2009.11.20 13:00 - flu shot, or not ?

The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

Yakuzza Lethecus: hi fox
Fox Monacular: Hey Yakuzza
Fox Monacular: how are you?
Yakuzza Lethecus: fine, thx, a bit tired
Fox Monacular: me too... i just got the flu shot...
Yakuzza Lethecus: i won´t do that
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t trust the h1n1 hype
Fox Monacular: i didn't want to either... but I work in a hospital
Fox Monacular: no, me neither.. I don't trust it... but being an asthmatic I'm in
Fox Monacular: a risk group
Fox Monacular: too much pressure from all the doctors in the family
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, and it´s neccessary in a hospital ?
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: well, we work in the research wing... so it's not too bad... but we still use the same cafeteria and elevators as all the flu sick people...
Fox Monacular: anyway, I resisted as much as I could... and then most people I trust had the vaccine
Fox Monacular: and to top things off, any flu is risky for me:)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, i am curious how many ppl already have antibodies without having an swineflu diagnosis
Yakuzza Lethecus: a friend just told me that he is also going to get the shot
Fox Monacular: yes, I know... I'm sure for most it's just a flu
Yakuzza Lethecus: because there might be a second form of the virus soon
Fox Monacular: oh... and then the superbugs in hospitals because we use too much antibacterial stuff
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, thats why my farther had a antibiotics resistant virus last time he had to stay in the hospital :P
Yakuzza Lethecus: and was in quarantene for 4 weeks
Fox Monacular: yes... and then there are antibiotics we're exposed to through meat and milk... fun stuff
Fox Monacular: oh boy
Fox Monacular: that's really rough
Fox Monacular: hope he's ok
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, it was just an infection of his leg
Yakuzza Lethecus: but it didn´t heal
Yakuzza Lethecus: now its fine
Yakuzza Lethecus: it was 3 years ago, but it was pretty scary since we had to take ,,vorsichtsmaßnamen"
Yakuzza Lethecus: i hmm, very empty today
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
Fox Monacular: hi Cal
Calvino Rabeni: greetings
Fox Monacular: sorry Yakuza and Calvino, I have to leave already:) unexpected RL visit
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care fox
Fox Monacular: see you next time
Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya qt
Qt Core: Hi all
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi wol
Wol Euler: hello yaku, calvino, qt
Qt Core: hi wol
Wol Euler: calvino, I hope you've slept some since we last met :)
Calvino Rabeni: yes thanks
Wol Euler: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Are there any topics "in the air" ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: we were only talking about the h2n1 immunization before
Yakuzza Lethecus: anyone got the shot yet ?
Calvino Rabeni: I don't feel concerned
Wol Euler: nope, but I did get a regular flu shot
Qt Core: no, never got a flu shot
Yakuzza Lethecus: me neither
Qt Core: i just heard the international health organization saying that h1n1 had a mutation in Norway
--BELL--
Wol Euler: it's spread to cats now
Qt Core: the news dodn't tell if good or bad
Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya zon
Qt Core: i heard that, but do it attacked cats now or we just noticed it now
Wol Euler: hello zon
Qt Core: hi zon
Calvino Rabeni: I have not been taking precautions, have you?
Wol Euler: only the easy and sensible ones: wash hands and face frequently, lots of vitamin C and D, avoid people who cough
Qt Core: the usual, like don't go around kissing sneezing people
Wol Euler: hello zen
Zen Arado: Hello all :)
Zon Quar: zen
--BELL--
Zen Arado: anyone interested if I tell a Zen story?
Wol Euler: please do
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Qt Core: sure
Zen Arado: Is That So? The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbors as one living a pure life. A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child. This made her parents very angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin. In great anger the parents went to the master. "Is that so?" was all he would say.
Zen Arado: When the child was born, the parents brought it to the Hakuin, who now was viewed as a pariah by the whole village. They demanded that he take care of the child since it was his responsibility. “Is that so?” Hakuin said calmly as he accepted the child. A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth – that the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.
Zen Arado: The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask his forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back again. Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: "Is that so?"
Zen Arado: Comments?
Calvino Rabeni: Hakuin didn't like drama?
Zen Arado: :)
Zon Quar: accept what is happening
Zen Arado: do you like his attitude?
Zen Arado: is it realistic?
Zon Quar: not really..thoug it was cool
Zen Arado: or too passive?
Wol Euler: I wonder what happened to the child, whether it would hve been better off with him.
Zon Quar: i would have said no...it is not so
Qt Core: every time he offered to option to [re]consider the choice the parents were making
Zen Arado: interesting that Hahuin didn't worry about his reputation either
Calvino Rabeni: I think we act like Hakuin a lot, but not for zen reasons
Zon Quar: nods
Qt Core: even in the second scene, i doubt
Zen Arado: I doubt any of us would act like that ?
Wol Euler: hello ari
Zon Quar: needs to hava a storng sense of no self to act like that
Arisia Vita: hi all...
Zen Arado: Hi Ari
Zen Arado: yes Zon
Zon Quar: not taking things personally
Zon Quar: at all
Zen Arado: but I wonder about the passivity
Arisia Vita: Hi Arch
Zen Arado: Hi Arch
Zon Quar: he was a mirror
Wol Euler: I'm inclined to doubt whether that degree of detachment is a good way to raise a child.
Zen Arado: but what was he detached from?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey arch
Zon Quar: no..its just an example of zen attitude
Wol Euler: the child itself, to start with.
Zen Arado: probably took good care of child
Wol Euler: hello arch
Qt Core: hi arch
Zon Quar: from his self
Zon Quar: not a guideline in everydaysituations
Wol Euler: indeed :)
Zon Quar: but the attitude
Zen Arado: so we shouldn't behave like that?
Zen Arado: if something similar happened?
Zon Quar: it depends where we were in this existensial play
Zen Arado: but isn't he a kind of example?
Zon Quar: like jesus said turn ur other cheek
Zon Quar: i wont necessery do so
Calvino Rabeni: it is a parable, not a prescription
Zon Quar: in all situations
Zen Arado: ok
Wol Euler: it's a kind of extended koan, I would say. It's intended to make one think, rather than to be taken seriously as the true relation of an incident involving six people
Archmage Atlantis: Jumping right into a discussion I know nothing about, all children are unique entites, with their own will and destiny
Zen Arado: don't have to take it literally I suppose
Wol Euler: IMHO the attitude is generally admirable, yes, and we should generally try to emulate it, yes.
Archmage Atlantis: It is literal, as we are all our own
Zen Arado: but shouldn't we aim for that attitude Wol?
--BELL--
Zon Quar: attitude is an aim..yes
Zen Arado: ok you answered my question Wol
Wol Euler: :)
Zen Arado: but he sems so passive is my worry !
Wol Euler nods
Calvino Rabeni: Monks sacrifice
Wol Euler: well, let's look at that. What is bad about being passive in this example?
Zon Quar: he accpeted the lie
Zen Arado: it seems he would accept any kind of s*** from anyone
Calvino Rabeni: well he questioned it
Zon Quar: althaough he knew the truth
Archmage Atlantis: I have never before done this, without the background, I still say he or she or it choices e's own path........it is not mine to judge
Zon Quar: h eknew it was not so
Wol Euler: perhaps by doing so he shielded thte girl?
Zon Quar: who lied
Wol Euler: who was in a hell of a bad situation, and grasped at a way out of it
Zon Quar: so he approved her lie
Wol Euler: one can infer that his doing so brought a measure of peace to the house, though
Wol Euler: gave her time and space to consider, gave her parents a chance to calm down
Zen Arado: good point
Zon Quar: is peace more important than truth ?
Wol Euler: maybe it is, yes.
Wol Euler: IMHO YMMV :)
Zen Arado: good question
Wol Euler: hello gen
Zen Arado: Hi Gen
Wol Euler: oh, where'd she go?
Archmage Atlantis: Is that so?
Zon Quar: dreaming happy dreams than face reality
Wol Euler: staying alive in the relative securityt of her family rather than being murdered for besmirching their honour, or being cast out to starve
Zen Arado: in this case I think peace was more important than truth
Archmage Atlantis: Is that so?
Zon Quar: yes..but under otehr conditions..perhaps not
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: yes
Wol Euler: yes, of course :)
Wol Euler: consider this: how could Hakuin have proven the accusation false?
Zon Quar: so we should not always speak teh truth ?
Qt Core: without a dna test, that is ;-)
Zen Arado: bowing to the inevitable then?
Wol Euler: would his attempting to do so have achieved anything but stirring up tempers even further?
Archmage Atlantis: We should always speak of our understanding yes
Zen Arado: good point Wol
Archmage Atlantis: To claim truth?
Archmage Atlantis: Is that so?
Wol Euler: he did what was socially right and proper in this situation, IMHO, at the expense of enduring a falsehood.
Wol Euler: and yes, Arch, IMHO it is.
Zen Arado: truth has to be abandoned in certain circumstance IMHO
Zon Quar: or not to be expressed..
Archmage Atlantis: What is the truth of an elephant to a group of blind men?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, he did not deny the accusation
Zen Arado: good point
Zon Quar: he didint express the truth he knew
Wol Euler: perhaps the lesson of the koan is that it is better to endure a falsehood than struggle against it, if by doing so you help your fellows.
Zen Arado: not sure he did know ?
Zon Quar: lol
Zen Arado: except he knew it wasn't his child
Wol Euler grins and whispers "but perhaps it could have been"
Zon Quar: yes wol
Zen Arado: :)
Zon Quar: i think all buddhas have to do that
Zon Quar: not to tell all
Zen Arado: what about the loss of reputation?
Zon Quar: tp help us
Archmage Atlantis: To wish for something to be, is to desire
Wol Euler: it's a boddhisatva attitude, to sit in the dirt and help
Zen Arado: reputation so important for most of us
Zon Quar: its ego
Zen Arado: yes
Zon Quar: who cares of reputation
Zen Arado: easy to say though
Zen Arado: IMO
Zon Quar: lol
--BELL--
Zon Quar: thats why i would have said...no that is a damn lie..i never has a sexual relationship with that woman
Wol Euler: and I didn'T inhale
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Archmage Atlantis: I did inhale, I did have sex with a woman once, it was not my path......all have their own path
Calvino Rabeni: I like that the monk "took on" the family karma
Wol Euler: I'm afraid my path leads me away :)
Zen Arado: me too
Wol Euler: this was a great discussion, thank you for introducing it, Zen.
Wol Euler: goodnigh all
Zen Arado: thanks for iintresting comments
Zon Quar: me 2 night all
Calvino Rabeni: Tes Zen the story really worked
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
Calvino Rabeni: Thx
Zen Arado: bye
Wol Euler: goodnight, sleep well
Qt Core: nignt zen, yak
Wol Euler: be honest, but not too much so
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Archmage Atlantis: The ultimate fear
Archmage Atlantis: Too much honesty
Qt Core: try answer people casually asking how are you ... bad, thanks, and you ? ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: Could be the end of the world as we know it
Archmage Atlantis: They chose not to see you, if they answer only themselves
Archmage Atlantis: And you chose to hide
Archmage Atlantis: There are choices on both sides
Archmage Atlantis: And this world is ending
Archmage Atlantis: Obviously only in my view
Archmage Atlantis: As I walk only my own path
Archmage Atlantis: I did find Lady Gaga sort of a hoot when I first saw on the tv last night
Calvino Rabeni: Ihav no tv, what is that Arch
Archmage Atlantis: Television, but satillite, so I can record and playback as I choose
Qt Core: i have one... but the remote is almost never in my hands ;-) so i almost don't have it
Archmage Atlantis: A condnundrum, ....the remote
Archmage Atlantis: I learned how to mange mine
Archmage Atlantis: Manage
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night
Archmage Atlantis: Or a dog with mange, perhaps
Qt Core: 'night yak
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: I must go meet a friend. So long all.
Archmage Atlantis: Night Yakuzza, thank you for this
Qt Core: i have to go, bye arch
Archmage Atlantis: Good evening Cak
Archmage Atlantis: Cal
Archmage Atlantis: Old men ramble