The Guardian for this meeting was Xirana, joined by Zon, Zen, boxy and Eliza.

Zon Kwan: hi xirana
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Zon!
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Zon Kwan: how are you
Xirana Oximoxi: i'm a little sleepy:)) I've put the wake up to come to take the log of this session :))
Zon Kwan: ah
Xirana Oximoxi: in Sapin we have lunch quite late and now is siesta time:)
Xirana Oximoxi: how are you?
Zon Kwan: good
Xirana Oximoxi: Spain*
Zon Kwan: have i seen you before here ?
Xirana Oximoxi: well I think so:) not very oft but time to time we have met
Zon Kwan: nods, not been here very often lately
Xirana Oximoxi: no problem:)

Zon Kwan: are there nowadays some topics for these sessions
Xirana Oximoxi: pab activities and subjects are very alive...
Zon Kwan: or do people just chat what they like
Xirana Oximoxi: I am not aware of which subject was proposed for this week... but I think they/ we chat spontanously and the serious matters are concentrated on Theme sessions
Xirana Oximoxi: about relations between science and spirituality
Xirana Oximoxi: and how can our experience here in PaB become more scientific
Zon Kwan: nods..i was here when the idea of subjects was discussed
Xirana Oximoxi: to tell the truth I just have read some of the first sessions and also emails to the group
Zon Kwan: ah
Zon Kwan: interesting ?
Xirana Oximoxi: the sessions take place during my night
Xirana Oximoxi: yes, I think so... it's interesting but also as we are a very diverse group of people, I see that the wonder to get more scientific results of our meetings maybe is not general
Zon Kwan: nods
Xirana Oximoxi: for some/ me included, coming here and listening is also interesting
Zon Kwan: yes
Xirana Oximoxi: and a good experience
Zon Kwan: been here irregularly, but always nice to talk
Xirana Oximoxi: yes, I agree...

Zon Kwan: what are you mostly interested of
Xirana Oximoxi: I'm mostly interesed in Art and literature...and I enjoy learning languages...I'm finishing my studies on Linguisitcs :)
Xirana Oximoxi: and about art...I have a lot of fun here..exhibiting and also visiting other artist's works
Xirana Oximoxi: I think SL is a very specially attractive place for artists:)
Zon Kwan: nods..very creative place
Xirana Oximoxi: I'll show you a picture to see if you recognise who it is:)
--BELL--
Zon Kwan: hm
Xirana Oximoxi: moment... I look for one more easy:)
Xirana Oximoxi: the other one was Wol:)
Xirana Oximoxi: do you know him?
Zon Kwan: yes
Zon Kwan: or her
Xirana Oximoxi: ok:)
Xirana Oximoxi: ah yes..or her:)
Xirana Oximoxi: this was boxy:)

Xirana Oximoxi: what are your interests?
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Zen:) bonjour!
Zen Arado: bonjour Xirana, Zon
Xirana Oximoxi: we are talking about our main interests
Xirana Oximoxi: for me Art, literature..learning languages...
Zon Kwan: zen man,,,,,
Zen Arado: c'est tranquil aujourd'hui
Zon Kwan: heya
Xirana Oximoxi: oui:)
Xirana Oximoxi: summer and weekend...lazy day
Xirana Oximoxi: :)

Zon Kwan: i ma interested in truth

Xirana Oximoxi: I've herd you speking French today...you are improving really quick, Zen:)
Zen Arado: Zon is interested in spirituality
Zen Arado: merci ;)
Zen Arado: duolingo is good
Xirana Oximoxi: oh! interesting topic Zon...so difficult to find out sometimes
Xirana Oximoxi: or to 'delimit'

Zen Arado: what is truth?

Zon Kwan: asked Pilatus
Zen Arado: somebody said that before
Zen Arado: :)
Zon Kwan: lol
Zen Arado: Pontius Pilate
Zon Kwan: or should i say im interested in lies
Zon Kwan: because they hide it
Zon Kwan: exposing lies
Xirana Oximoxi: both are related, maybe?
Zon Kwan: nods
Zen Arado: opposite to truth is lies?
Zen Arado: lies are truth hidden or changed
Zon Kwan: like that
Zen Arado: ?
Xirana Oximoxi: not sure Zen..that's why I have said 'maybe'... we can understand the 'truth' in a more universal way
Xirana Oximoxi: or state
Zon Kwan: not truth without lie
Zen Arado: in a univeral way there is no truth
Zen Arado: onlu consensus

Zen Arado: yes all dualities need their opposite

Zon Kwan: i always mix truth and reality
Zen Arado: no light without dark
Xirana Oximoxi: do we always need to learn about things related or using the duality of bad/good, truth/lies?
Xirana Oximoxi: ok
Zen Arado: no because they are just a way of splitting reality in two
Zon Kwan: mm
Zen Arado: just what we humans do
Xirana Oximoxi: yes
Zen Arado: because it is useful
Zon Kwan: i am also interested in sin
Zen Arado: only description
Zen Arado: a Christian concept
Xirana Oximoxi: but 'reality' maybe is not so clearly separated...
Xirana Oximoxi: yes... usefull way to try to understand the world and our conceptions
Zon Kwan: yes but in buddhism too
Zen Arado: like we have a good part and a bad part and good part has to conquer bad
Zon Kwan: mara

Zon Kwan: but what is good

Zen Arado: yes..in Buddhist literature
Zen Arado: Hi boxy
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: xiri girl :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hi boxy! :)
Alfred Kelberry: purr
Alfred Kelberry: *boop*
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Alfred Kelberry: hi guys
Zon Kwan: hi alfred
Alfred Kelberry: oh, someone told me you made a portrait of woly! is it true, xiri?
Xirana Oximoxi: yes...and I've thought it was the last one I do..because it's too difficult...but she has told me she liked it and to go on with more pabbers:)
Alfred Kelberry: yes, please! do go on! :)
Xirana Oximoxi: a portrait is a matters of milimeters...
Zen Arado: good idea ;)
Alfred Kelberry: this is an awesome idea :)
Xirana Oximoxi: and my way of painting is a little more wild
Alfred Kelberry: can you show it to us? :)
Xirana Oximoxi: well...as she has liked I suppose there's no problem:)
Alfred Kelberry: yay!
Alfred Kelberry: wow! amazing!
Alfred Kelberry: woly girl!
Xirana Oximoxi: do you recognise her?
Alfred Kelberry: i love it, xiri
Alfred Kelberry: it is her!
Xirana Oximoxi: ok:)
Alfred Kelberry: clear as day :)
Zen Arado: he he great
Zen Arado: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: I hope not the 60 members of PaB want a portrait:))
Alfred Kelberry: damn, you artsy people are magical :)
Zon Kwan: nods
Zen Arado: I never look closely at avs so don't know if it a good likeness
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Alfred Kelberry: and portrait of aga? is it approved by her? :)
Xirana Oximoxi: I find more interesting to draw rl expressions...but it's also special the way we show each one here
Zen Arado: hmmm I was thinking I would like to do some figures
Zen Arado: groups
Xirana Oximoxi: each one has also a personality
Zen Arado: could take photos of ppl in SL
Alfred Kelberry: zen, paint avs you mean?
Zen Arado: yeh
Alfred Kelberry: great!
Alfred Kelberry: go for it :)
Xirana Oximoxi: yes...!! great!
Zen Arado: but as a group
Zen Arado: good practice
Alfred Kelberry: thank you, xiri. beautiful work.
Xirana Oximoxi: yw:)
Xirana Oximoxi: if I do more I am sure I will improve:)
Xirana Oximoxi: maybe:)

Xirana Oximoxi: it can be interesting to hear about what boxy'scientific mind think is 'truth' :))
Xirana Oximoxi: the topic we have started to talk
Zen Arado: my mouth looks daft
Alfred Kelberry: thank you, i'll pass on that :)
Xirana Oximoxi: ohh ok :((
Zon Kwan: i wanted to know what is good ?
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: if you mean 'good' as a general concept I suppose we really need 'bad' to understand it...and it may change depending on each culture, person...
Xirana Oximoxi: Zen...you look very handsome...don't worry!! :)
Zon Kwan: how does one define in everyday situation what is good or bad ?
Zen Arado: ty Xiri but my mouth still looks funny
Zon Kwan: to walk against red ligth or not
Zen Arado: by societal consessus
Zon Kwan: hm
Zen Arado: consensus
Xirana Oximoxi: in everyday situation we relate it to the values of our society
Zen Arado: yes
Zon Kwan: ir doesnt work in nazi germany
Xirana Oximoxi: the one we have born
Zen Arado: a different consessus
Zon Kwan: concensus was bad
Zen Arado: morals values keep changing
Zon Kwan: so individuall cannot refer to that
Alfred Kelberry: i sense eliza's presence in sl :)
Zen Arado: they did things 200 years ago we think bad now
Zon Kwan: and if you cant refer to that there, itss not universal
--BELL--
Zen Arado: relative to times
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza ;)
Zon Kwan: yes but my point is you caanot refer to society to define good act alone
Xirana Oximoxi: we do refer to that the way we have been educated in these values...but we change and also learn about other cultures
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Eliza:)
Zon Kwan: somtimes you must act differently to change thinking
Zon Kwan: hi eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Zen, Boxy, Zon, Xxiri, Bell :)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Zon Kwan: jesus was not very good in jewish society
Xirana Oximoxi: we are talking about 'truth', 'good' ... how we do to know what this terms mean
Alfred Kelberry: how are your kids, eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: oh, good topic
Zen Arado: yes...every now and then someone comes along and tells people they need to change
Zon Kwan: and how does he know
Eliza Madrigal: Kids are fine today ... son not thrilled to be doing math work already this morning but, well :)
Zon Kwan: that this is good to do
Alfred Kelberry: eh, poor kid :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: he is persuasive...or society is ready for change
Zen Arado: poor boy :(
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, demanding mom? :)
Zon Kwan: hitler was persuasive
Zon Kwan: and germany was ready for change
Zen Arado: in the UK you could bee put in prison for being gay
Eliza Madrigal: not enough probably, Boxy :)
Zen Arado: only 50 years ago
Zon Kwan: nods
Zen Arado: exactlt Zon
Zen Arado: Weimar republic was collapsing
Zon Kwan: so i cant rely on society values in defining if my act is good or not
Zen Arado: sounds like Kant
Zon Kwan: just wondering
Zon Kwan: how do i know then
Zen Arado: makes you realize there is no right or wrong except what we decide
Zon Kwan: hm
Alfred Kelberry: zon, give us an example
Zon Kwan: dont like that either
Zon Kwan: i cant just do anything
Zen Arado: well it seems the way it is
Zon Kwan: and call i t good
Zon Kwan: hm
Zon Kwan: then nothing matters
Zen Arado: why call an action anything
Zen Arado: ?
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Zen Arado: no that's nihilism
Zon Kwan: well if there is no good and bad
Xirana Oximoxi: you can do Zon...but if the society does not accept it as good you can be punished...so the rules are stablished even if they are changing all time
Zon Kwan: what matters
Zen Arado: you will do what you will do
Zen Arado: because of who you are
Zon Kwan: hm
Zon Kwan: thats fatalism ?
Zen Arado: because of the way you have been brought up
Zen Arado: enculturated
Zon Kwan: no free will ?
Alfred Kelberry: nihilists end up either in a mental penitentiary or outcasts off the grid :)
Zen Arado: free will but not as an individual
Xirana Oximoxi: we have limites free will :)
Xirana Oximoxi: limited*
Zen Arado: as part of the flow of everything else
Zon Kwan: hm
Zen Arado: everything happens because of everthing that happens
Zon Kwan: is goodness then a collective experience ?
Zen Arado: it's only if you think you aree an isolated individual that it is a problem
Zon Kwan: must go , waves
Zen Arado: goodness is only a description
Zen Arado: byee Zon
Eliza Madrigal waves and sips coffee
Eliza Madrigal: how did this conversation start? Romney vp candidate?
Zen Arado: how do I get myself into these deep issues?
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Zon! :) have a nice time
Zen Arado: ;)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: no, Zon has told he was interested in 'truth' :)
Eliza Madrigal: ooh
Xirana Oximoxi: so...the conversation has run into the duality of concepts...and so on:)
Zen Arado: yeh

Xirana Oximoxi: Eliza...what's this wonderful hat?
Eliza Madrigal: ah, sorry to be so late : )
Xirana Oximoxi: have you done it? you come from a party?
Xirana Oximoxi: np:)
Eliza Madrigal: ooh, this was passed along by Bleu from an exhibit at LEA, one moment will give LM
Xirana Oximoxi: topics are never exhausted in one session...and either in all the years of humnity asking and looking for answers:)
Zen Arado: I forgot about that
Xirana Oximoxi: ahh it's nice..ty:)
Eliza Madrigal: looking for better and better questions
Eliza Madrigal: and ways to puzzle together
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: love despite a hurricane: http://i.imgur.com/RgxzZ.jpg
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: the hats are like a game :))
Xirana Oximoxi: wonderful:))
Xirana Oximoxi: nice foto boxy!! :)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Eliza Madrigal: is it? should I look?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: up to you :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe... okay... looking...
Eliza Madrigal: sweet :)
Xirana Oximoxi: have you taken it?
Alfred Kelberry: no, never been to china
Alfred Kelberry: well, once as a kid
Alfred Kelberry: can't remember much
Eliza Madrigal: have pictures? : )
Alfred Kelberry: yes :)
Alfred Kelberry: um, in private family albums :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: well we must have found truth --- silence
Xirana Oximoxi: I must go now....have a nice day all!! and see you soon!
Zen Arado: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Eliza Madrigal: bye Xiri, nice to see you
Zen Arado: kk byee Xiri
Alfred Kelberry: xiri :)
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye! :)
Zen Arado: Nisargatta says a realized person doesn't say much
Alfred Kelberry: http://i.imgur.com/s3Zas.jpg
Zen Arado: Nisargadatta
Eliza Madrigal: nice image
Alfred Kelberry: tahiti - on my list :)

Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking about Nisargadatta's "the hooks are all yours" the other day
Zen Arado: lead boat looks like in the air
Eliza Madrigal: pristine waters... looks amazing
Zen Arado: saw a photo like that where two oceans meet
Alfred Kelberry: yes... as if floating in the air
Eliza Madrigal: but... I think anytime someone, even Nisargadatta, says "a realized person is like ___" I hesitate...
Alfred Kelberry: a true believer can not question his guru! :)
Zen Arado: it's only trying to explain something to someone
Zen Arado: not an all time truth though
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: his book is just that
Eliza Madrigal: maybe much of the issue with communicating these things is bringing them into the context of our age
Zen Arado: it wasn't that long ago :)
Eliza Madrigal: have you heard about the new film Kumare?
Zen Arado: no?
Eliza Madrigal: A guy makes himself into a guru...
Eliza Madrigal: to see who would follow him
Zen Arado: ha
Zen Arado: makes you think
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: don't follow gurus blindly
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: it is a limited release but looks good
Zen Arado: I see that happen with Zen teachers
Eliza Madrigal: blind faith in?
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: peple nearly worship them
Alfred Kelberry: to be fair, it's eventually people who make one a guru
Alfred Kelberry: there's no guru without a following
Zen Arado: I was amazed at the way people genuflected to Ringu Tulku last year when he came into the room
Zen Arado: I wasn't that impressed with him
Zen Arado: ok nothing more
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Eliza Madrigal: well this is what I mean about 'our age' because of course that seems out of place in a way - however there is some value to submerging in another context...
Eliza Madrigal: ancient
Eliza Madrigal: similar to SL... one can make a world
Zen Arado: it's my attitude to teachers too
Eliza Madrigal: and immerse in ritual

Zen Arado: learn what they have to teach and move on

Zen Arado: teachers should make themselves redundant
Eliza Madrigal: If I elaborated on my feelings there are a bazillion contradictions on the surface
Zen Arado: not make people dependent on them
Zen Arado: life is ultimately inexplicable
Zen Arado: I think
Alfred Kelberry: i'm glad the importance of context is recognized here :)
Eliza Madrigal: well one depends in a different way, in a guru relationship (is one way to look at it) going beyond a level of trust that feels comfortable
Zen Arado: that's my explanation :)
Zen Arado: we need them at the start
Eliza Madrigal is still starting : )
Zen Arado: speeds learning

Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking this morning about what an awful meditator I am, technically
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: how do you know?
Zen Arado: you think there is a perfect way to meditate?
Eliza Madrigal: this again is a surface assessment, because there is a way in which all is meditation (View)
Zen Arado: some days my mind is quiet
Eliza Madrigal: and in that sense, I aspire to live my life from that place
Zen Arado: other days I just sit and my mind churns away the whole time
Eliza Madrigal: however, I do think there is value to discipline and sitting in a way that allows one to stay - stability meditation wise
Eliza Madrigal: think I am awful in that sense
Zen Arado: just getting on the cushion
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: yeh that needs discipline
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, again, if put it in a context of a particular school, you can assess your ability to meditate. but you if refer to it in general, then there's nothing to relate your experience.
Eliza Madrigal: for me my sense is that everything is 'done' or 'here' or however you want to say it, but I won't see that unless 'Stopping' is center in my life
Eliza Madrigal: true Boxy
Zen Arado: but I don't find that as hard as some seem to
Alfred Kelberry: this is why i think it's important to give context when yo udiscuss such matters
Eliza Madrigal: well there are layers of context
Eliza Madrigal: as in a literary sense
Alfred Kelberry: one step at a time :)
Zen Arado: Tibetan meditation is different from Zen meditation
Zen Arado: and Theravdin
Eliza Madrigal: not necessarily.... with these things things can take their own orders rather than those you try to impose (I find)
Zen Arado: I prefer Joan Tollifson's description
Eliza Madrigal: re one step at a time : )
Eliza Madrigal: which is that Zen?
Zen Arado: just sit quietly
Zen Arado: forget all the techniques
Eliza Madrigal: I think we already come full of techniques...
Eliza Madrigal: so sometimes techniques are helpful to loosen those
Zen Arado: most sessible description I ever saw
Zen Arado: sensible
Eliza Madrigal: not easy to just 'forget techniques' if one doesn't see them first
Eliza Madrigal: no method still a method
Zen Arado: you should see the way Zen adds them
Zen Arado: minute detail
Eliza Madrigal: ritual
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, there's a start somewhere. then you take steps as you go. you don't know where it ends.
Zen Arado: exactly boxy
Eliza Madrigal: : ) or it is like inception and you realize in the middle 'how did I get here'
Zen Arado: the road unfolds as you walk it
Eliza Madrigal: I feel all my choices have come after I was already in them in some way
Eliza Madrigal: strange thing to say but it is 'true' to my experience
Zen Arado: we try to plan ahead too much or try to find the 'right way'
Zen Arado: yes
--BELL--
Zen Arado: I better go make dinner
Eliza Madrigal: : ) dine well Zen, thanks for the talk
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, it seems like a good buddhist approach - try and see :)
Zen Arado: thanks byee
Alfred Kelberry: eat well
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes - notice what you notice (ala Alan Ginsberg ala Eos)
Alfred Kelberry: ok, off me go
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now :)
Alfred Kelberry: thank you for the company
Eliza Madrigal: you too, play well