2013.07.15 19:00 - Metamorphosis, faith and religion.

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Kori
Korel Laloix: Heya
Korel Laloix: Just getting a snack
Aphrodite Macbain: BRB on the phone
Aphrodite Macbain: Life is too complicated
Korel Laloix: I know the feeling..
Aphrodite Macbain: I am waiting for 2 phone calls
Aphrodite Macbain: from different parts of Canada
Aphrodite Macbain: What's new with you?
Korel Laloix: Canadians... always so much trouble... smiles
Korel Laloix: Winding down from homework.
Aphrodite Macbain: grins. we try to be
Aphrodite Macbain: almost done?
Korel Laloix: I noticed... I like that actually.
Korel Laloix: Not too long now.
Korel Laloix: Then just one more semester.
Aphrodite Macbain: We are a quarrelsome lot

Aphrodite Macbain: Do you start putting calls out for jobs?
Korel Laloix: I actually got a note today about a job I put in for and interviewed once.
Korel Laloix: SO will chat to them again and see where that is....
Aphrodite Macbain: oh? and what did it say?
Korel Laloix: Doing field work for plant disease sample collection.
Aphrodite Macbain: plant disease?
Korel Laloix: They want to talk to me again.. I think their funding is tied up.
Aphrodite Macbain: :/
Aphrodite Macbain: Where would it be?
Korel Laloix: Yes like Dutch Elm disease, blight, etc.
Korel Laloix: North Tx, OK and Kansas.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods. I just didnt know you knew about plants as well
Korel Laloix: I think that is the territory.
Korel Laloix: I don't... lol
Korel Laloix: But I am studying up on it in a hurry.
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) but u know about statistics
Korel Laloix: And I have had one course in plant epidemiology.
Aphrodite Macbain: cool
Korel Laloix: If I am offered the job I will pick up another plant class next semester.
Aphrodite Macbain: I know someone from Perfect Paradise who works on this.
Korel Laloix: But having to educate myself on a lot of things.

Korel Laloix: Heya'
Santoshima Resident: hi :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi- I just bought a rug from West Edmonton Mall!!
Korel Laloix: Are they known for their rugs?
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Santoshima Resident: they are known for their waterslide
Aphrodite Macbain: no. It's from Pottery Barn
Santoshima Resident: and enormity
Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
Santoshima Resident: is that a word?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- a nice one
Aphrodite Macbain: I saw the rug on the net
Santoshima Resident: send a pic?
Korel Laloix: Well congratulations on your purchase...
Aphrodite Macbain: and got it for less than half the original price including shipping
Santoshima Resident: :)
Korel Laloix: Have a place picked out for it in the house yet?
Aphrodite Macbain: Arts & Crafts style
Santoshima Resident: the floor
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh yes- the living room floor
Aphrodite Macbain: giggles

Aphrodite Macbain: let's get serious
Santoshima Resident: ok
Aphrodite Macbain: It has been suggested we look at the concept of metamorphosis
Santoshima Resident: who suggested that?
Aphrodite Macbain: cant remember- it was during the Guardian meeting
Korel Laloix: I read a really bad short story for an english class was called that.
Aphrodite Macbain: I find it (metamorphosis) a bit vague so perhaps we can give it a verb
Korel Laloix: Thsi guy turned into a centipede or something...
Santoshima Resident: hmm, what do you mean?
Santoshima Resident: isn't it already a verb
Santoshima Resident: ?
Aphrodite Macbain: I meant add a verb to it as in "Does Metamorphosis apply to humans?"

There is a book called Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka
Korel Laloix: One sec.
Korel Laloix: Yes.. that was it...
Aphrodite Macbain: about a man who transformed into a fly
Santoshima Resident: a bug
Korel Laloix: Yes that was it.
Santoshima Resident: a big one
Aphrodite Macbain: yes - they made a movie about it
Aphrodite Macbain: I haven't read it so I dont know the point he was trying to make
Korel Laloix: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Metamorphosis
Korel Laloix: No point.. just there is a story about the word.. sort of.
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Kori. Can u sum it up in once sentence?
--BELL--
Santoshima Resident: oh sorry, not a bug ... a "vermin"
Korel Laloix: Not at all.
Aphrodite Macbain: wasn't it a fly?
Korel Laloix: I am not sure....
Korel Laloix: The only think I really remember about it was what a waste of time it was.
Aphrodite Macbain: I remember the film of the guy slowly transforming into a fly - pretty creepy
Santoshima Resident: just going by the wikipedia entry ... hence "vermin"\
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe there was another book called "The fly"
Aphrodite Macbain: So - do human beings metamorphose?
Korel Laloix: I would be surprised if there was not one.
Korel Laloix: Not sure what the word means.
Aphrodite Macbain: change.
Aphrodite Macbain: change shape.
Korel Laloix: I certainly have changed into something very different from 7 years ago.
Aphrodite Macbain: Like a grub turns into a butterfly
Aphrodite Macbain: a minnow turns into a frog
Korel Laloix: The different between "that me" and "this me" is about as wide as you can get.
Aphrodite Macbain: I think humans basically stay the same but change slowly on the surface as they get older
Aphrodite Macbain: How have you changed Korel?
Korel Laloix: But there are major and sudden shifts as well.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, true
Korel Laloix: How have I changed?
Aphrodite Macbain: personality shifts?
Korel Laloix: SO many ways.
Korel Laloix: I was very mentally ill then for sure.
Aphrodite Macbain: you dont think there is aways the basic YOU?
Korel Laloix: Paranoid, selfish, filled with hate, anger, fear.
Korel Laloix: I really don't like who I was.
Korel Laloix: But yes, there were themes that are still going now.
Korel Laloix: Doing well in school,
Aphrodite Macbain: So you dont believe there is always an essential YOU that never changes?
Korel Laloix: No being like my mother.
Korel Laloix: Being bossy... smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: San? Are you the same person you were 20 years ago?
Santoshima Resident: umh
Santoshima Resident: who is asking?
Aphrodite Macbain watches San typing
Aphrodite Macbain: Aph is
Santoshima Resident: well, perhaps that question could answer itself?
Santoshima Resident: same person in what way?
Aphrodite Macbain: Have you changed, do you think in any fundamental way?
Santoshima Resident: could you be more specific?
Aphrodite Macbain: No
Aphrodite Macbain: sorry
Santoshima Resident: ok
Santoshima Resident: no apology necessary
Santoshima Resident: the question when taken apart makes no sense
Santoshima Resident: and no apology is necessary for that
Santoshima Resident: it just is that way
Aphrodite Macbain: I think as we get older we become a concentration of ourselves
Aphrodite Macbain: but that implies there is a "self"
Aphrodite Macbain: we have our genetic make up that can be activated or not depending on circumstances.
Korel Laloix: I like to think there is a self.. but you have to find or make it though.
Aphrodite Macbain: You think it is a deliberate act? To make our selves?
Korel Laloix: Maybe not consciously.
Korel Laloix: Maybe an instinct.
Aphrodite Macbain: I dont really know though. Perhaps re-reading my journals might give me a clue
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: Been re reading mine recently.. scary stuff.
Korel Laloix: Heya
Santoshima Resident: hello mz. druth
druth Vlodovic: hoya
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles at druth
Aphrodite Macbain: have you metamorphosed druth? are you the person you were at 10?
druth Vlodovic: wow
Santoshima Resident: are you 10?
druth Vlodovic: that was a few lifetimes ago
Aphrodite Macbain: WERE - past tense
Santoshima Resident: ah, thanks for pointing that out
Aphrodite Macbain: yw
druth Vlodovic: sometimes i wish i had the butterfly effect to be ten again and fix a few bad decisions
Santoshima Resident: possible answer to that: yes, no, maybe, or
Aphrodite Macbain: return to being a grub?
druth Vlodovic: yes and not really :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Korel Laloix: I would like to go back to being 19.
Korel Laloix: That is when I really started living.
Aphrodite Macbain: why?
Aphrodite Macbain: living?
Aphrodite Macbain: you are not that much older now, are you?
druth Vlodovic: I wonder when she stopped
Korel Laloix: That was when I got away from my mother and the ADHD drugs
Aphrodite Macbain: Am I the only one who thinks we basically stay the same?
Aphrodite Macbain: (with the exception of using drugs I guess)
Korel Laloix: Maybe... smiles
Santoshima Resident: dunno aph
druth Vlodovic: running away from one's problems is sometimes the best idea
Santoshima Resident: is that what you think?
druth Vlodovic: I feel the same in many ways, not sure that is the same as being the same
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- that's what I've been saying San
Santoshima Resident: yes, i've been reading your questions asked to others
Santoshima Resident: interested in hearing about what you think about yourself.
Aphrodite Macbain: I dont think I have basically changed from when I was a kid
Aphrodite Macbain: I have similar values,
Aphrodite Macbain: similar fears
Aphrodite Macbain: similar needs
Santoshima Resident: you were shorter perhaps
Aphrodite Macbain: yes and skinnier :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: and wore pigtails
druth Vlodovic: lol
druth Vlodovic: I wonder about that
Aphrodite Macbain: But I imagine some people have experiences that transform them
druth Vlodovic: having similar values
Aphrodite Macbain: do you druth?
druth Vlodovic: do we chose paths that reinforce who we are?
Aphrodite Macbain: good question
druth Vlodovic: transforming into our old selves over and over again
Aphrodite Macbain: new skin old core
Aphrodite Macbain: like a snake
druth Vlodovic: or an old skin on a new core
druth Vlodovic: being different but feeling and thinking the same
Aphrodite Macbain: do you think?
Aphrodite Macbain: how would we be different? Looking different?
druth Vlodovic: a new base
druth Vlodovic: new reasons for being who we always were
druth Vlodovic: but then my life has been more characterized by stagnation than change
Aphrodite Macbain: can you not change within a small space?
Aphrodite Macbain: There are many ways to change
druth Vlodovic: I don't see change as an end unto itself
druth Vlodovic: I was rather hoping to get comments on my thoughts from those whose lives have had a lot of change
Aphrodite Macbain: no - perhaps, if you believe Darwin, we adapt to changes outside ourselves
Santoshima Resident: greetings Hana
Hana Furlough: Hi all!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Hana
druth Vlodovic: hi hana
Aphrodite Macbain: We are talking about change and whether we really do
Santoshima Resident: we are?
Aphrodite Macbain: Do we go through some form of metamorphosis?
Santoshima Resident: "i am of the nature to grow old and die" etc etc
druth Vlodovic: I was, not sure what everyone else was talking about
Aphrodite Macbain: what were you talking about?
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess we all have that nature san
Santoshima Resident: indeed
druth Vlodovic: a result of a linear perception of time
druth Vlodovic: time and change aren't really in lockstep though
Aphrodite Macbain: Hana- do you believe you have changed a great deal in your life?
druth Vlodovic: we can stay the same for ages then change hugely in a short period
Hana Furlough: yes, definitely
druth Vlodovic: then revert
Hana Furlough: still changing, i hope
Aphrodite Macbain: nods to druth
Hana Furlough: how about you all?
Aphrodite Macbain: I hesitate to summarize now..
Aphrodite Macbain: but I feel I haven't really changed
Aphrodite Macbain: no transforming from grub to butterfly
Hana Furlough: maybe you didn't need to
Hana Furlough: maybe you were already a butterfly
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: laughs
Aphrodite Macbain: hardly
Korel Laloix: I have had three major changes in my life I think...
Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
Korel Laloix: Real changes of direction... not sure that is what you mean though.
Aphrodite Macbain: It is open - interpret this however you please
Aphrodite Macbain: although changes of direction may imply changes within yourself
Korel Laloix: Well my first one was when I was eleven.. I decided to fight back.
Korel Laloix: I went from resigned to maybe the word is empowered.
Korel Laloix: Then when I left home and got off the drugs when I was 19.
Korel Laloix: And then when I became a Christian in 2007.
Aphrodite Macbain: Big changes
Korel Laloix: All were massive changes in direction for me in almost all parts of my life.
Korel Laloix: But I am sure I am not the only one with big changes like that.
Aphrodite Macbain: Were these changes caused by outside circumstances?
Aphrodite Macbain: Do we adapt by changing?
Korel Laloix: When I was 11..not sure what changed.
Korel Laloix: When I was 19.... I had to move.
Aphrodite Macbain: someone or something empowered you?
druth Vlodovic: how did you become christian?
Korel Laloix: Short story.....
Korel Laloix: I had a couple of philosophy classes that were really eye opening to their (Christianity's) closed thinking.
Korel Laloix: And at the same time I was grieving religious sims in SL.. and realized that Christians could not agree on anything.
Korel Laloix: So I started questioning everything I had been taught about religous people and I started to date a very Religous Jain.
Korel Laloix: So I looked around at various faiths looking for the one that was right (only because I agreed with it)... until I found Christianity...
Korel Laloix: Which made me look at myself.
Korel Laloix: lol.. how is that for a short version?
druth Vlodovic: interesting
Aphrodite Macbain: impressive
Hana Furlough: yes, very interesting
Korel Laloix: Impressive? 

Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. You put a lot of thought into it
druth Vlodovic: so you adopted the idea of being religious before you found a religion
Korel Laloix: Sort of.. I had a hunger I guess.
Korel Laloix: And so I went faith shopping looking for the one I agreed with... until I realized that was not the point.
Aphrodite Macbain: What was the point?
Korel Laloix smile...I did not know at the time.
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you for sharing this with us Kori
Korel Laloix: I just realized that my life was messed up and if I was trying to find a faith that I agreed with... it was going to be more of the same.. not a change.
Aphrodite Macbain: You have been an agent for your changes, rather than a recipient from others.
Korel Laloix: True.. in my own peculiar way I think.

Aphrodite Macbain: I am afraid I must go and hunt for dinner
Korel Laloix: Take care... smiles
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat.
druth Vlodovic: have fun aph
Aphrodite Macbain: I am transforming into a ravening beast
Korel Laloix smiles
Hana Furlough: bye, aph!

druth Vlodovic: I tried religion to find purpose and community
Aphrodite Macbain: and?
druth Vlodovic: ended up evangelical instead
druth Vlodovic: discovered that i make a good fanatic, but lack the attention span
Korel Laloix: Tricky when you find religion instead of Faith.
druth Vlodovic: and ask too many obvious questions lol
Hana Furlough: yes
druth Vlodovic: faith means believing no matter what or adapting what you know to make it fit
Korel Laloix: The obvious questions are not the interesting ones though.
Korel Laloix: I don't think so.
Aphrodite Macbain: faith doesnt usually rely on logic
Korel Laloix: But that is a chat for a later date.
druth Vlodovic: what do you think korel?
druth Vlodovic: depends on how patient you are feeling today
Aphrodite Macbain: hangs about as the conversation is becoming intriguing
Korel Laloix: Faith is not about looking at a set of things or guidelines.
Korel Laloix: It is about a way that we as a community of human spirits deal with each other and the greater aspects of this universe.
Santoshima Resident: well put
Korel Laloix: If you are reading a book and changing your heart over what someone tells you to think and belive.. you are paying attention to a person not God.
Hana Furlough: yes, very nice
Aphrodite Macbain: "community of human spirits" - nice
Korel Laloix: But if you go in prayer and feel and ask and think.. you will get in the right direction.
Korel Laloix: Can this be abuse and mimiced and exploited ..?.. yes
druth Vlodovic: so you see it as a flow of self through the world

Korel Laloix: But it is a current not an instance.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: waves

druth Vlodovic: hi 'naia
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Hana Furlough: Hi Stevenaia

Korel Laloix: The thing about most Faiths' sense of morals is that they really deal with how we interact with one another... not with a diety.
druth Vlodovic: a changeable base that is constant through it's emotional/moral inertia
Korel Laloix: Christianity is very much like that... when you get down to it, there are no sins against God in this Faith... just against each other.
druth Vlodovic: except denying the holy spirit
Korel Laloix: Would not call that a sin.. just an ommision.
Korel Laloix: But the word has different meaning.
Korel Laloix: And the thing is.. there are no unpardonable sins.
Aphrodite Macbain: There is a moral belief that most religions/faiths have in common: the golden rule- do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Korel Laloix: And the two most important thing is love.. love your neighbor, yourself and God.
Aphrodite Macbain pulls herself away. Bye all. Be well and happy.
Korel Laloix: Take care..
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat.
Korel Laloix: brb
stevenaia Michinaga: sorry to walk in late, what was the theme tonight?
Santoshima Resident: will im you the text
stevenaia Michinaga: I can pick it up when it's posted, thought there was a short version
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
druth Vlodovic: we almost started on unforgivable sin :)
druth Vlodovic: but the theme was transformations and whether or not we really change
stevenaia Michinaga: thx
druth Vlodovic: does anyone here feel they are a truly different person than they once were?
Hana Furlough: yeah, not unrelated though
Hana Furlough: there are of course continuities
Hana Furlough: but i feel i could say that
druth Vlodovic: we had a discussion once at thothica on whether museums should have broken artifacts or recreations
druth Vlodovic: the idea being that the artifact is the true item but the recreation is truer to the experience of the people who made it
Santoshima Resident: the re-creators?
druth Vlodovic: it came down to questions of identity and connection
druth Vlodovic: the original creators
druth Vlodovic: many castles, contrary to hollywood, were whitewashed and decorated
druth Vlodovic: not raw stone
Santoshima Resident: the recreation is not made by the original creators
druth Vlodovic: nor is it seen by the originals, and interesting adjunct to the idea of identity
druth Vlodovic: am i me to you?
Santoshima Resident: and the originals are taken out of context to be placed in museums
Santoshima Resident: how can i know who you are
Santoshima Resident: or what you have been
Santoshima Resident: only whatever you show me or tell me
Santoshima Resident: or what others say of you
Santoshima Resident: all of it is residue
druth Vlodovic: a horseshoe to me is an interesting artwork, to the original users they were tires that prevented horses injuring themselves
druth Vlodovic: with the residue removed, the artifact's nature is altered
Hana Furlough: (sneaks out to return to work... wish i could stay, though. a good evening to you all!)
druth Vlodovic: have fun hana
Santoshima Resident: ditto
Santoshima Resident: happy horseshoeing
druth Vlodovic: :)
Korel Laloix: Ciao
druth Vlodovic: ttfn
druth Vlodovic: to change oneself it often helps to change where you are
stevenaia Michinaga: isn't growth change? It's inevitable
stevenaia Michinaga: we are all moving targets
druth Vlodovic: change isn't necessarily growth
druth Vlodovic: dancing targets :)
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, not what I said
druth Vlodovic: true enough :)
stevenaia Michinaga: my last several years here have been transformative, if only to allow me to see more clearly what is
druth Vlodovic: lol, I could get all philosophical on you
druth Vlodovic: instead I'll ask what has changed about your perception of what is
stevenaia Michinaga: like a metamorphosis
stevenaia Michinaga: deeper inward view of how I look at the world
stevenaia Michinaga: for instance :)
druth Vlodovic: lots of views of what "deeper" means
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, there didn't used to be there before I came here
druth Vlodovic: ah, your grey has spread
stevenaia Michinaga: always
druth Vlodovic: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: but more now than before
druth Vlodovic: do you have a core of faith to hold your grey together?
stevenaia Michinaga: not sure, faith in what?
stevenaia Michinaga: many "faiths"
druth Vlodovic: many doctrines
druth Vlodovic: faith is more an attitude within oneself
druth Vlodovic: Korel tried to say what faith is but my simple mind couldn't hold it
druth Vlodovic: perhaps "accepted worldview"
stevenaia Michinaga: I began reading Thomas Paine "The Age of Reason; Being an Investigation of True and Fabulous Theology" the other day, not about Faith as much as an attack on organized religion
druth Vlodovic: "religion"can be a slippery word if you want it to be :)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
druth Vlodovic: cabbage patch kids can be a religion without being a faith
stevenaia Michinaga: well I must call it a night, see you soon
druth Vlodovic: sigh
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
druth Vlodovic: I'm running out of excuses for not going to bed
stevenaia Michinaga: Night Druth, Korel
Korel Laloix: Ciao
druth Vlodovic: 'night 'naia :)
stevenaia Michinaga: good dreams
druth Vlodovic: 'night korel