2009.11.05 07:00 - Opening Fear

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos was subbing for Pema. The discussion started with talking about drinking, but later Fael shared a significant journey she was going through around openness and fear.

Fael Illyar: Hi Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Fael
Eos Amaterasu: I'm subbing for Pema

--BELL--

Fael Illyar: I'm just here randomly today :)
Fael Illyar: felt like popping in
Fael Illyar: so I did
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, did not hear the ending bell
Fael Illyar: there's nothing for the start of the meeting.
Fael Illyar: no 90 second pause for the moment people are most likely to be arriving and greeting each other
Eos Amaterasu: There actualy was a starting bell, with no text, though (?)
Fael Illyar: that's the regular 9 second bell.
Fael Illyar: the 90 second thing was added later
Fael Illyar: and it has an exception for the start of a meeting. It won't ring then
Eos Amaterasu learns something new :-)
Eos Amaterasu: My perspective today was looking at the water in the pool slowly flowing right to left
Fael Illyar: I was feeling very drowsy during the bus back home today.
Fael Illyar: and exceptionally relaxed.
Eos Amaterasu: Ah, you're in Finland, is that right, and this is the end of your work day?
Fael Illyar: yes, very close to that.
Fael Illyar: it was two hours ago that I returned home.
Eos Amaterasu: I'm in Princeton, where we will start the RL retreat this evening
Fael Illyar: Ah :)
Fael Illyar: Is it all colourful there still?
Eos Amaterasu: First time I've been in this hallowed place
Fael Illyar: or have the leaves fallen already?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, today the sun is out, and all the greenery is blazing in various colors
Fael Illyar: I was there close to a year ago :)
Eos Amaterasu: I went for a walk with Pema through the woods trail, past pre-Revolutionary war buildings, cemetery
Eos Amaterasu: (recent by your standards :-)
Fael Illyar: There's a lot of trails in the woods :)
Fael Illyar: I remember walking through them a couple of times with Pema and others.
Eos Amaterasu: Any other PaBers in your general area?
Fael Illyar: no-one who comes regularly, no.
Fael Illyar: I do know a few from Finland through SL who live relatively close.
Fael Illyar: but it's pretty rare to meet anyone from Finland here.
Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Gaya
Eos Amaterasu: Liked your meet at wol's dance floor suggestion....
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eos and Fael :)
Eos Amaterasu: Besides the tango, there's also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunny_hop_(dance) :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... isn't this gen's slot? Was hoping to catch up with her.
Fael Illyar: nice mask on your head, Gaya :)
Fael Illyar: on top
Eos Amaterasu: It's now Pema's - we swapped sessions
Eos Amaterasu: Gen is now Sat 7 pm
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Fael :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I will send her an email instead then.

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: 90 secs stretched across space - Finland, USA/Princeton, - where are you, Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: London, UK :)
Fael Illyar: much closer than Princeton but not really a casual visit distance either :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Pema and I were talkng about planning RL retreat locations out for 2 years - necessary cause of need to book ahead of time
Gaya Ethaniel: It wasn't that far when I went to Lahti if I remember correctly.
Eos Amaterasu: Are either of you considering Munich in October?
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not sure about travelling plans yet ...
Fael Illyar: october 2010? If my financial situation allows for it, I'll go.
Eos Amaterasu: Cool :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Eos Amaterasu: You seem to have an inner fire, Yak
Yakuzza Lethecus: that is from thothica
Fael Illyar: Hi Yakuzza :)
Eos Amaterasu: Any particular topic/theme to discuss?
Gaya Ethaniel is curious about Eos ...
Eos Amaterasu: Greek goddess of dawn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eos), balances out Amaterasu as Japanese sun/dawn kami/goddess
Eos Amaterasu: is that what you meant?
Gaya Ethaniel: :) and anything you can tell us about yourself?
Fael Illyar smiles.
Gaya Ethaniel: Well first, why chose Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: First I chose Amaterasu from selections of last names when joining SL
Eos Amaterasu: That felt like "oh, got to do that", when I saw it, cause I was somewhat familiar with Amaterasu Omi Kami
Eos Amaterasu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: the dawn quality of first perception
Gaya Ethaniel: You are interested in Shintoism?
Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
Eos Amaterasu: perception, thought, that comes out of openness
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eden :)
Eden Haiku: Hi!
Eos Amaterasu: the Shambhala tradition that I've studied (with Chögyam Trungpa) uses language like "great eastern sun"
Eos Amaterasu: that freshness that is always dawning
Eos Amaterasu: that comes out of the 9, 90 secs
Fael Illyar: Hi Eden :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eden Haiku
Eden Haiku: hello Fael,
Yakuzza Lethecus: wow, chogyam trungpa was the one who´s wife just relased a book right ?
Eden Haiku: Nice to meet you Eos, seing you again Gaya and Yakuzza and Fael, ;-)
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, kind of a bio of her and her husband
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello haiku :)
Eden Haiku: is it good? I love his books.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think pema and gen talked about his book in a session a couple of weeks ago
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fox :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi fox
Eos Amaterasu: I think it's worth reading, especialy if you're into his teachings and life
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Fox
Eden Haiku: How is the baby Fox?
Fox Monacular: hello everyone
Eden Haiku: Dis she let you sleep? Or he?
Yakuzza Lethecus: ähm his wife´s book
Yakuzza Lethecus: since he drink himself to death :P
Fox Monacular: baby's asleep now:) but she woke up at 5 am
Gaya Ethaniel: aaww ...
Eden Haiku: early bird ;-)
Fox Monacular: unfortunately, yes:)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eden Haiku: *Pratcie of the Tibetan Way was my favorite of Trungpas's book.
Fael Illyar: Hi Fox :)
Fael Illyar: (sorry, was afk preparing food on my plate)
Eden Haiku: * practice--- I should practice my typing.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Eden, I don't recall that title - was that in translation?
Eden Haiku: Yes, I read in French. In the «Points» collection, at the Seuil. I don't have the book anymore so I can't check the English title...
Pratique de la voie Tibétaine  (French translation of Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism)
Eden Haiku: I moved and gave away many books.
Eden Haiku: Which is a good way for new books!
Eos Amaterasu: What struck you in/through that book, Eden?
Eden Haiku: It was so powerful for me reading that. Yet I remember only the Lord of Delusions. The fact that we are behind a wall of Delusions.
Eden Haiku: Lord of Form he said maybe.
Eos Amaterasu: Three lords of materialism?
Eden Haiku: He said elsewhere that drinking was a way of being grounded in the body.
Fael Illyar: someone mentioned a book yesterday it appears is completely available from the internet.
Fael Illyar: it looks intersting.
Fael Illyar: Seth Speaks (http://sethspeaks.org)
Gaya Ethaniel: It's an easy way to get in touch with 'ground' ... drink and drug, but not sustainable. Costs are too great imo.
Eden Haiku: Yes, I agree with you....
Gaya Ethaniel: And ... you have to drink a lot hey? :P
Eos Amaterasu: being grounded a la not trying to escape into wishes of something better, away from the messy stuff that's happening.....
Gaya Ethaniel: What I mean I guess is it's easy to shed 'self' as Buddhist puts it when intoxicated.
Eos Amaterasu: or you can fixate on more stuff, on "spiritual states"
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Eden Haiku: No, Trungpa made me realize why I was drinking too much and I stopped.

--BELL--

Fox Monacular: sorry everyone, this is really interesting, bu I have to go
Gaya Ethaniel: Take care Fox :)
Fox Monacular: bye-bye:)
Fael Illyar: yes, the least important parts of the brain are said to shut down first due to alcohol.
Fael Illyar: says something about the importance of self that it goes more easily intoxicated :)
Eden Haiku: Alcohol is one of my favorite subjects but I have to go now. Bye, have a nice day all! ;-)
Fael Illyar: see you later Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: Eden, that's very interesting, and almost paradoxical, what you said about dringking.... bye!
Fael Illyar: oh, sorry, Eden
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Eden :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I must be getting back to RL. Have a good day :)
Eos Amaterasu: bye Gaya
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Eos Amaterasu: Bye Yak, hope we can talk more some time
Fael Illyar: oh, everyone's going
Eos Amaterasu: what did we say :-)
Fael Illyar: I don't know :)
Fael Illyar: but this book, Seth Speaks, is amazingly coherent and sensible in what it says. A lot of what is in it I can tell is true from personal experience.
Eos Amaterasu: I'll take a look at it
Eos Amaterasu: Is Seth a person or a channelled entity?
Eos Amaterasu: or both?
Fael Illyar: both
Eos Amaterasu: CAn you say more about your personal experience that relates to Seth?
Fael Illyar: it's not any single experience.
Fael Illyar: and I haven't memorized any specific experiences that match so I could speak about them, unfortunately.
Fael Illyar: I'd have to read the book and pick something while I do so.
Fael Illyar: but the primary thing that catches my attention is that I don't see much that conflicts with my own view of how things are.
Fael Illyar: the topic of the book is the nature of our existence.
Eos Amaterasu: Does he speak to the 9 secs sort of attention?
Fael Illyar: not so far, no.
Fael Illyar: I haven't finished the book yet
Eos Amaterasu: we are walking question marks
Fael Illyar: exactly :)
Eos Amaterasu: like that Gauguin painting



Eos Amaterasu: Where Do We Come From? What Are We? Where Are We Going?
Fael Illyar: when you find answers to those questions, what then?
Eos Amaterasu: 42
Fael Illyar smiles.
Eos Amaterasu: I think the questions just deepen

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: Maybe we don't ask quite the right questions to start with
Fael Illyar: many questions come with assumptions that are already false.
Fael Illyar: like those you listed :)
Eos Amaterasu: I suppose 9 secs, PaB, meditation type practice can help expose such assumptions
Fael Illyar: yes
Eos Amaterasu: which is actually difficult to do
Eos Amaterasu: how does a fish notice water?
Fael Illyar: very difficult...
Fael Illyar: the things most close to our noses are the most difficult to see :)
Fael Illyar: especially if they're there always, without exception
Eos Amaterasu: our own awareness, for example
Fael Illyar: yes, like that.
Eos Amaterasu: Pema says that "suspension" is also actually part of scientific method as well
Eos Amaterasu: you expose something previously held, and propose something but with feeling of oepnness, question about it
Fael Illyar: yes
Eos Amaterasu: How did you come to PaB, Fael?
Fael Illyar: a friend, who no longer comes here, suggested I visit :)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Fael Illyar: I did and was hooked.l
Fael Illyar: I first come late May 2008
Eos Amaterasu: You're a veteran!
Fael Illyar: Kind of :)
Fael Illyar: been a bit inactive for the summer but...
Fael Illyar: somehow felt like coming more the last week
Fael Illyar: It's been a wild ride in some ways :)
Fael Illyar: at times, my perception of time has curiously changed.
Fael Illyar: time has felt to flow both much faster and much slower.
Fael Illyar: at the same time too
Fael Illyar: although, come to think of it, this whole summer has been that way again.
Fael Illyar: the effect went away whenever I got scared :)
Fael Illyar: even if I wasn't usually aware of getting scared.
Eos Amaterasu: or of what you were scared of?
Fael Illyar: well, not being aware of being scared kind of makes that difficult, no? :)
Fael Illyar: I started PaB and the practise quite fearlessly.
Fael Illyar: also Zen meditation.
Fael Illyar: and in 2 months I got rather powerful experiences during and after one meditation that scared me for a long while.
Eos Amaterasu: hmm....
Eos Amaterasu: have you gone back there, so to speak?
Fael Illyar: I've had experiences this summer after which I've felt I understand what happened during that one meditation.
Fael Illyar: I somehow removed all barriers in myself that kept my fears in check during that meditation.
Fael Illyar: I sat for 20 minutes meditating with the fears roaming free.
Fael Illyar: then came out of it.
Fael Illyar: the next couple of days I'm not going to forget easily.

--BELL--

Fael Illyar: I eventually got myself in quite a bind trying to analyze what was going on.
Fael Illyar: thankfully Moon was there to help me seal things back.
Fael Illyar: could return to more functional state... although in some ways I was more functional with the fears unsealed.
Fael Illyar: it always costs something to keep something sealed in yourself.
Eos Amaterasu: it may be a process to work with that, not instantaneous
Fael Illyar: yes, looking back, I've been taking the fears on one at a time after that.
Eos Amaterasu: and even if you get a glimpse it may take a while to have that permeate, soften, open
Fael Illyar: but that was a "glimpse of early success" for me.
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Fael Illyar: guidepost of a kind.
Eos Amaterasu: including getting to know, friend, the fear in a way, including it in the openness?
Fael Illyar: yes
Fael Illyar: fear is not something to be pushed, sealed away. It's a messenger.
Fael Illyar: and will naturally vanish when it's message has been heard
Eos Amaterasu: ah, great way to put it
Eos Amaterasu: but we have to be willing and able to stay with it to hear it :-)
Fael Illyar: yes
Fael Illyar: everything we don't like and would like to push away from our sight has a message we haven't yet understood.
Eos Amaterasu: very interesting, why we reject things
Fael Illyar: yes
Fael Illyar: there's wisdom behind everything we don't like.
Eos Amaterasu: so in a way that also makes wider the sense of who you are - you are also including where you are not yet, what you haven't been able to accept
Eos Amaterasu: yourself as journey
Fael Illyar: where you don't think you are yet.
Eos Amaterasu: warrior in the sense of being able to be with your own fear(s), and both being willing to see that, but also being gentle, not attacking or shrinking from it
Eos Amaterasu: letting it be, perhaps gradually
Fael Illyar: it's slow progress :)
Eos Amaterasu: manual work
Fael Illyar: extreme situations sometimes call more out of us momentarily than we could do without pressure.
Eos Amaterasu: yes
Eos Amaterasu: maybe sometimes that's the only way to pull us out of our comfort zone
Fael Illyar: yes
Eos Amaterasu: or ignorance zone
Fael Illyar: either works :)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Fael Illyar: How did you find PaB?

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: I was doing things on Commonweatlh island, which hosts non-profits and events
Eos Amaterasu: and Kira had a pavilion there. Widget Whiteberry said I might find Kira interesting, so I checked it out, and was amazed to find a Phenomenology Café (I'd studied pheno)
Eos Amaterasu: and then went to a PaB session here - resonated immediately
Fael Illyar: Yes, PaB resonated with me too immediately :)
Eos Amaterasu: I have been doing similar practices, both buddhist, shambhala, and also medieval christian
Eos Amaterasu: openness, appreciating, presence - finding that both in little moments and in things
Fael Illyar: I've started going to an RL Buddhist center a few weeks ago
Fael Illyar: Diamond Way Buddhist Center is the name in English
Fael Illyar: Westernized Karma-kagyu
Eos Amaterasu: My buddhist teacher was Chögyam Trungpa, who was both Kagyu and Nyingma
Fael Illyar: the last time I was there, they suggested I go look at a Nyingma place that I was unaware of exists here.
Fael Illyar: ah
Fael Illyar: I was thinking to go take a look tomorrow how I like the place.
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, check out how it resonates, feels. Sometimes it's immediate hit, sometimes you go away and then come back some time later
Eos Amaterasu: "work out your own salvation with diligence" - Buddha
Eos Amaterasu: but there's friends on the way
Eos Amaterasu: like here in PaB land :-)
Fael Illyar: Yes, I've found quite a few so far :)
Eos Amaterasu: One of the great virtues of virtual-land, that we can connect across miles and miles
Fael Illyar: Yes :)
Fael Illyar: the feeling of presence it's possible to feel through SL is quite good :)
Fael Illyar: in some respects it's even more.
Eos Amaterasu: I still find it surprising and moving
Fael Illyar: it is :)
Fael Illyar: it takes quite some time to get used to it
Eos Amaterasu: the key is to meet people, and strike up genuine relationship: sometimes people come to SL and that doesn't happen
Fael Illyar: Yes, then they leave, not finding anything worthwhile
Eos Amaterasu: Are you a software, computer person, Fael?
Fael Illyar: yes
Eos Amaterasu: Me too
Fael Illyar: Ah :)
Fael Illyar: No wonder you're getting so involved with that side of PaB :)
Eos Amaterasu: Actualy I think software is applied philosophy :-)
Fael Illyar: It is :)

--BELL--

Fael Illyar: but interpersonal relations are that even more so.
Fael Illyar: but also psychology... as much as that can really be separated from philosophy :)
Eos Amaterasu: Well, it was great talking with you, Fael.
Fael Illyar: You too Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: I don't usually do this time slot
Eos Amaterasu: during the week, at least
Fael Illyar: I've been a rare sight at PaB recently too
Eos Amaterasu: wb :-)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: have fun Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: You too - ciao!
Fael Illyar waves.