2013.07.01 13:00 - Sight of the Openness

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: Hello Catrina!
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hello Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: I was enjoying this morning's session a short while ago... compassion and empathy... much thoughtfulness
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I was reading it as well, wishing I had dropped in after all (did house cleaning and book work instead) :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: I feel like that when I read those sessions but also simultaneously feel that if I'd been there maybe I'd have sent it another way, so am benefited by holding still and listening
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: what came to mind/heart for you as you were reading?
Catrinamonblue Resident: a bit of confirmation of how I was thinking about the two in comparison to a situation I have been in
Eliza Madrigal: regarding "action" ?
Catrinamonblue Resident: feeling that while the other person felt empathy for my situation they did not feel compassion as they made no action to help or correct when they could have
Eliza Madrigal: I see

Bleu Oleander: hiya Eliza, Cat :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu! :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bleu :)
Eliza Madrigal: Cat and I were just mentioning this morning's session... quite rich and interesting
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bleu Oleander: ah ok
Eliza Madrigal: and ahhh I see your face much more clearly than last with your new appearance bleu :) lovely
Eliza Madrigal: star dust
Bleu Oleander: oh ty!
Bleu Oleander: wearing the universe
Catrinamonblue Resident: looks at beautiful Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: ty Cat :D
Catrinamonblue Resident: yw :)

Eliza Madrigal: Compassion seems an organic manifestation to me
Eliza Madrigal: whereas empathy something available to tap into intentionally
Bleu Oleander: I don't really make a distinction between the two
Catrinamonblue Resident: I see a distinction but really only because of personal experience

Bleu Oleander: i've come to both intentionally it seems if I even make a distinction which is which

Eliza Madrigal: I agreed too with Eos's distinction that compassion doesn't necessarily have a feeling of compassion
Bleu Oleander: I do sense a feeling of compassion
Bleu Oleander: hi Zon
Zon Kwan: hi all
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Zon
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon :) We're talking about empathy and compassion
Zon Kwan: ah
Zon Kwan: is there difference ?
Bleu Oleander: of the two words I feel i'm more inclined to use compassion when I feel it and empathy when talking more abstractly about the concept
Eliza Madrigal: well... like one can be with a friend and can be sharing problems and giving advice, and that helps, just that awareness and sharing... but then compassion feels like there is available response "passion with"
Bleu Oleander: perhaps that's due to my experience and reading involving both terms
Eliza Madrigal: that makes sense
Zon Kwan: compassion means more emotions
Zon Kwan: ?

Catrinamonblue Resident: My thought was that while compassion has empathy as a component empathy does not necessarily have compassion

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aggers :)
Eliza Madrigal: interesting Cat, I may agree
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Aggers :)
Agatha Macbeth waves
Bleu Oleander: "empathy" is used a lot recently in discussions of evolution of morality ... "compassion" seems to be used more with spiritual conversations
Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers
Zon Kwan: hi agatha
Eliza Madrigal nods Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Hello grey people

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: http://www.npr.org/2011/11/18/142512...on-for-empathy
Zon Kwan: difference between compassion and sympathy ?

Catrinamonblue Resident: Wikipedia - Empathy is the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another sentient or fictional being. One may need to have a certain amount of empathy before being able to experience accurate sympathy or compassion.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Wikipedia - Compassion is the understanding or empathy for the suffering of others. The etymology of "compassion" is Latin, meaning "co-suffering." More involved than simple empathy, compassion commonly gives rise to an active desire to alleviate another's suffering
Catrinamonblue Resident: some definitions to work off?

Eliza Madrigal: I thought the link/study was interesting - that we pick up on which stranger in a crowd may be likely to hear us/help ... but whether that empathy rises to compassion may be less easy to tell?
Zon Kwan: compassion seems to be close to sympathy

Bleu Oleander: the important issue for me is does either lead to positive action?
Eliza Madrigal: I think in compassion, the other is truly taken on as oneself
Catrinamonblue Resident: can inaction be a positive action?
Zon Kwan: perhaps the idea is not to let others make you prison of their emotions
Zon Kwan: but able to help
Bleu Oleander: sure Cat
Eliza Madrigal: yes... it isn't necessarily giving someone what they think they want
Eliza Madrigal: or what one thinks they should want :)

Agatha Macbeth: Being a chameleon only works if you stay still :p
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bleu Oleander: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: (feels tied back to the previous question of when t wait and when to act :))
Eliza Madrigal thinks about that and smiles

Zon Kwan: empathy means ..know how the other feels..then act the way you think is right
Bleu Oleander: I also think it's difficult to declare oneself compassionate or empathetic ... seems it should be judged by behavior not by words?
Eliza Madrigal nods
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: and time
Bleu Oleander: time?
Eliza Madrigal: Also I think compassion supplies the resources, when appearing.. so not really something one can take 'credit' for

Bleu Oleander: you're speaking about compassion like it's not coming from someone?
Bleu Oleander: a separate entity?
Eliza Madrigal: well, not exactly but... hm...
Agatha Macbeth: Hm :)
Eliza Madrigal: as though the person is open to the expression
Eliza Madrigal: but can't necessarily contain it
Zon Kwan: compassion is the other side of emptyness
Eliza Madrigal: and 'it' isn't right either :)
Bleu Oleander: my own personal thought is that I would not want "credit" for any compassionate behavior of mine
Eliza Madrigal: whereas I do think people are naturally empathetic
Eliza Madrigal: say more Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: I don't really feel like I want anything in return for a compassionate behavior I exhibit
Bleu Oleander: some do I realize

Agatha Macbeth: Hello Maude
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maude :))
DR42 Resident: hi
Catrinamonblue Resident: I agree Eliza that people are naturally empathetic but that it is a passive reaction where compassion is an active reaction

Bleu Oleander: but I do feel that compassion is a product of my experience, my feelings and some rational thought thrown in too
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Maude
Zon Kwan: hi maude
Eliza Madrigal: I am with you on that Bleu too.. do feel it, or one's own receptivity can be cultivated

Zon Kwan: so compassion is active empathy ?

Eliza Madrigal: I like that, Zon
Eliza Madrigal: I'd say empathy let loose
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: I think we all use the terms slightly differently ... words are squishy
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Agatha Macbeth: Mm
Zon Kwan: nods
Zon Kwan: point is.. feel and act
Catrinamonblue Resident: and if there is a failure to act?
Zon Kwan: thats an action too

DR42 Resident: The difficulty I have is that I feel that empathy implies some amount of sharing or understanding the other persons situation while compassion may not.
Agatha Macbeth: True
Zon Kwan: why not ?
Eliza Madrigal: ahhh nice distinction Maude
Bleu Oleander: I think compassion does imply some kind of understanding even if non-consciously
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Zon Kwan: hm

Bleu Oleander: what would be an example of compassion that didn't show understanding?
Eliza Madrigal: not necessarily surface understanding
Zon Kwan: i call that sympathy
Bleu Oleander: these words have very fuzzy edges
Zon Kwan: lol

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: much cross-over
DR42 Resident: Compassion for the marathon bomber, but I do not understand his situation.
Zon Kwan: no sympathy for him
Bleu Oleander: I wouldn't say I have compassion for him ... perhaps feel sorry that his life led him to act in that way
Catrinamonblue Resident: earlier I said [13:14] Catrinamonblue: My thought was that while compassion has empathy as a component empathy does not necessarily have compassion. Which, on the surface looks opposite to what you are saying Maude. Maybe we are having different definitions?
DR42 Resident: Yes, and my definitions are in flux.
Eliza Madrigal nods... I feel sorrow for the confusion, both in 'the whole world situation' and in the person's life

Catrinamonblue Resident: my feeling is that compassion calls for action while empathy is a passive sharing of emotion
Bleu Oleander: to me the important thing is how to come to be kinder and more caring towards others no matter what you call it
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Bleu :)
Eliza Madrigal: the distinctions are good to draw though, for me, because somehow I feel that doing exercises toward compassion matters
Bleu Oleander: so how to move past the conversation and start living a compassionate, empathetic life?
Eliza Madrigal: I can't be sure that when the moment arises I will be responsive, but perhaps more likely if I've developed strong intention

DR42 Resident: Yes. For me, compassion does not call for action, it is more about opening the tenderness of the heart, accepting without understanding.
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bleu Oleander: for me it's all about understanding
Bleu Oleander: understanding others
Bleu Oleander: and that their lives are not so different than mine
Eliza Madrigal: that feels the base of compassion... willingness to understand
Bleu Oleander: yes to me too
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes

DR42 Resident: Can I have compassion for the marathon bomber if I have no understanding of his motivation?
Eliza Madrigal: so.. tenderness...
Bleu Oleander: what do you mean by that Maude?
Eliza Madrigal: does one search for something in themselves they recognize in the other?

Bleu Oleander: what are u feeling that you would call compassion?
DR42 Resident: "willingness to understand", not necessarily understanding.
Catrinamonblue Resident: found another quote to share
Eliza Madrigal nods...

Catrinamonblue Resident: “The word compassion comes from (com-passion = compassion, to suffer, to suffer with, to suffer with other persons); that’s where the word patience comes from (patience = patior, “to suffer”). To be patient is to experience the pain of your life. And when you experience it with somebody else, you can be compassionate.” From Henri Nouwen’s Spiritual Formation

                            [spontaneous quiet]

Catrinamonblue Resident: didn't mean to be a conversation stopper :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zon Kwan: similar to sympathy
Agatha Macbeth: Thought I was going to crash :p

Zon Kwan: i dont think thats good
Zon Kwan: to suffer with
Eliza Madrigal: one thing that is hard to articulate is that sometimes the compassionate response is not responding.. brought up before but maybe that's a good focus
Zon Kwan: then the suffering increases
Bleu Oleander: not responding is a response and can be compassionate

Eliza Madrigal: Zon, don't you think that being open to someone's suffering helps to bear it... it would be just acknowledging that we are all connected
DR42 Resident: /sg While looking in the browser for a URL
DR42 Resident sits quietly and listens.
Eliza Madrigal: we may not think we are affected by others' situations but perhaps we are in actuality and so compassion would be just recognizing how it is
Zon Kwan: open yes, but that should not stop form uplifting
Bleu Oleander: we do it all the time ... "theory of mind"
Eliza Madrigal: ah, I see... nods

DR42 Resident: I believe in Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
Eliza Madrigal: that web may be the entity I referred to in a way, earlier
Eliza Madrigal: that there is available resource but not necessarily coming from 'my' figuring it out
Bleu Oleander: like a universal consciousness?
Eliza Madrigal: yes but not zero sum as though everyone has a limited amt to share

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: maybe fractaly?
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Mandelbot?
Eliza Madrigal: gesundheit
Zon Kwan: lol
Agatha Macbeth: Two in two days
Agatha Macbeth: Gesubzeitgeist

Bleu Oleander: I think my consciousness is my own ... however I recognize that my environment and those I interact with affect it and I affect them and my environment
Agatha Macbeth: Or something
Zon Kwan: consciousness is one sea
Eliza Madrigal: yes there is something in that there is personal responsibility too... just hard to convey
Eliza Madrigal: some level of integrity necessary for openness
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Eos quoting Dylan: "To live above the law you must be honest"
Agatha Macbeth: Bob or Thomas?
Eliza Madrigal: Bob... relatively sure lol
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Eliza Madrigal: just a sensibility captured I suppose

DR42 Resident thinks Aggers should play with Chaos Pro.
Agatha Macbeth: Is he good?
Eliza Madrigal: :) well, his name says "pro"

Bleu Oleander: not sure anyone deserves to live above the law
Zon Kwan: depends on law
Bleu Oleander: although many feel they do
Eliza Madrigal: above the law in the sense of a higher standard in a sense
Bleu Oleander: assuming laws are for the good of society
Zon Kwan: there are human laws and cosmic laws
Eliza Madrigal: above the 'required' law..
Eliza Madrigal: so in a sense one is not allowed to murder.. so does one not murder because they are told they can't?
Bleu Oleander: laws ... interesting topic
DR42 Resident: If you live a honest and compassionate live, you have no concern for the law. Just like "Locks are for honest people", but in reverse.
Bleu Oleander: motivation for complying with the law ... not always obvious or understood
Zon Kwan: there are laws...and laws

Bleu Oleander: some places murder is allowed .... law to not murder is written by cultures, societies
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: we are the ones who make the laws for our cultures
Eliza Madrigal: pretty fascinating
Eliza Madrigal: :) we may get to that ethics workshop yet
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Zon Kwan: so we cant rise above our current culture ?

Bleu Oleander: sorry to be so chatty today .... we've been talking about this subject in RL
Eliza Madrigal: or does free in one's own land mean free in another?
DR42 Resident: Rising above the current culture is part of enlightenment.
Zon Kwan: nods
Eliza Madrigal: please don't apologize... am really interested in this kind of vigorous discussion
Agatha Macbeth tickles Eliza's feet
Bleu Oleander: I get wound up sometimes :)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Catrinamonblue Resident: agrres with Eliza, don't apologize, I'm listening really hard to all this
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Bleu Oleander: too much caffeine
Zon Kwan: rising above middle class morality..Ms Doolittle
Eliza Madrigal will try to keep winding bleu
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: what is your group discussing Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: all these topics
Bleu Oleander: all related in a way
Bleu Oleander: also reading too many books
Bleu Oleander: haha
Agatha Macbeth: Not possible

Zon Kwan: read 1 minute..think 10

Bleu Oleander: well have to get going ... walk the dogs :)
Bleu Oleander: it's going to be 116 today
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bleu have a good walk :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bleu woof well
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu, hugs to doggies
Bleu Oleander: hugs
Eliza Madrigal: 116 ::faints:::
Zon Kwan: bye bleu
Eliza Madrigal is happy for the rain today

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: it's cool and cloudy here :)
Eliza Madrigal: cool and cloudy sounds nice
Catrinamonblue Resident: something more from the wikapedia page on compassion
Agatha Macbeth: Well we have warm and cloudy

Catrinamonblue Resident: Hinduism In the various Hindu traditions, compassion is called daya, and, along with charity and self-control, is one of the three central virtues.[4] The importance of compassion in the Hindu traditions reaches as far back as the Vedas. The central concept particularly relevant to compassion in Hindu spirituality is that of ahimsa. The exact definition of ahimsa varies from one tradition to another. Ahimsa is a Sanskrit word which can be translated most directly as "refraining from harmfulness." It is a derivation of himsa which means harmful, or having the intent to cause harm.[5]

Catrinamonblue Resident: What caught my eye was the "refraining from harmfulness"

Zon Kwan: good idea
Eliza Madrigal: actively not causing harm, nods... similar to Hippocratic oath
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: that feels to me close to the 'what to do when you don't know what to do'
Eliza Madrigal: method
Eliza Madrigal: "first cause no harm"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Eliza Madrigal: but I guess it is sort of neutralizing the tendency to do harm so that one might be open to compassion

Zon Kwan: everyone has his/her own karma and dharma
Zon Kwan: dont harm it
Zon Kwan: when you try to help
Eliza Madrigal: hard to see that far Zon
Eliza Madrigal: ?
Zon Kwan: there was a monkey
Zon Kwan: that wanted to save a fish
Zon Kwan: from drowning
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zon Kwan: so he lifted it up yo tree
Zon Kwan: and we know what happens if you do that
Catrinamonblue Resident: poor fish
Zon Kwan: poor helper
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
DR42 Resident: But that is not bad karma
Zon Kwan: it is
Zon Kwan: all poor actions
Zon Kwan: cause effects
DR42 Resident: There was no intention to harm the fish, With no intention to harm, there is no bad karma.
Zon Kwan: there was action
Eliza Madrigal: there is some trap in trying to map out what one thinks another's karma is... like disciples asking Jesus whether the person sinned or his parents, as though that made a difference whether to release him if in one's power to do so

Agatha Macbeth suddenly finds the couch very inviting

DR42 Resident: "Actions that are without intention are not considered to be kamma in the Buddha's teaching." http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma1.htm

Agatha Macbeth: Toodle poodle

Zon Kwan: disagrees with that teaching
DR42 Resident: bye
Zon Kwan: bye
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Aggers
DR42 Resident: As is your right.
Eliza Madrigal: hugs, Aggers
Catrinamonblue Resident: thinking hard about intentions

Catrinamonblue Resident: at one time I felt that the intentions behind the action matted greatly
Zon Kwan: you may intend to help..but act stupidly
Catrinamonblue Resident: but now am unsure
Zon Kwan: that has an effect
Zon Kwan: regardless of intention
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: I think intention matters just as much
Zon Kwan: stupidity done save you
Eliza Madrigal: and gesture is real

Zon Kwan: if bad intention the effect is more powerful
Catrinamonblue Resident: but if the result is pain for another?
Catrinamonblue Resident: even if the gesture is real
Zon Kwan: how do we grow
Zon Kwan: by making mistakes
Zon Kwan: and learning form consequences
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes

Eliza Madrigal: it matters if someone is in pain... of course... have trouble with this and my kids sometimes, much less myself
Zon Kwan: if stupidity would be without karma
Zon Kwan: we would never grow

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: knowing "for sure" what would alleviate suffering - I often think I know what I want/need but may not on the whole
Eliza Madrigal: some of the most powerfully wonderful things have come from things I would not have chosen

DR42 Resident: You cannot alleviate suffering, only change your perception of it.

Catrinamonblue Resident: I like that Maude :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Catrinamonblue Resident: perception has played a large part in my life lately
Catrinamonblue Resident: others perceptions of me mostly but Mine as well
Eliza Madrigal: interesting, how so?
Catrinamonblue Resident: how much time do you have? It could take a while to explain and I'm not fully sure I understand it all yet myelf
Eliza Madrigal nods... I have a little while but understand, maybe not ready to articulate
Eliza Madrigal: still cooking ? :)

Catrinamonblue Resident: we play many parts in our lives, wear many masks and sometimes those maks cause others to see us as we are not really
Eliza Madrigal: oooh yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: and we see them by the masks they wear

DR42 Resident: Isn't the goal of meditation to remove those masks and open the heart of tenderness to others?

Catrinamonblue Resident: or masks of the past no longer being worn but the perception has been made and the change not seen
Zon Kwan: or perhaps masks we project on them
Catrinamonblue Resident: that too Zon yes
DR42 Resident: 慈悲

Eliza Madrigal: there may be a delay in others' acceptance of our changes if they see them at all, and vice versa
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Maude it can but sometimes we get locked up inside emotion and lose sight of openess
Eliza Madrigal: that 'responsiveness' we were discussing earlier... perhaps that's the level at which that is active... beneath the masks, illuminating them
Catrinamonblue Resident: sometimes when emotions take control things seem as dark and ugly and that we perceive others as dark
Eliza Madrigal: but in the meantime we do have to make do with trying to relate and do our best?
Eliza Madrigal: ah, nods

Eliza Madrigal: I completely 'forget' good things, in some moments
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: and so has this other person in my life
Catrinamonblue Resident: perceiving me and all around as dark
Eliza Madrigal: maybe cost seems too high, of remembering
Catrinamonblue Resident: sigh maybe
Eliza Madrigal: hard :(
Eliza Madrigal: amazing how very close people can suddenly find themselves in different universes
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm waiting to see if it will pass, it may not and I have to choose my destiny so to speak, the direction I wish to go
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Eliza :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: when to be still and when to act :)

Zon Kwan: goodnight all
Eliza Madrigal: time to wait and see can be gift or trap ... wishing you and loved ones clarity
Eliza Madrigal: Night Zon :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: for me over these past 8 months or more it always seems to come back to patience and compassion
DR42 Resident: night
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Zon :)
DR42 Resident: Eliza, yes, I have experienced changes like that.
Eliza Madrigal: me too.. I used to, maybe naively, think that things would always become clear 'before' I acted

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: there comes a moment to trust to instincts, when things are not clear and yet there is a feeling
Catrinamonblue Resident: time is a great healer and in time things will be clear but in the meantime :) must muddle as best as one can :)
Eliza Madrigal: in the meantime, sow seeds in the muddle
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: smiles

Eliza Madrigal: one thing hard to give up, is being understood
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
DR42 Resident: My family has not understood me since 1974.
Eliza Madrigal: tough to accept/be with that Maude? how do you keep tenderness?
DR42 Resident: It is difficult. I think about how I haven't changed, their perception of me has changed.
Eliza Madrigal: so you have compassion for their limitations, in a sense?
DR42 Resident: Yes, but sad at the same time.

Catrinamonblue Resident: my mother and I have not spoken in many years (she disowned me) after many years I am able to accept it but do feel pity for her as she has lost out
Eliza Madrigal: yes :( sad means you have not closed up, though
Eliza Madrigal: I do love that Shambhala teaching "genuine mind of sadness"

Eliza Madrigal: when those who are 'supposed to' accept you, can't, perhaps particularly hard
DR42 Resident: I haven't exchanged words with most of my family for years, with a few exceptions. The hardest part was family members who thought it appropriate to send me hate mail.
Eliza Madrigal: sigh
Catrinamonblue Resident: it is, for years and years I tried everything to gain her acceptance, twisted myself in knots for it to no avail
Catrinamonblue Resident: had to learn to let it go
Catrinamonblue Resident: can sympathize Maude some of the emails my mother sent..... shiver
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps it is ultimately a positive, to miss what should be

Eliza Madrigal: sometimes someone feels like fighting is caring
Catrinamonblue Resident: it certainly ws a life lesson in letting go
Eliza Madrigal: so that they are passionately engaged and trying to argue you into a better way, they see as compassionate

DR42 Resident: Well, non-communication is a poor way to fight.
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol best thing ever from my point of view :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: see how complex it gets? lol

Eliza Madrigal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3ZXdvN3orA

DR42 Resident: I remain open to communications, but not in an abusive form.
Eliza Madrigal: agreed.. that is a good balance
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I too but my mother hasn't learned how not to be abusive and at this stage of her life I doubt she ever will

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: maybe not on the whole - amazingly sometimes people can find a small place they can meet in - happened with my mom, and I didn't think it ever could, for a long time
Eliza Madrigal: I just had to let go 'needing' her
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods, will see maybe some day :)
Eliza Madrigal: or needing her to be what I wanted 'mom' to be
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes that was the big thing I had to let go of
Eliza Madrigal: I've needed that from my kids a little lately, too
Eliza Madrigal: for them to make some room
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods

DR42 Resident: I asked her how she could express such admiration for Bill O'Riely when he was saying that I should be put to death because of who I was.
Eliza Madrigal: :( well that's a kind of madness Maude.. I really believe
Eliza Madrigal: people feed on news opinions and figures and don't see who is in front of them
Eliza Madrigal: :(((
Catrinamonblue Resident: :(
Eliza Madrigal: ideologies

Eliza Madrigal: it is like the very things that people lean on to help them see clearly can be traps... I see this for myself too
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I too have done that
Eliza Madrigal: if I reach for a 'teaching' instead of just opening up
Eliza Madrigal: that said, I really don't get the O Riley thing
Eliza Madrigal: I have relatives affected by violence to extreme degrees who never owned guns, who when it becomes a political topic are all of a sudden pro gun to the hilt
Eliza Madrigal: strange strange

Eliza Madrigal: maybe it goes back to fear? fear for one's child or tribe member?
Eliza Madrigal: to not be accepted has had extreme consequences in the world
Catrinamonblue Resident: sad really
Eliza Madrigal: so we can only do our best to rise in our own lives in impossible situations
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: even if can only muster empty gestures at first

Eliza Madrigal: I'd better go... have to eat something or I will keep rambling forever
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Catrinamonblue Resident: me too :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Was a great session ty :)
Eliza Madrigal: thank you for coming :)
Eliza Madrigal: thank you too, Maude :)
DR42 Resident: Yes, yes, but I am a spaceshot today.
Catrinamonblue Resident: spaceshot?
Eliza Madrigal: spaceshot... what a curious word
DR42 Resident: It's a 60's kind of word.
Eliza Madrigal: groovy
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: night guys :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night :)
DR42 Resident: Night.

Eliza Madrigal: spaceshot seems to mean shot above the atmosphere?
DR42 Resident: Yes, my brain is in orbit, not in reality....
Eliza Madrigal: :) hope you are able to rest - cute dress btw
DR42 Resident: Slang a person who is eccentric or out of touch with reality, as if affected by drugs.
DR42 Resident: ty. Freebie from sl10b

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: like most of my friends (eccentric) strangely, since I am so 'normal' and 'grounded'...
Eliza Madrigal: lollol
DR42 Resident: Normal, for some value of "normal"
Eliza Madrigal: yes :) hugs :) see you soon
DR42 Resident: Like 1+1=3 for large values of 1.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
DR42 Resident: ty. laters
Eliza Madrigal waves