2012.08.13 07:00 - Sharing Our Ignorance

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi San
Santoshima Resident: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: quiet morning so far, how are you?
Santoshima Resident: quiet :0
Santoshima Resident: how about you?
Eliza Madrigal: similar... though in a short while I'll go to have lunch with stevenaia, so that's nice
Santoshima Resident: a virtual lunch?
Eliza Madrigal: ah, no he is visiting Florida :)
Santoshima Resident: oh! that's right
Santoshima Resident: that's great
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Szavanna - how are the mandalas going?
Santoshima Resident: all = me
Santoshima Resident: in this case
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, well, fractals...
szavanna Resident: ohh °͜°
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu, Ari :)
szavanna Resident: hi Bleu & Ari °͜°
Arisia Vita: Hi all
szavanna Resident: hi San °͜°
Santoshima Resident: nello Bleu and blue Ari :)
Santoshima Resident: hi Szavanna
Eliza Madrigal: beautiful new appearance Bleu
Bleu Oleander: :) ty Eliza
szavanna Resident: rezrez
szavanna Resident: ty for the particle class invite Bleuji °͜°
Bleu Oleander: yw szaji
szavanna Resident: :)

Eliza Madrigal: I've looked into "Ignorance" more, Bleu :) Thanks for your email to the group
Bleu Oleander: yw ... tried to convey a bit of the topic
Bleu Oleander: but plenty of places to go with it
Eliza Madrigal: there is a phrase Stuart Firestein uses which I really like "Thoroughly conscious ignorance"
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: and he says all facts are really pointers to...

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: what isn't known and questions that might be asked
Bleu Oleander: conscious ignorance is the prelude to every real advance in science - quote from Maxwell
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Arisia Vita: If you really want to rediscover wonder, you need to step outside of that tiny terrified space of rightness and look around at each other, and look out at the vastness and complexity and mystery of the universe and be able to say wow, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. - Kathryn Schulz: On Being Wrong
Eliza Madrigal smiles
szavanna Resident: hi Zenji °͜°
Arisia Vita: The wise profit equally at both window and mirror, finding enlightenment in one and humility in the other.
Bleu Oleander: yes ... move from certainty and facts to curiousity
Bleu Oleander: nice Ari
Eliza Madrigal: wow nice, Ari
Arisia Vita: ty
Eliza Madrigal: Oooh.... and the other thing that jumped out at me, was the phrase "uncertainty without irritability"
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: this reminded me of meditative stability, capacity... sort of a tolerance for opennness
Bleu Oleander: being comfortable with uncertainty
Zen Arado: people don't like uncertainty

Arisia Vita: Where is the world whose people don't prefer a comfortable, warm, and well-worn belief, however illogical, to the chilly winds of uncertainty? - Asimov "Foundation And Earth"

Santoshima Resident: uncertainty is what's certain
Santoshima Resident: that's all there is
Arisia Vita: to those who tell me they are certain of something I can only think...
Arisia Vita: Living with certainty seems a great chore, To dwell in a house with no window or door.
Zen Arado: wall themselves in yeh
Eliza Madrigal: disconnected, nods...
Eliza Madrigal: the tolerance for that uncertainty, the ignorance, is what allows for imagination to arise... and imagination is necessary for science too

Bleu Oleander: so how does one leave the windows open and the doors unlocked?
Eliza Madrigal: great question Bleu
Arisia Vita: welcome uncertainty as a cherished guest in your home
Zen Arado: Beginner's Mind again?
Santoshima Resident: pragmatic
Eliza Madrigal: first thing that comes to mind is to do things that make you a bit uncomfortable
Bleu Oleander: yes, venture out of our comfort zones
Eliza Madrigal: go against grain

Santoshima Resident: kind of general, isn't that?
szavanna Resident: like visit another continent?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: so what are some specifics?
Eliza Madrigal: well today I will drive to the beach to have lunch with someone I met in SL... that's something that is weird but great every time so far :)
Bleu Oleander: nice!
szavanna Resident: wow °͜° enjoy
szavanna Resident: it's not me ;(
Santoshima Resident: hello to stevenaia
Eliza Madrigal: aw Sza, come on over ;-)
szavanna Resident packs bags hastily
szavanna Resident: °͜°

Eliza Madrigal: it still makes me nervous, even though we've met before. the first time was terrifying but exhilarating... meeting SophiaSharon then others
Santoshima Resident: how so terrifying?
Eliza Madrigal: I found myself crossing boundaries in ways I hadn't intended when first coming into SL.. it took on its own life

Bleu Oleander: I was amazed at how much more there was to the person I met in rl from sl ... did you feel that?
Eliza Madrigal: certainly new dimensions
Santoshima Resident: an actual person
Santoshima Resident: ?
Santoshima Resident: not just your imagination
Santoshima Resident: projections?
Zen Arado: hmmm so we never know people properly n SL?
Santoshima Resident: that is wonderful
Eliza Madrigal: but it is similar when talking on skype too, or in talking longer than in session chats
szavanna Resident: do we know people in RL properly?
Bleu Oleander: even meeting someone I've met via skype was amazingly different in person
Eliza Madrigal: it didn't really fundamentally change my impressions of anyone, which was amazing
Zen Arado: people are older in RL :)
Eliza Madrigal: I had that experience once years ago, where I met someone I'd talked to a lot in message boards who turned out to be 'quite different'... but, only once
Eliza Madrigal smiles @ Zen
Zen Arado: matbe we are more real in SL?
Eliza Madrigal: I don't consider 'older' a quality of personality

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: different maybe wrong word for me, more multi-faceted perhaps
Zen Arado: physicality can cause different impression but skews or overwhelms how we see people?
szavanna Resident: it's an interesting experience - to meet people in SL/skype/voice/ and then meet them in RL
Eliza Madrigal: more windows and doors
Arisia Vita: and mirrors
Eliza Madrigal: yes Ari
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: interesting question Zen

Santoshima Resident: biases in all directions ... coming face to face is a mirror for that
Santoshima Resident: whether in rw or in sl
Eliza Madrigal: for me the new impression just sits alongside

Zen Arado: I tend to think being in a wheelchair would cause a more negative impression of a person
Bleu Oleander: not for me Zen
Arisia Vita: not so Zen, it should lead us to beyond the chair, to the person who sits in it
Arisia Vita: to look
szavanna Resident: you can't generalise hmm everyone is different
Zen Arado: I know all that...just being realistic

Eliza Madrigal: don't you think people who relate in SL have more of a foundation than that... of seeing 'person' first?
Zen Arado: more than how we 'should' be
Santoshima Resident: no
Santoshima Resident: liz
Santoshima Resident: not
Santoshima Resident: it would seem
Eliza Madrigal: well we get to know one another mind to mind a bit more... or at least potentially
Santoshima Resident: it is knowing the person through text
Santoshima Resident: as many handicaps and fullness there as in any means
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not too verbal in RL so I have felt someone in SL would know me in ways someone who only knew me in RL may not
Santoshima Resident: interesting
Zen Arado: oh?
Zen Arado: surprised

Bleu Oleander: we underestimate how we relate physically ... missing in sl
Santoshima Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: it does matter
Eliza Madrigal: Philip Rosedale feels that the more we feel 'presence' in SL the more civil we become
szavanna Resident: i have such deep converstions in SL - I can't do that here in RL

Bleu Oleander: we learn so much by just looking at someones facial expressions ... so many subtle cues
Eliza Madrigal: true Sza, say more?
Bleu Oleander: I feel fortunate to do what I do in rl ... have had sooo many deep and wonderful conversations
szavanna Resident: hmm since I am on the other side of the world and my close friends are all in hungary or somewhere else ... it's hard to have interesting , deep , meaningful conversations ....with "RL people"

Bleu Oleander: preparing the space for that is very important
Santoshima Resident: true
Eliza Madrigal: that regularly throws you out of your comfort zones I guess @ Bleu
Zen Arado: RL has people who are always busy I find
Bleu Oleander: been thrown out often hehe

Santoshima Resident: maybe being open can be a "comfort" zone
Santoshima Resident: not plush
Santoshima Resident: but possible
Santoshima Resident: and alive within that
Zen Arado: people make time to be here in SL
Zen Arado: but too busy in RL
Eliza Madrigal: true Sza... our contexts are all so different

Eliza Madrigal: :) imagines who would throw Bleu out, hah...
Bleu Oleander: many!
szavanna Resident: what throw Bleuji out?
Bleu Oleander: hahaha!
szavanna Resident wakes up
Eliza Madrigal: :)
szavanna Resident: °͜°
Santoshima Resident: group dynamics
Bleu Oleander hangs on to her pillow
Santoshima Resident: never can tell who will be "thrown out"
Eliza Madrigal: this is an interesting angle, of openness as comfort zone... I think I understand that a bit
szavanna Resident: yes very interesting

Zen Arado: openness is not comfortable usually
Bleu Oleander: gets more comfortable the more you practice it
Eliza Madrigal: when I have to draw aboundary that can be really uncomfortable
szavanna Resident: yes one can get used to it ...to enjoy change
Bleu Oleander: sl can do that
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: people so wary even about having this pab recorded
Bleu Oleander: has helped me practice openness

szavanna Resident: I set up an "opencafe" to figure out openness
szavanna Resident: it's quite a thing
Bleu Oleander: in rl?
szavanna Resident: °͜°
szavanna Resident: yes
Bleu Oleander: nice
szavanna Resident: I ran an opencafe for 10 years
szavanna Resident: to stretch my limits
Bleu Oleander: (((sza)))
szavanna Resident: (((BLeuji ))))
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bleu Oleander: wish it was in Phoenix :)
szavanna Resident: I show you pics

--BELL--

szavanna Resident: http://www.flickr.com/photos/opencaf...708803/detail/
szavanna Resident: I thought everyone saw that °͜°
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes the limitations of our life force us to seek openness in creative ways, like with plants reaching for the sunlight
Eliza Madrigal: thanks sza :))
szavanna Resident: just an example to step out of the comfort zone
Bleu Oleander: pics look great
Bleu Oleander: somehow missed seeing these
szavanna Resident: it's my home actually
szavanna Resident: °͜°
Bleu Oleander: lovely
szavanna Resident: hmm plants reaching for the sun
szavanna Resident: °͜°
Bleu Oleander: so nice to turn your home into an open cafe :)
Zen Arado: great oics Szva
Zen Arado: pics
szavanna Resident: ty °͜°
Arisia Vita: I love a home with lots of windows and doors, it seems to say welcome to all visitors
Bleu Oleander: I must get going
szavanna Resident: °͜° hmm it was fun but a challenge also
Bleu Oleander: nice to be with all of you
Zen Arado: byee Bleu

Eliza Madrigal: well my verbal limitations as a child brought me to write more, which brought me to feel more comfortable in text, which made SL a good fit... so yes there seems a domino - and Sza wanting to have deep discussions not possible in rl environment pulled her to SL...
szavanna Resident: take care Bleu °͜°
Bleu Oleander: hugs
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu :) Thanks for the topic :D
Bleu Oleander: byeeee
szavanna Resident: true Liz
szavanna Resident: byebyee Bleu °͜°

Zen Arado: I was looking at my blog and realised I haven't written anything on it for over a year
Eliza Madrigal: huh
Eliza Madrigal: why not? so much interests you
Zen Arado: it's what that guy who wrote the digitally divided self says maybe
Eliza Madrigal: shallow pools, jumping from puddle to puddle?
Zen Arado: too much shallowness and not enough depth
Zen Arado: yep
Zen Arado: Facebook mentality
szavanna Resident: hmm I don't use FB anymore
Eliza Madrigal: he has a point but I think we grow through it... trying to combat it too much we may throw babies out with bathwater
szavanna Resident: was not able to keep up
Eliza Madrigal: ah
Zen Arado: I'm going off it too
Eliza Madrigal: I think about it a lot but still get some pleasure from waving to people I wouldn't see otherwise... seeing someone's project they're working on, etc
Eliza Madrigal: can be funny...
szavanna Resident: °͜°
szavanna Resident: I just don't get time for it

Zen Arado: even in here our conversations tend to be a bit shallow don't you think?
szavanna Resident: I prefer playing with colors in SL
Zen Arado: One of the reasons I was thinking about studying a whole book
szavanna Resident: or coming to listen to Liz on Mondays °͜°
Eliza Madrigal: :) eep hope I'm not prattling on
Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to study a whole book but hard for everyone to be in one at the same time
Eliza Madrigal: and I think it would be similar, pace of discussion wise, with people going in their own directions :)

Zen Arado: I miss the depth of studying when I was doing philosophy sometimes

Eliza Madrigal: sometimes our really shallow discussions can turn deep suddenly, too, or hm, some underdynamic which may not be apparent at first
Zen Arado: maybe
szavanna Resident: it's better if its shallow - otherwise I don't understand ;p
szavanna Resident: I learn lots at PaB
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: yes you do :-)
Eliza Madrigal: I think there is room to cultivate all sorts of gardens here
szavanna Resident agrees
szavanna Resident: Zenji is too clever
Eliza Madrigal: veggies that need depth and flowers that need more circulated soil
szavanna Resident: ;o)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, that's the issue
szavanna Resident: yes hmm

Zen Arado: no I'm not, I'm just curious about things
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Arisia Vita: pls greet my friend Nazzy
Eliza Madrigal: It is hard but I have to go...
Zen Arado: I had to work really hard to do and an MA
Zen Arado: very hard
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Nazzy :) Ari will you please explain the recording and such? I need to drive to lunch :)
szavanna Resident: AAHHHHH
szavanna Resident: °͜°
Arisia Vita: ok
mrsnazzy844 Resident: AHHHH AAAAAHHHH
mrsnazzy844 Resident: AHHHLYYLAABYYYAAHH
Eliza Madrigal: thanks
mrsnazzy844 Resident: AAHH
Zen Arado: Hi Naz
mrsnazzy844 Resident: AAAAAAHHHH
szavanna Resident: enjoy lunch Liz °͜°
Eliza Madrigal: lovely to spend time with you all
Eliza Madrigal: ty Sza
Zen Arado: byee Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
szavanna Resident: ♥ ♥ ♥
szavanna Resident: see u soon
Eliza Madrigal: bye Zen :))
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ari and Nazzy

--BELL--

Arisia Vita: Nazzy, all chat is recorded and posted on the web later, is that ok with you?
Zen Arado: have you been here before Naz?
mrsnazzy844 Resident: yes
Arisia Vita: ty
mrsnazzy844 Resident: No first time
mrsnazzy844 Resident: :)
Arisia Vita: we like to share our wisdom with the world :)
Arisia Vita: such as it is
Zen Arado: I gave him'her a note card
Arisia Vita: ty Zen
Zen Arado: we like to share our "not knowing" :-)
Zen Arado: our ignorance
Arisia Vita: that too :)
mrsnazzy844 Resident: :)
Zen Arado: we need to think more about what we don't know
Zen Arado: then we will really not know
szavanna Resident: sorry had a phone call
Zen Arado: but I'm thinking this scientist guy is really using ignorance as a way to actually know things in the end :-)
Zen Arado: wb Szva
szavanna Resident: ty °͜°
Zen Arado: http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/20...nce/transcript
Zen Arado: we were talking about a book a guy called Firestein wrote about ignorance Naz
Zen Arado: I have to go and make dinner
szavanna Resident: ok Zenji
szavanna Resident: bon appetitos
szavanna Resident: I see you are a Blink city guy
szavanna Resident: °͜°
szavanna Resident: I have an apartment there °͜°
Zen Arado: ah yes k9 asked me to do an exhibition
szavanna Resident: yes I heard °͜°
szavanna Resident: will go and look
Zen Arado: and I asked him if Xirana could put some paintings there too
szavanna Resident: ah great
szavanna Resident: °͜°
szavanna Resident: you are both so good
Zen Arado: I met an artist last night
Zen Arado: stunning place she has...so colorful
Arisia Vita: I too need to run and take care of some rl chores...be well and happy till we meet again
Arisia Vita: it was great being with you all
szavanna Resident: hugs Ari
szavanna Resident: I see you °͜°
mrsnazzy844 Resident: bye Ari :D
Arisia Vita: farewell
szavanna Resident: I go to PP
Zen Arado: hugs
szavanna Resident: hugs
szavanna Resident: ;)) see u soon
Zen Arado: yes hope so
Zen Arado: byee ;)
szavanna Resident: coming to PP
szavanna Resident: ?
mrsnazzy844 Resident: yer sure
szavanna Resident: °͜°
mrsnazzy844 Resident: <(≧ω≦)>
szavanna Resident: <(≧ω≦)>