2013.07.01 07:00 - On compassion and empathy

The Guardian for this meeting was szavanna Resident. The comments are by szavanna Resident.

szavanna Resident: 's current display-name is "Sunshine".
DR42 Resident: 's current display-name is "-- Maude --".
szavanna Resident: hi Maude coming in a moment
szavanna Resident: :)
szavanna Resident: sorry for that interruption :)
szavanna Resident: how are you doing today :)
DR42 Resident sits quietly
DR42 Resident: Tired.
szavanna Resident: smiles
szavanna Resident: hmm just relax and enjoy some quietness
DR42 Resident: And you?
szavanna Resident: I am also a bit tired
szavanna Resident: had some people that I had to console
szavanna Resident: and it gets a bit tiring
DR42 Resident: Sorry to hear that.
szavanna Resident: hi Unsji come sit
szavanna Resident: °͜°
szavanna Resident: brb one moment again
Uns Mistwalker: hello suni and Maude.
Uns Mistwalker: what is it that gets tiring, Maude?
DR42 Resident: Health, mostly. Causes lots of stress.
Uns Mistwalker: nods.
szavanna Resident: sorry °͜° RL is a little busy
szavanna Resident: but all quiet now
szavanna Resident: reading back
Uns Mistwalker: kinda quiet here too.
szavanna Resident: :)
szavanna Resident: shall we stay quiet till bell?
szavanna Resident: and then we start when it ends
szavanna Resident: :)
Uns Mistwalker: whatever seems most appropriate.
szavanna Resident: yes lets just enjoy a little bit if quiet

--BELL--

szavanna Resident: how was that :)
DR42 Resident sits quietly and listens.
Uns Mistwalker: gave me time to research the questions on my own.
Uns Mistwalker: http://www.differencebetween.net/lan...nd-compassion/
szavanna Resident: ah great ty Uns :)
szavanna Resident: clicks
szavanna Resident: Maude you don't need to follow if you would just like to relax
DR42 Resident: TY, but I rather be active once I wake up.
DR42 Resident: It's more like presque vu
Uns Mistwalker: I appreciate that the text I linked to contends that empathy and compassion are the same emotional feeling.
szavanna Resident: °͜°
szavanna Resident: reading ...
Uns Mistwalker: but with a slightly different cognitive framework
DR42 Resident: I have fompassion for the Marathon bombers, but no empathy.
szavanna Resident: listens
DR42 Resident: Compassion. (Cannot type this early)
szavanna Resident: sometimes its not so easy for me grasp - since I am from Hungary
szavanna Resident: so trying to feel it ...
Uns Mistwalker: I think I feel both, even in that case.
szavanna Resident: Compassion is a word used to express the same feeling as empathy. Yet when you feel compassion, you have more of a desire to take action. You can understand a person’s pain. You place yourself in the shoes of the individual, but you feel that you want to achieve more. Compassion is an emotion which calls for action. If a person is distressed you want to provide the individual with comfort; you want to take action to ensure a positive outcome.
Uns Mistwalker: I think this is a rather ideological statement, Sunshine.
szavanna Resident: can you explain Uns?
DR42 Resident: Compassion in the Buddhist sense, but I do not share any of the feelings they would have had in the decision to bomb the event.
Uns Mistwalker: let me address Maude's comment first.
szavanna Resident: Isn't empathy - when I feel the other person's pain or sadness?
szavanna Resident: I am able to put myself in his or her shoes
szavanna Resident: I am not so used to using the word empathy
szavanna Resident: ok Uns °͜°
szavanna Resident: smiles
DR42 Resident: Sunshine, that is what I feel it means.
Uns Mistwalker: I was watching my daughter play soccer. She was viciously fouled... elbow to the neck, by another girl, and the referee missed it. This overwhelming, primal, rage arose in me.....I was shaking.... I wanted to KILL that girl on the spot.
szavanna Resident: ok
szavanna Resident: listens
szavanna Resident: hmm you felt anger when seeing someone hurt
Uns Mistwalker: So... when those guys watch what is happening to their community members....being bombed, and starved, and so forth....I can understand how the rage builds in them...and I share it to some extent.
Uns Mistwalker: So I'd say I feel empathy toward them.
DR42 Resident: Compassion, for me, would be understanding of the pain the girls went thru, or was taught, that doing the foul was an acceptable action.
DR42 Resident: It does not drive me to action.
szavanna Resident: I think it is very important to try and feel for both parties
Uns Mistwalker: then....you would feel....empathy toward them, since there was no call to action...but not compassion, according to the article's distinction.
szavanna Resident: feel empathy for both sides
Uns Mistwalker: Oh, I agree utterly, Sunshine.
DR42 Resident: Who wrote what you posted? What was the context? Is it their view, or the result of scholarly research?
szavanna Resident: I was just scanning it rhough quick let me see
Uns Mistwalker: I don't really see who wrote it. I don't consider it
DR42 Resident: I disagree with their definitions of empathy and compassion.
Uns Mistwalker: definitive...but a starting point.
Uns Mistwalker: yes, I think I do too. I think there is an ideological agenda here in the article.

--BELL--

Uns Mistwalker: a privileging of the term compassion
Uns Mistwalker: how do you see the difference Maude?
szavanna Resident: ponders :)
szavanna Resident: so here is what the article says in the summary
szavanna Resident: 

Summary
> Many people use both words to explain the same emotion.
> Although thought of as the same, Empathy and Compassion are different forms of the same emotion.
> Empathy and Compassion require you to imaginatively experience the same feelings as the person or situation in question.
> Empathy is seen as a passive emotional response. Compassion requires you to take positive action to alleviate a person’s pain or situation.

szavanna Resident: according to this - these two words are really very different
szavanna Resident: oh hi Eosji :)
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
szavanna Resident: and I see dreamji coming
Bleu Oleander: hiya :)
DR42 Resident: As I stated, I have compassion for the bomber, but certainly feel no call to action to support him or assuage his pain.
szavanna Resident: °͜°
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Sunji! & Maude & Uns
szavanna Resident: welcome :)
Uns Mistwalker: it's true.... but I'm not sure I buy the way the distinction used.
DR42 Resident: ηαмαѕтє
szavanna Resident: _/\_
Eos Amaterasu: hi bleuji
szavanna Resident: we are talking about empathy and compassion
Bleu Oleander: ah ok :)
szavanna Resident: Uns posted a link to an article for us
szavanna Resident: may be I post it again for you
Eos Amaterasu: perhaps empathy is that you have healthy mirror neurons
Eos Amaterasu: what the other feels, you feel
Zen Arado: 's current display-name is "Zen".
szavanna Resident: http://www.differencebetween.net/lan...nd-compassion/
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
szavanna Resident: Hi ZenDJi
szavanna Resident: °͜° welcome
Eos Amaterasu: HI ZenJi
DR42 Resident: http://www.pbs.org/thebuddha/blog/20...euroscience-a/
szavanna Resident: we are talking about empathy and compassion
szavanna Resident: and the different between them
Zen Arado: and not pity?
szavanna Resident: lets focus on two for now °͜°
Uns Mistwalker: Yes, Eos, I do think that empathy is most often used more with a medical or psychological frame.
szavanna Resident: unless you wanna talk about pity too :)
Eos Amaterasu: I also meant that metaphorically
Eos Amaterasu: after all, we (aka life) have created our own mirror neurons
DR42 Resident: That article (paragraph 3) supports the view in the original posted url
Zen Arado: but you never really understand anyone else
Eos Amaterasu: do you even understand yourself?
Zen Arado: I have no idea what it's lie to be blind
Zen Arado: so how can I have compassion in any meaningful sense for a blind person?
Eos Amaterasu: thank ji for analogy
Zen Arado: no not even my 'self' Eos
szavanna Resident: sorry was away a little
szavanna Resident: :)
Zen Arado: does compassion need undestanding or just feeling?
Bleu Oleander: I think we try to have compassion and empathy for others ... it's not perfect but we can do the best we can
Zen Arado: or is it just a fuzzy warmth to others?
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes we overshoot - projecting impoverished senses on those who lack our sense, but may have their own
Bleu Oleander: no matter what you call it, if it leads to positive action towards others it's a good thing
szavanna Resident: its more of the fuzzy-ness I think :)
Zen Arado: but if it is just a feeling can we manufacture it? and is that then genuine?
Zen Arado: pretend compassion?
Uns Mistwalker: Zen, I'd say there are levels of development of these sensitivities.
Eos Amaterasu: takes a lot of insight, embodied tangilbly, to not manufacture our feelings
Zen Arado: or I should fell compassion so I will act like I felt it?
DR42 Resident: What of detachment? Being detached and compassionate? Or, empathetic and emotionally involved?
Eos Amaterasu: that's what happens most of the time
Bleu Oleander: for later perhaps: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...s&emc=rss&_r=0
Uns Mistwalker: you should act compassionate so you can feel it.
szavanna Resident: hmm so many good points
Zen Arado: have never been good with that argument Uns
Zen Arado: remember it from Christianity
szavanna Resident: in Africa a typical problem is
Zen Arado: act and then the feeling follows
Uns Mistwalker: neuroscience backing for it now.
Zen Arado: maybe
Eos Amaterasu: how about a lab session? pick one, empathy or compassion, and observe how you experience it, or not, in the next 90 seconds
szavanna Resident: people want to help Africans - because they are poor and hungry ...
szavanna Resident: but its not always the case
Eos Amaterasu: empathy and/or compassion by your own felt definition
szavanna Resident: they don't always need help at all
Uns Mistwalker: recent study showed women who had taken botox injections were less able to feel empathy toward others.
Eos Amaterasu: numb
szavanna Resident: so may be one can say - that there is wise compassion and ..not so wise compassion
Uns Mistwalker: because they couldn't move their face muscles!
DR42 Resident: Sun, your words have changed my view.
szavanna Resident: oh :)
Zen Arado: should a person who isn't empathic or compassionate if they don't feel it?
szavanna Resident: how so?
Eos Amaterasu: it's true - hard to experience the word "smile" without face muscles
Zen Arado: be condemned I meant to add
Uns Mistwalker: depends on their behavior, Zen.
Uns Mistwalker: definition of Sociopath includes lack of empathy.
Zen Arado: yes
DR42 Resident: The example you gave about Africa caused me to question my beliefs of the difference between empathy and compassion.

--BELL--

szavanna Resident: brb :)
Zen Arado: so someone who is naturally compassionate is praised for what seems normal to them
szavanna Resident: back :)
Eos Amaterasu: I was experiencing my irritation and lack of compassion :-)
Zen Arado: wb Sunji :)
szavanna Resident: ty :)
Eos Amaterasu: start where you are
szavanna Resident: Maude - its a huge problem here as I see it
DR42 Resident: I guess I still disagree with the basic statement that compassion includes a call to action.
Eos Amaterasu: maybe the smiley is baby compassion toward self
Zen Arado: Aren't we as humans set up to be naturally compassionate to those closest to us, our family and friends and a weakening as the circle gets wider
szavanna Resident: I feel wary of people coming to help and cause sooo much trouble ....
Bleu Oleander: neither include a call to action .... that's the problem with simply talking about it :)
Zen Arado: And also conditioned to feel uncompassionate and even enmity to other tribes
szavanna Resident: hmm not sure about that Zenji
Eos Amaterasu: yeah, action may be an overly trigger-happy response (driven more by my wanting to _do_ something... orbe seen to do....)
szavanna Resident: or may be hmm
szavanna Resident: conditioned by?
DR42 Resident: I can be compassionate yet still be detached in my view, not emotionally invested.
Eos Amaterasu: from the Mahabharata: "when one prefers one's own children to those of another, then war is not far away"
Zen Arado: That is an evolutionary survival trait because we don't want to waste our energy trying to be compassionate to everyone when it is impossible?
szavanna Resident: yes I think so Maude
Eos Amaterasu: It's also one of the practices of the bodhisattva to work with that very point
Eos Amaterasu: attachment to one's own is not necessarily the same as compassion
Uns Mistwalker: action may stem from a privileging of one's worldview to the extent one feels one has the right to interfere in other's lives "for their own good"
Bleu Oleander: widening our circles of compassion is a challenge
Zen Arado: But as I always say people who do compassion expanding practices are those who already feel a need to be compassionate
Eos Amaterasu: in mayayana buddhism the view of emptiness - no personal stickyness - is seen to be inseperable, at the root, from compassion
Uns Mistwalker: yes Bleu. I think sl can help with that....though I have also seen a cultishness develop here too.
szavanna Resident: can you tell more Eos
Eos Amaterasu: "the feeling of compassion" ≠ "compassion"
Zen Arado: And the people who need to be compassionate don't even feel any need like that
Bleu Oleander: agree Uns
DR42 Resident: "one has the right to interfere in other's lives "for their own good"" is interesting. What if the person is a member of my community and they have expressed the pain?
Zen Arado: If they have asked for it it is different
Uns Mistwalker: wee see this all the time......"care-taking" keeps people in co-dependent relationships. True compassion empowers them to take care of themselves.
szavanna Resident: yes Unsji
Bleu Oleander: not always true Uns
Bleu Oleander: often not a level playing field that enables people to take care of themselves
Eos Amaterasu: It's hard to avoid the need to see clearly one's own self-protecting and self-projecting games
Uns Mistwalker: hahaha....True dat, Bleu!
Zen Arado: we can only be as compassionate as the amount of energy we have dictates?
Uns Mistwalker: Agreed Eos
Uns Mistwalker: i think probably so, Zen.
DR42 Resident: Have the people in Africa asked for the help? They are in my community, as are the Afghans, the people in Burma, etc.,
Eos Amaterasu: that's an approach to letting ourselves be in "emptiness" (ie, not driven blindly by our own auto and semi-auto thoughts and feelings)
szavanna Resident: hmm Maude there is no clear answer for that
szavanna Resident: I think
szavanna Resident: lots problems due to colonialism and other problems
Zen Arado: But isn't compassion primarily a feeling and not something logical and intellectual?
Zen Arado: How much thinking is involved in it?
Bleu Oleander: interesting conversation here: http://billmoyers.com/segment/greg-k...rican-poverty/
Eos Amaterasu: neither feeling nor thought
szavanna Resident: but if any help arrives - it must be done in a way that people are empowered to restart their own lives
Uns Mistwalker: compassion = being ?
Eos Amaterasu: as primordial as awareness
Bleu Oleander: both feelings and thought I would say
Eos Amaterasu: manifests through feelings and thoughts
DR42 Resident: Sun, I agree with that.
Eos Amaterasu: but its heart?......
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, Uns, I think that's really close to it....
Zen Arado: The word comes from the Latin con passio or something and denotes fellow feeling feeling of being with someone
DR42 Resident: All to often, the "Help" is given, not out of compassion, but out of greed. A desire to advance ones own goals, not the goals of the person being helped.
szavanna Resident: I think to be compassionate - one needs to be calm and may be detached in a sense
Zen Arado: to me it means sharing someone else's feelings
Eos Amaterasu: "deep in my heart I know there is no help I can bring" - (from To Ramono (Dylan))
Eos Amaterasu: Ramona
Zen Arado: I don't think surgeons fear much compassion for a patient they operate very coldly and that is necessary I think
Bleu Oleander: no matter what you call it if it doesn't promote caring for others it's not working
Zen Arado: but you can call that compassion in a way to – that detachment because that might be the best in those circumstances
szavanna Resident: hmm yes Zenji
Eos Amaterasu: perhaps.... if you don't just care about yourself, there is not just a blankness left
Zen Arado: but we have two care for ourselves as well
szavanna Resident: yes it all starts with ourselves
DR42 Resident: Compassion for oneself rakns higher than compassion for others, in my book.
szavanna Resident: yes I think that also Maude
Eos Amaterasu: without that you're likely projecting your un-examined desires and beliefs
Bleu Oleander: hard to judge when others feel compassionate ... focus for me is how I feel about others and whether or not I can find ways to help those in need of help
Zen Arado: if I care for myself properly I won't be such a burden to others in the end
Uns Mistwalker: in my tradition, the highest view is one in which there are no others, and no self either.

--BELL--

Zen Arado: exactly Uns
Bleu Oleander: that's not how I experience my universe ... there are definitely others and I feel like a self that can choose to be a positive contributor
Eos Amaterasu: no self no other could be suicide armageddon :-)
szavanna Resident: yes its hard for me to think of this as no self
Eos Amaterasu: but that's not what you mean, probably
Zen Arado: The idea that we are all separate beings can lead to us needing to work up compassion for each other being but if we see ourselves as all just manifestations of a whole compassion is just natural
DR42 Resident hears: "I don't know if I will do great, but I know I can do better." from the TV.
Eos Amaterasu: praise and blame
Eos Amaterasu: "compassion" toward other countries is usually another word for colonialism
Uns Mistwalker: i have heard it said that every step of spiritual development is mirrored by something that outwardly looks very similar, but is actually psychopathology
Zen Arado: so if we don't see ourselves as separate we won't have to work up any compassion it will just be there
Bleu Oleander: to me there's no point in arguing over definitions ... point is to do what it takes that leads to positive actions, whether you call yourself no self or self
DR42 Resident: Eos, yes, and I think the US is one of the worst there is in that respect, today.
Uns Mistwalker: Sure, Blue.... but who decides what is 'postive"
Bleu Oleander: exactly
Bleu Oleander: so gradually the world is coming to some common ideas of kindness and caring
szavanna Resident: 's current display-name is "Sunshine".
Zen Arado: wb Sunji
Bleu Oleander: hopefully :)
DR42 Resident: wb
szavanna Resident: ty power went out for a moment
Eos Amaterasu: we are less and less isolated from each other
Eos Amaterasu: (look at us here :-)
DR42 Resident: We seem to have dropped "and pity" from the topic.
Bleu Oleander: so even in social media we should practice being kinder and more considerate of others
Uns Mistwalker: oh! cuz EVERYBODY knows.....that's BAD
szavanna Resident: or even in SL Bleuji
szavanna Resident: °͜°
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
Uns Mistwalker: sure, Bleu. But there are compelling psychological reasons why that does not tend to happen...the factors of "disinhibition"
Eos Amaterasu: gotta segue out, thnx folks!
DR42 Resident: Bleu, yes, social media seems to give an implicit permission to be rude and crass.
Bleu Oleander: but that doesn't mean we can try
Uns Mistwalker: thanks for your particiaption Eos
szavanna Resident: take care Eos
szavanna Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: bye Eos
Zen Arado: to me pity seems generated by even more separation where one party feels superior to the other, type of compassion from looking down on someone
szavanna Resident: have a great week
Zen Arado: bye eos
DR42 Resident: Yes, zen. No compassion for yourself.
Bleu Oleander: I think I know when i'm feeling kinder or more caring towards someone ... even before I attempt to define the feeling by calling it compassion
Uns Mistwalker: pity seems to me to definitely come from a 'one-up' stance
szavanna Resident: ( while we are chatting - I am also waiting for those that wanna ask building questions :)
Bleu Oleander: lol
DR42 Resident: Can pity exist in a buddhist world?
Bleu Oleander: compassionate Sunji
szavanna Resident: so let me know if you need any help
szavanna Resident: ;p
Bleu Oleander: :P
Bleu Oleander: I must get going .... thanks all for the conversation
Zen Arado: maybe we could just drop the whole concept of compassion and just act when we see someone needs help
szavanna Resident: ty Bleuji :) hugs ;))
Bleu Oleander: will check out the dome for more dreams
Bleu Oleander: hugs :)
szavanna Resident: Iam waiting for the students still
Zen Arado: bye bleu
szavanna Resident: :)
Uns Mistwalker: I shall move too.
Zen Arado: bye uns
szavanna Resident: ok Unsji ty for the great chat
szavanna Resident: lots good points to ponder
Zen Arado: yes
szavanna Resident: :)
DR42 Resident: Isn't acting when one sees the need for help "compassion?"
Zen Arado: or maybe to stop pondering :-)
szavanna Resident: I am here till 9am
Zen Arado: and just see the need as Maude says
szavanna Resident: smiles at Zenji
szavanna Resident: see the need?
Zen Arado: and we don't have to call it anything then and pat ourselves on the back for doing it :-)
szavanna Resident: need for?
szavanna Resident: ;o)
Zen Arado: any need at all that we feel we can give someone help with
szavanna Resident pats everyone on the back :)
Uns Mistwalker: (octo-mom)
Zen Arado: :-)
szavanna Resident: I think that its not even good to call it help
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: it's coming back to the way we label everything and make it into concepts
szavanna Resident: its more like ...just knowledge flowing naturally
Zen Arado: and it is just an action that should come naturally
szavanna Resident: or food
szavanna Resident: or whatever
Zen Arado: not even the feeling
Zen Arado: yes
--BELL--
szavanna Resident: without noticing
DR42 Resident wonders how many of the 1%ers are sociopaths.
szavanna Resident: what is a sociopath?
Uns Mistwalker: a lot! maude.
Uns Mistwalker: generally antisocial personality disordered people...
szavanna Resident: kk
Uns Mistwalker: are found in greatest concentrations....
Zen Arado: people who don't feel empathy? I don't know what the differences between that and a cycle path though
Uns Mistwalker: in the prisons, and in the boardrooms.
Zen Arado: psychopaths :-)
DR42 Resident: Lacking empathy.
Uns Mistwalker: there are different kinds of psychopaths.
Uns Mistwalker: a sociopath is one kind.
Zen Arado: I heard that barristers are mostly psychopaths because that gives them an outlet for their condition
Zen Arado: they can be as cruel in their questioning as they like
Zen Arado: I don't think people with Asperger's feel much empathy either
DR42 Resident: I think a simplified distinction might be the sociopath has no empathy while the psychopath has none and minipulates others to get what they desire.
Zen Arado: mostly they have to act to be like other people
Zen Arado: in social situations
Zen Arado: are yes I think I heard a distinction like that sometime maude
szavanna Resident: what causes this kind of behaviour?
Uns Mistwalker: there are lots of different flavors of crazy.
szavanna Resident: lack of compassion and empathy
Zen Arado: it's to do with howthey manipulate others
Uns Mistwalker: there are probably genetic pre-dispositions, but almost certainly...early childhood experience plays a big role.
Zen Arado: assuming there is a "normal" :-)'
szavanna Resident: :)
szavanna Resident: no there isn't
szavanna Resident: or is there
Uns Mistwalker: normal = able to shut up and keep going to work.
szavanna Resident: hmm
Zen Arado: hmm don't think I'm normal then :-)
szavanna Resident: ;p
Uns Mistwalker: me neither.
szavanna Resident: I am sooo not normal
DR42 Resident: "I am normal, for some value of 'normal'."
Uns Mistwalker: on either count.
szavanna Resident: it would be boring also
szavanna Resident: so better not
szavanna Resident: :P
szavanna Resident: Zenji before its time for you to cook
Zen Arado: maybe nobody in Second Life is normal
szavanna Resident: anything I can help with?
szavanna Resident: lol yes
szavanna Resident: once you are in SL
Zen Arado: I was going to try to upload a couple of photographs and arrange them some way
szavanna Resident: and what happened
Zen Arado: I have one of an open road and one of someone sitting in the back seat of a car
szavanna Resident: bottom of drawer :)
Zen Arado: nothing I just haven't done it yet
szavanna Resident: okok
Zen Arado: because everyone talks too much and invites me to dances :-)
szavanna Resident: what
szavanna Resident: unacceptable!
szavanna Resident: crazy peeps
szavanna Resident: well actually you are a DJ
szavanna Resident: so the prob starts with you
szavanna Resident: ;D
Uns Mistwalker: thank you all.
Zen Arado: but I got as far as finding two photographs
szavanna Resident: so don't blame the zulu
szavanna Resident: ;D
Zen Arado: and I was watching Glastonbury Festival all weekend
szavanna Resident: take care Unsji ;))
Zen Arado: byee uns
DR42 Resident: I must depart for RL chores.
szavanna Resident: ty for the great discussion
Zen Arado: and maude
szavanna Resident: see you soon Maude
DR42 Resident: Yes, good today...
szavanna Resident: lots to learn today
szavanna Resident: ;))
Zen Arado: of yes dinner time again
szavanna Resident: :)
szavanna Resident: I am eating apples
szavanna Resident: and will post log
szavanna Resident: and ty for coming yesterday
Zen Arado: I think I'll just make an egg to fit inside the one that storm has and put some photos and it
szavanna Resident: it was lots fun
Zen Arado: or maybe half an egg
szavanna Resident: wanna check out the dreams?
szavanna Resident: at the dome
Zen Arado: yes it was but I stayed too late
Zen Arado: I looked at them last night
Zen Arado: just to see
szavanna Resident: ahh
szavanna Resident: I haven't yet