Pema Pera: we'll keep our fingers crossed!
TwitchyEars Resident: on the bright side it wont be 40c in my bedroom
Eliza Madrigal: the luxury of continuous connection....
Eliza Madrigal: when going smoothly it is easy to forget how choppy SL once was
Pema Pera: yes!
Pema Pera: easy to get used on things going well
TwitchyEars Resident: i havent been here that long to have seen that
TwitchyEars Resident: i think we get used to it and get spoiled
Eliza Madrigal smiles
TwitchyEars Resident: hi claire
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Claire
Pema Pera: hi Claire!
Claire Maskelyne: Hello, everyone. It's nice to see you all.
Claire Maskelyne: ^-^/
Pema Pera: good seeing you too!
Eliza Madrigal: you too... though wish I were on firestorm to see some of the pretty clothes (have gaps in phoenix)

Beginning...

Pema Pera: today is going to be the sixth of a series of eight theme sessions, but we have few of the original participants here, so I'm not sure whether to continue or not, or to just chat
Claire Maskelyne: What did you have in mind?
Pema Pera: a while ago I volunteered to organize eight meetings over four weeks
Pema Pera: this is the sixth
Pema Pera: Last time we talked about Quality and Presence
Pema Pera: would anyone like to report about their explorations?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kori
Korel Laloix: Heya
Claire Maskelyne: Welcome, Korel.
Raffila Millgrove: hi Kori
Pema Pera: or discuss the general topic? Or do you prefer to chat about other things?
Pema Pera: hi Korel!
Korel Laloix smiles
TwitchyEars Resident: hi korel
Raffila Millgrove: I found the link to the interview.. with the Author of Ignorance that Eliza mailed us to be very helpful in understanding how you structured this ... seires.
Claire Maskelyne: What does everyone think? Planned discussion, or chatting?
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Raffi - friend of Pema's, and Bleu had passed that along... took me over a week to finally listen to it but was inspired by its spirit
Eliza Madrigal: wb Myna
Raffila Millgrove: i think my husband is going to recommend the book to his book club.
Myna Maven: See if I can stick around this time. :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: hi Myna!
Myna Maven: Hi. Hi everyone.
TwitchyEars Resident: hi myna
Claire Maskelyne: Hello, Myna. ^-^

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: wb Myna
Eliza Madrigal: I love that analogy from the author, of the black cat in the dark room, that doesn't exit... hah
Pema Pera: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: let me get the link for everyone here :) brb
Raffila Millgrove: i read the transcript. very informative. easy to understand.
Raffila Millgrove: how did you meet this guy Pema?
Raffila Millgrove: the author?

Pema Pera: he invited me to give a talk in his series, Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: from columbia U
Raffila Millgrove: oh!
Raffila Millgrove: wow. tell us about it?
Eliza Madrigal: (link to interview: http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/20...drives-science )
Eliza Madrigal settles in for story....

Pema Pera: he set up this course in which once a week he invites somebody else who, like him, thinks way out of the box, and is interested in not-knowing
Claire Maskelyne: Oh! Is that why you're taking a trip in September?
Pema Pera: and sees the value in that
Pema Pera: no, this was a couple years ago
Claire Maskelyne: Ah, I see.
Pema Pera: I'm taking too many trips, almost any month :-)
Pema Pera: hi Ewan
Raffila Millgrove: so.. what did you talk about. did you mention us? at Pab. or your 9 seconds?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ewan
Pema Pera: not directly, no, I didn't mention any groups or authors or anything
Pema Pera: in such a setting I prefer to talk from scratch
Pema Pera: no references
Ewan Bonham: Hi Folks..
Raffila Millgrove: hey San and Ewan
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San

Pema Pera: I pointed to a wall and asked them what they saw
Raffila Millgrove: wow no notes? what did you discuss then?
Pema Pera: that kind of thing :-)
Santoshima Resident: hello everyone
Pema Pera: hi San!
Raffila Millgrove: ah!
Eliza Madrigal: hehe... you have to say more Pema
Raffila Millgrove wonders if the listeners were receptive and go "into it".

Pema Pera: well, I helped them see a bit of what it means to become aware of the sea of consciousness we are swimming in, or better, are part of
Pema Pera: I told them "I have consciousness" is a sentence that doesn't make sense
Pema Pera: while "consciousness has me" makes at least some sense, potentially
Pema Pera: and I asked them to take some time to check for themselves
Pema Pera: (that's a lot more effective, I feel, than quoting Husserl or other philosophers or scientists etc)
Claire Maskelyne: Who is Husserl?
Pema Pera: a philosopher
TwitchyEars Resident: learning by doing is very effective
Pema Pera: who also talked a lot about consciousness and appearance
Eliza Madrigal: (link for Husserl: http://www.ids.ias.edu/~piet/publ/ot...erlcircle.html )
Pema Pera: yes, indeed, Twitchy!
Claire Maskelyne: Thank you, Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: yw :)
Pema Pera: real philosophy ought to be explainable over coffee -- or beer
TwitchyEars Resident: sorry brb gotta fix something on my sim

Pema Pera: why not ask the question here: what could it possibly mean to say "I have consciousness'? What is this "I" that is supposed to have consciousness?
Eliza Madrigal: containers ...
Claire Maskelyne: A series of ideas, feelings, impressions and states, which we imagine to be attached to a discrete body that's really 90% bacteria?
Pema Pera: but all of that are things we are aware of within consciousness
Claire Maskelyne: Yep.
Raffila Millgrove: i think it's 90 percent water? but i see your point Claire.
Pema Pera: so how can any of that own the consciousness that we use to be aware of it?
Eliza Madrigal: a false either / or - that one has to 'contain' the other ?
Claire Maskelyne: Yes, but I meant in terms of cell count, Raffila.
Pema Pera: yes, most of our cells are alien :)

--BELL--

 Claire Maskelyne: But when a lot of people talk about consciousness, I think they see it as something localized in and produced by the brain.
Pema Pera: actually, when I asked whether anyone had anything they'd like to report, early on in this session, I hadn't realized that there were two reports on the wiki page already:           [link removed by Eliza since comments are on this very page]
Pema Pera: I had not scrolled down far enough, sorry
Pema Pera: I enjoyed just reading Eos' and Eliza's reports there
Pema Pera: about quality and presence
Eliza Madrigal: "warm perception" ... interesting
Raffila Millgrove: i liked your thoughts on reading eliza.

Pema Pera: if I were to distill both, I'd say: "quality and presence as extra dimensions of experience, not easily caught or projected into content"

Eliza Madrigal: ty Raffi ... was a case of 'drop right where you are and see what you're seeing'
Eliza Madrigal: apologies, brb
TwitchyEars Resident: im not sure qualities like that can be accurately described. just felt
Pema Pera: yes, descriptions fall short, but interesting to try to see how far you can get
Pema Pera: in our digital age, we are so very focused on content
Ewan Bonham: Nodding
Pema Pera: while quality and presence are at right angles to that, so to speak
Claire Maskelyne: What would you describe as 'content'?
Pema Pera: different like form and color
Pema Pera: information content, Claire
Claire Maskelyne: Ah, thank you.
Pema Pera: what is, rather than how

Raffila Millgrove: do you see dualism playing into this, Pema?
Pema Pera: in what way, Raffi?
Raffila Millgrove: well it seems .. like that inability to be both here and there.. is a form of dualism.
Pema Pera: here and there . . . you mean focus on content and quality?
Raffila Millgrove: i was referring to the inability to focus on content.. while trying to stay inside something.
TwitchyEars Resident: there is no outside when you are part of everything

Pema Pera: perhaps it will help to take a concrete example, to be more clear
Pema Pera: like this morning I enjoyed my walk to work
Pema Pera: in what seemed like a series of nano meditations, so to speak

Pema Pera: each fraction of a second I was struck by something else
Pema Pera: and each snapshot felt deep and complete
Pema Pera: yet there was also a kind of flow to it
Pema Pera: while normally continuity and snapshots seems opposite, dual in some sense

Pema Pera: it reminded me of the 9 seconds pauses that PaB began with
Pema Pera: as micro meditations
Pema Pera: but this was far shorter, fractions of a second each
Raffila Millgrove: yes. thank you. good example.
Claire Maskelyne: That sounds beautiful, Pema.

Pema Pera: and quality and presence were two ways of trying to put into words what jumped out so strongly
Pema Pera: also, after staying with that for a while, I could catch my normal thinking mind taking over again
Pema Pera: and make everything foggy and muddy in comparison
Pema Pera: and as soon as I noticed that it was very easy to get back to the continuity and vividness in particularities

--BELL--

Pema Pera: getting "into" such a state is actually not so hard -- remembering that it is possible to stop/drop and do so is far harder, I feel

TwitchyEars Resident: han shan said it was possible to find nirvana and lose it again. i think the ebb and flow is normal. one of the things i read about controlling my nightmares was to ask yourself awake when you pass thru a door - touch it and ask am i awake or am i sleeping ? awake youll say no im awake. eventually asleep, youll say sleeping and then alert yourself to being in a dream. i think it s possible to train our minds to let go of parts we dont need. the filters we use to keep things out. some are good to keep out. others we need to experience
Pema Pera: yes, that's a nice practice, Twitchy, and it works; I've played with that quite a few times

Raffila Millgrove: i have too. i learned by studying the hands before going to sleep. and looking at hands in the dream. as a way to change a dream.
Raffila Millgrove: they called it controlled dreaming. was a long time ago.
Eliza Madrigal: ah, I've heard of that technique... does it help Raffi?
Raffila Millgrove: yes. particularly good if you have nightmares.
Pema Pera: (btw, I'll have to leave a bit early today; lunch at noon sharp a few buildings down the road)
TwitchyEars Resident: all i have is nightmares
Raffila Millgrove: try it twitchy.
TwitchyEars Resident: i will :)
Pema Pera: sorry to hear that, Twitchy!
Eliza Madrigal: k, Pema, thanks much
Raffila Millgrove: when you get scared in dream.. look at your hands in the dream.. and use them to change it.
Claire Maskelyne: Take care, Pema. :)
Raffila Millgrove: study your hands first. tho. awake. to remember them.
TwitchyEars Resident: happy nomming :) bring us back something
Raffila Millgrove: thank you Pema..
Pema Pera: see you all soon again; our next theme session in this series will be Thursday evening, 7 pm SLT
Pema Pera: c u
Ewan Bonham: Bye Pema..
Eliza Madrigal: there is one technique that worked for me to stay alert in a dream, but change scene a bit if disturbing, which is 'spinning'
TwitchyEars Resident: oh
TwitchyEars Resident: is o k

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stevie
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
TwitchyEars Resident: hi stevie
stevenaia Michinaga: sorry I;m late (came from a Joe Cocker concert)
Eliza Madrigal: we're a bit quiet atm, were chatting about quality and presence, then micro medictation and mini moments and lucid dreaming :)
Claire Maskelyne: Hello, Steve. ^06
Claire Maskelyne: Blah, ^-^
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: nice concert?
stevenaia Michinaga: I was actually monitoring the bicycle parking, but it was close enough felt like it was backstage
Eliza Madrigal: :)) highlight?
stevenaia Michinaga: the warm up band was Huey Lewis and the News
Santoshima Resident: bedtime .... 'nite
Eliza Madrigal: Nite San
stevenaia Michinaga: night San
Raffila Millgrove: wow what fun Stevie.

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: well i got my important tv show now.. hehe. see you all laters. have a good one.
stevenaia Michinaga: I sponsor the Bycycle parking every year at a local 10 day music festival in town, and volunteer, so there are perks
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Raff
TwitchyEars Resident: nini
TwitchyEars Resident: hi pila
Ewan Bonham: Thank you... really interesting stuff... bye for now...:)
stevenaia Michinaga: hu Pila, Bye Ewan
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Myna Maven: Hi Pila
Eliza Madrigal: Night Raffi Claire, Twitchy, Prim
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila
Eliza Madrigal: Night Ewan (belated)
TwitchyEars Resident: gonna go finish my textures i was making take care everyone
Claire Maskelyne: Good night, everyone, and have a pleasant tomorrow.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: creatives among us
Eliza Madrigal: :D
Pila Mulligan: bye
Myna Maven: Goodnight all.
Eliza Madrigal: Night Myna
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: nice to see you Pila, all well?
Pila Mulligan: yes, thanks, ELiza, and you?
Eliza Madrigal: am ok, thanks :) bit scattered, but found tonight's session settling
Pila Mulligan: what was the topic tonight?
Eliza Madrigal: quality and presence, then moving onto micro moments and lucid dreaming a little
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: nothing on Curiosity?
Eliza Madrigal: not too much - touching on ignorance though :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I am sorry I will miss Saturday's meeting as I will be in FLorida, Pila
Pila Mulligan: oh, maybe you can meet with ELiza
Eliza Madrigal: we may :)
Pila Mulligan: cool
stevenaia Michinaga: I read that interview, ELiza, interesting thoughts on ignorance and science
Eliza Madrigal: I have been chained to my son's virtual school but really hope to work things out
Eliza Madrigal: nice interview, huh? bleu passed that along originally but I think it got buried in many emails
stevenaia Michinaga: hoping for his breakthrough
Eliza Madrigal: Pema was saying he gave a talk at an event organized by that author...
Eliza Madrigal: 'out of the box' thinkers :)

stevenaia Michinaga: nods, he does though a monkey wrench into conventional scientific thinking
Eliza Madrigal: and suggests that should happen more and more :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise
Eliza Madrigal: maybe many scientists feel they've pushed the method vehicle to near its limits
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise :)
stevenaia Michinaga: if you can't keep redefining a process, everything stays frozon
Paradise Tennant: hiya pila so nice to see you :)
Paradise Tennant: hiya eliza stev korel :))
Pila Mulligan: same :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes ... evolution
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Paradise, Korel
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: Eliza said the earlier session was on quality and presence
Pila Mulligan: can you give a brief re-cap please?
Paradise Tennant: been working on appreciation :)) all week .. stopping to notice just how beautiful everything is :))
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm I assume you aren;t typing that thing about the Transaltion failing

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: seems even the bell... has issues
Eliza Madrigal: well one thing that comes forwawrd is that when we run out, presence arises..
Eliza Madrigal: that isn't a quote from the session.... but sophiasharon described being in auto pilot last week, and hm, well I understood her to be pointing to insight arising
Eliza Madrigal: so when we run into dualisms and either or, if we don't choose between, what happens?
Korel Laloix: Caio all.
Korel Laloix: Take care
Pila Mulligan: bye Korel
Paradise Tennant: nite nite korel :)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Korel
Korel Laloix smiles
Eliza Madrigal: night Korel
Pila Mulligan: we pass between the poles?
stevenaia Michinaga: when we don;t choose, a choice is made non-the-less

Pila Mulligan: Hegelian Dialectic suggests a synthesis will arise anyway
Eliza Madrigal: between the poles... that's an interesting phrase ...
Pila Mulligan: between the thesis and ahtithesis to maintain the subsequent reference :)
stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/dialectic.htm
Eliza Madrigal: I listened to a kabbalah teacher recently, who described a 'will to receive' contrasted with 'will to bestow'... and the sense that when we are looking to receive we set up choices/preferences ... I sort of liked this way of describing the familiar ego trip
Eliza Madrigal: ty Stevie... click
Pila Mulligan: that website seems to be obsessed with Dialectical Materialism, the Marixst view of the Hegelian Dialectic
stevenaia Michinaga: is there a better one?
Pila Mulligan: the original one :)
Eliza Madrigal: The Hegelian dialectical formula: A (thesis) versus B (anti-thesis) equals C (synthesis). For example: If (A) my idea of freedom conflicts with (B) your idea of freedom then (C) neither of us can be free until everyone agrees to be a slave.
Pila Mulligan: the latter example is the obsession, easier one: ice meets sun = water
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: depends on how close it gets ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: am getting silly.... think it is time to close these stingy eyes
Eliza Madrigal: nice to see you Pila, Para, Stevie
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegelia...lian_dialectic
Paradise Tennant: smiles nite nite eliza sweet dreams :))
Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza

Paradise Tennant: In the Logic, for instance, Hegel describes a dialectic of existence:
first, existence must be posited as pure Being (Sein); but pure Being, upon examination, is found to be indistinguishable from Nothing (Nichts).
When it is realized that what is coming into being is, at the same time, also returning to nothing (in life, for example, one's living is also a dying), both Being and Nothing are united as Becoming

stevenaia Michinaga: night eliza, talk to you soon
Eliza Madrigal: ty sweet dreams too (will enjoy reading the log)
Paradise Tennant: we are everything and nothing it seems :)
Pila Mulligan: One important dialectical principle for Hegel is the transition from quantity to quality, which he terms the Measure. The measure is the qualitative quantum, the quantum is the existence of quantity
Paradise Tennant: this reminds me of my first night at PAB ;))
stevenaia Michinaga: it's always the first night here
Pila Mulligan: "The identity between quantity and quality, which is found in Measure, is at first only implicit, and not yet explicitly realised. In other words, these two categories, which unite in Measure, each claim an independent authority. On the one hand, the quantitative features of existence may be altered, without affecting its quality.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: time is an illusion :)
stevenaia Michinaga: but time to sleep is not
stevenaia Michinaga: night my dear friends
Pila Mulligan: :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles nite nite stev sweet dreams :))
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
Pila Mulligan: have a nice visit to Florida
stevenaia Michinaga: good to see you both
Pila Mulligan: same :)
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks
Paradise Tennant: enjoy the holiday !
stevenaia Michinaga: should be perfect to see the meteor shower over the ocean
Paradise Tennant: smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: I think it;s Saturday night
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pila Mulligan: hope you have a good view of the sky
Paradise Tennant: hope you get a spectacular view :))
Pila Mulligan: :)

--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: did you watch the Curiosity Rover landing?
Paradise Tennant: no I didn't read about it :))
Paradise Tennant: must have been compelling
Pila Mulligan: I watched it live, it was quite exciting when it landed
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: It was late at night for me but history making .. is worth staying up for .. just didn't have the gumption
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: it was not late here :)
Paradise Tennant: how have you been pila been a while since I have seen you:)
Pila Mulligan: I have been fine thanks, and I hope all is well with you also
Paradise Tennant: yes all is well .. just coming off a long weekend :) and I afraid I did not do as much as I planned but it was lovely nonetheless
Pila Mulligan: nice -- this year I have mnade a small greenhouse and begun to grow my own fresh salad stuff
Paradise Tennant: I remember :))
Paradise Tennant: you were growing tomatoes lettuce .. hmm cucumbers :))
Pila Mulligan: yes, and basil and eggplant
Paradise Tennant: all safe from the vog :)
Pila Mulligan: yes, and from the incessant rain too
Pila Mulligan: so they don;t drown :)

Paradise Tennant: has it been a rainy summer there ?
Pila Mulligan: and the fruit flies :)
Pila Mulligan: yes, very rainy
Paradise Tennant: so everything must be very lush and green
Pila Mulligan: lush, green and mushy
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: shall we turn off the recorder?
Paradise Tennant: we have had an amazing summer all sunshine .. sure :)) if you like :)
Pila Mulligan: I think you need to do it
Pila Mulligan: please
Pila Mulligan: it needs a Guardian