2009.11.11 07:00 - Struggle, Tears, Wisdom, and Silence

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who was joined this day by SophiaP, SophiaSharon, Eden, Gaya, Yakuzza, Mary, and Resting. We continued a conversation that had begun a few weeks ago, about 'jihad' and kinds of struggle, after a few greetings and some notes about the Sacred Art Museum in progress near the PaB Village. :)

sophia Placebo: Hello
Eliza Madrigal: Hi sophia! :)
sophia Placebo: i was in the museum
sophia Placebo: very lovely gates
Eliza Madrigal: Wow, I'm always startled by your shape-shifting :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh, tell me about it. Is it coming along?
sophia Placebo: thnks :)
Eliza Madrigal: I've not checked in a week
sophia Placebo: the sacred museum in bieup , there is some hanged pics there
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, okay, so beginning to take shape inside
sophia Placebo: but the doors are awsome
sophia Placebo: yes
Eliza Madrigal: I do love the ceiling and yes, the doors are grand
sophia Placebo: didnt notice the ceiling , better to go back and check after sesion
Eliza Madrigal: I love that walking through, one feels a kind of gravity...like just impressions can do that
Eliza Madrigal: I guess we should wait until everyone gets here to begin to talk about struggle. This is a wonderful topic
--BELL--
sophia Placebo nods
Eliza Madrigal: It is so interesting how a little turn from another's angle and point-of-view can open something in a new way
Eliza Madrigal: and make such obvious sense.
sophia Placebo: true
sophia Placebo: i liked the way we discuss things in pab , patience with slow pace discovery
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza and sophia :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Gaya ! :)
sophia Placebo: hi gaya :)
Eliza Madrigal: Shall we give SophiaSharon a few minutes before we dive into the topic?
Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: slow pace discovery is a wonderful phrase, sophia
sophia Placebo: Hi SophiaS
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi SSharon :))
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello SophiaSharon :)
sophia Placebo: Hi Yak
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :) Glad you made it
SophiaSharon Larnia: (sorry I have to go afk for a few minutes)
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, okay. Well, shall we begin to share thoughts on struggle that we may have had from the last conversation?
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
sophia Placebo: sure
Eliza Madrigal: For me, I thought about all that people want for themselves and for others too... how intensely we can feel the need to see things 'mattering'
Gaya Ethaniel: mattering?
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, to have tangible results I guess
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok
Gaya Ethaniel: We often talk about how goal-orientated frame of mind can be unhelpful.
SophiaSharon Larnia: well, the definition of struggle is ' to make strenuous or violent efforts in the face of difficulties or opposition'...in the sense of personal struggle, I've been thinking about who the struggle is against, really.
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, and who do you think? :)
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... *ponders*
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eden
sophia Placebo: Hi Eden
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eden! :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eden :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: struggle against the expectations others place on us

Yakuzza had been sitting away from us, across the fountain, but came to sit closer... 

Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Ya. I was struggling with whether to ask you to come sit with us. heheh
SophiaSharon Larnia: against what we want to do vs what we feel like doing
Eden Haiku: Hi Eliza, Gaya, Sophias ;-), Yakuzza !
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes me too Eliza! haha
Eliza Madrigal: Oooh definitely Sharon!
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Gaya Ethaniel: :D
Eliza Madrigal: Do you think we give others permission to place expectations on us?
Eliza Madrigal: maybe set a stage, sometimes?
SophiaSharon Larnia: whoops i meant to say what we are supposed to do vs what we feel like doing sorry
Gaya Ethaniel: Where does 'supposed to do' come from?
Gaya Ethaniel: I think both Eliza ... sometimes people just expect.
Eliza Madrigal: hmm, nods
sophia Placebo: intersting question gaya
SophiaSharon Larnia: trying to formulate and answer and theres so many
SophiaSharon Larnia: an*
Gaya Ethaniel nods.

Sometimes dualities are useful tools to find clarity. Gaya asks a question...

Gaya Ethaniel: Well, let me ask you this. Do you think struggle is a good thing or bad thing?
SophiaSharon Larnia: without struggle there is inertia maybe?
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, yes, no stretching
sophia Placebo: it is hard and not tempty , but i guess has good outcome
Eliza Madrigal: My mind goes back to the yoga analogy... struggling to be relax in various positions and views
Eliza Madrigal: hard at first
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: hmm , i made a notecard for this session , it is a bit long , and since a wrote it all by myself no copy paste thing , so you should read it all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Sophia :))
SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks Sophia!
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :) Totally absorbed reading ...
Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm what an excellent notecard, Sophia, so much in this. I'm struck by this part in particular:n this process one must not consider desires as aims but as tools , and he shouldnt be basing his decisions on likeness and dislikeness
Gaya Ethaniel nods ... winks knowingly ... Eliza is working on 'desires'.
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Eden Haiku: Thank you so much Sophia. It is very interestingé
sophia Placebo: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Desires and Ethics... living a life that does no harm and allows for growth and change
Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder how Jihad is guided in Islam -- "it is encouraged and guided "
sophia Placebo: hmm
Gaya Ethaniel: Is it like talking to a teacher if you are a Buddhist?
Eliza Madrigal listens
sophia Placebo: there is saying : your mind is prophet , your mind is ligleslator * spl
Gaya Ethaniel: Or combination with self-guidance ...
Gaya Ethaniel: oh
sophia Placebo: one might discover that lies are harmfull by trial and error
sophia Placebo: or by observing others
sophia Placebo: or by teaching
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Resting :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Resting
Resting Thor: hi!
Eden Haiku: You seem to have a deep understanding of Islam Sophia. It is a rare opportunity for me to meet someone like you.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Resting :) We're engaged in a topic this morning :Struggle. Sophia has given us a note...which I'll give you when you sit down :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed Eden :)
sophia Placebo: we have lots of teachings , ethical that sometimes we dont do a workshops like that of stim's , i really liked that workshop , another way i didnt learn ethics like that
sophia Placebo: Hi Resting
Eden Haiku: I just read your profile Gaya, wondering about your rabbit head and dicovered you might be Korean? I'm almsot as curious as you are ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: :D
Eliza Madrigal: Well it seems sophia that much of the learning in Islam is through stories?
Eden Haiku: Living in UK now.
sophia Placebo: Thats cuz im muslim Eden
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I am in UK now.
SophiaSharon Larnia: i'm having a bit of trouble differentiating between desire and hawa, although i sense that it may be clear
Eden Haiku: Yes, I supposed that.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes please tell us a bit more about hawa sophia?
sophia Placebo: lots of stories in Quran true Eliza and true lots of ethics lectures are stories
Eliza Madrigal: I like that... it allows one to step into another shoes to see a setting and situation... to imagine the angles
Eliza Madrigal: and yet not usually formulaic?
SophiaSharon Larnia: stories filter into understanding more than statements do
sophia Placebo: hmm gaya , i share with you same trouble , i was actually working on that , thats best i could reach to
SophiaSharon Larnia: at least for me
Resting Thor: knowing what story to tell in a given situation would be wisdom
Eden Haiku: hawa would be like «we eat to live not live to eat». Is it like greed?
Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder re: hawa ... just going back to what Eliza said yoga analogy ... 'struggling' against being fixed is something one could work on?
sophia Placebo: desires deal with wants , hawa deals with likeness
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, preference?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes preference is related to ego I think.
sophia Placebo: yes
Eliza Madrigal nods...yes that is clearer

Wanting something/Liking something...

Eden Haiku: Oh, yes. Wanting something, liking something. It is different, yes.
Gaya Ethaniel: ego ... I guess sense of self.
Eliza Madrigal: Wisdom would then emerge as one embraces the struggle to an extent...but learns amidst it to let go?
Eden Haiku: Buddhists would say equanimity. Liking/not liking, it should not matter. Leads to freedom.
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not sure ... I have a feeling that one gets to care more as one see more.
sophia Placebo: wisdome comes from insghit to reality of things
SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Eden, true... that sense of being able to appreciate whatever arises 'good or bad'... which goes back to gaya's earlier question...
Eliza Madrigal: whether struggle is good or bad

Eden shares a personal struggle, and we hold it with her for a little while...

Eden Haiku: I could feel the jihad in my own heart right now...
Eliza Madrigal listens
sophia Placebo: we have similar thing , one must not be sad if he lost things and not happy if he gain things then he is free from attaching self to things
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes!! When we aren't searching to find our selves in things...
Resting Thor: Buddhists practice joyous effort...joy in doing good...is that similar to your struggle idea?
Eliza Madrigal: so there may be struggle, but not 'suffering'
SophiaSharon Larnia: struggle seems to be in this sense to be finding ourself amonf things then
Gaya Ethaniel: Looking for satisfaction in things is like filling bottomless pit.
SophiaSharon Larnia: among*
Eliza Madrigal: Joyous Effort...like that very much
sophia Placebo: yes resting thats one part of it
sophia Placebo: the other part is not to find joy in bad things
Gaya Ethaniel: Or ... a pit that expands as it receive more stuff :P
Eden Haiku: My sister and I aren't on speaking terms for more than a year now. I'm not wanting this. I'm not liking this.
Eliza Madrigal: Yes that is terribly difficult Eden, I'm sorry to hear it
Eden Haiku: Yet, the only way is surrendering to waht is. Inch allah.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mary :)
Eden Haiku: Thanks
Mary Korpov: hi
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mary :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Mary
sophia Placebo: Hi Mary
Resting Thor: there is a difference between ignorant liking/not-liking and wisely liking/not-liking
Eliza Madrigal: Let me give you a notecard that sophia put together for our topic: Struggle
Eden Haiku: What is the difference?
Eden Haiku: Hello Mary.
Resting Thor: it is the difference between ignorance and wisdom
Resting Thor: we still want to help others :)
Eden Haiku: I'm afraid I am mostly on the side of ignorance.
Mary Korpov: Ignorance is bliss
Eden Haiku: ;-)
sophia Placebo: sorry about that Eden , ope things would be better in next days
Eliza Madrigal: There is some safety in that perspective, Eden. When we're more aware of what we don't know than what we do, we are open and listening :)
Mary Korpov: I've often felt that the only ones who are actually wise are the ones who are aware that they are ignorant
Eliza Madrigal nods
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Gaya Ethaniel: Those tend to be open for ideas ... etc.
Eliza Madrigal: room for wisdom to be appear
Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
Mary Korpov: and recognize that we are always ingnorant
Eliza Madrigal: There are bibilical lines "Doesn't wisdom cry and put forth her voice?" The imagery is of someone constantly present... but not heard
sophia Placebo: sometimes resting we go justefying our likeing /unliking as if they were wise
Gaya Ethaniel: You mean there is always more to see Mary?
Eden Haiku: Thanks for listening. I'm crying in front of my screen ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh Eden, maybe that's a start
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
SophiaSharon Larnia: so sorry Eden
Mary Korpov: I mean it is impossible to see it all, thus true wisdom is impossible
Eden Haiku: I have been crying for more than a year...
Eliza Madrigal nods.. estrangements are some of the most difficult things to deal with... heart longings
Eliza Madrigal: I hope you and your family find clarity... sometimes it takes a long time
Gaya Ethaniel: Slowly what to do that feels right will emerge I think Eden.
sophia Placebo: there is old arabic liner : take wisdome from crazy - moron?- poepel mouthes :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eden Haiku: And New Year coming. I'm organizing the family reunion. She won't come. It hurts our 85 years old father. It happened when our mother died, the estrangement. Sorry to be so emotional this morning.
Eliza Madrigal: Earlier Sophia brought up the idea of patience in the context of our paB discussions... that there is a sense of things slowly coming to light
Gaya Ethaniel: When one doesn't like one's current situation and so not accepting it [foundation] to move on, I think that kind of sets up a struggle against oneself.
Eliza Madrigal: And don't worry, Eden. Glad we can sit with you today
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Eden
Gaya Ethaniel nods @ Eliza ... takes time.
Mary Korpov: I think it is necessary to abandon the idea of like/dislike and simply exist in the moment
Eden Haiku: Exactly Gaya. Jihad within.
Eliza Madrigal: That seems a continual process... in the moment abandoning
Gaya Ethaniel: It doesn't mean resigning to it ... I don't think.
Mary Korpov: Not exactly resigning, but ignoring
Resting Thor: so you like existing in the moment :)
--BELL--
Mary Korpov: Clever, but no, I just try to live in the moment without likes and dislikes
Mary Korpov: Gotta run
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Mary :)
Eliza Madrigal: in the moment is where the energy is... the energy to allow change...freedom?
sophia Placebo: bye Mary
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Mary
Eliza Madrigal: (Oh,sorry... that seemed like a long bell) :)
sophia Placebo: :)
Eden Haiku: Yes, it is amazing how the 90 seconds sometimes seem short or long...
Gaya Ethaniel nods. When one lives in what it could be etc. a lot of energy gets lost I think.
Resting Thor: perhaps she didn't like pab?
Gaya Ethaniel: She?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I think Mary likes PaB from what she told me ... but could be wrong :)
Eliza Madrigal: She must, she comes quite often :)
Resting Thor: could be liking with wisdom then...:)
Gaya Ethaniel: :D

Eden shares something beautiful...

Eden Haiku: I like it so much the PaB silence. It feels nurturing. And I doN,t mond when someone just forget and types away. I do it sometimes by distraction.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: This topic is quite complex ...
Eliza Madrigal smiles....interesting the way you phrase 'the pab silence' as though it is of a particular taste, Eden
sophia Placebo: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Wonder we can meet up again ... continue :)
Eliza Madrigal nods to Gaya... seems we could come at it from many angles
SophiaSharon Larnia: it is to me Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: :)

A feeling remains that we've only skimmed the surface, especially given Sophia's note (which I will post at the bottom of the log), so Gaya and I begin making more plans...

Eliza Madrigal: I will be hosting this Friday 7AM I think
SophiaSharon Larnia: thinking of struggles in reagrd to likes/dislikes...
Gaya Ethaniel: I think I am going to read again the notecard sophia gave and think about it for a while.
SophiaSharon Larnia: (i would offer Eliza but work all weekend
Eliza Madrigal: yes me too. That will be useful
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes catching up Ssharon. :)
Eliza Madrigal: (Sharon and I were roomies in Princeton)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok SophiaSharon
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
sophia Placebo: sweet
Eden Haiku: It has a aprticular taste yes. My friend when on the phone during the last one and even, with the conversation going on in the next roomm I felt your silence. My friends was quite surprised when he opende the door for the delivery man (for a new vacuum cleaner we just bought) and he saw that I was crying.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, how did he respond, Eden?
Eden Haiku: Jihad bettween liking the new yellow vacuum cleaner and crying about my sister...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I mean ... Eden we are humans ... it's ok to have all these feelings. Kind of wonderful that we have them.
Eliza Madrigal: That's our life isn't it... Hm.... the little pleasures and the great pains... all mingled
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Eliza Madrigal: and our facing both
Eliza Madrigal: embracing both, in a sense... in a kind of wrestling
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
sophia Placebo: :)
Eden Haiku: He went back into his office, knowing I was with you guys.He respects my PaB moments and just comes to my screen when there onigokko runnings beacuse I laugh out loud so much then...
Gaya Ethaniel: Express share ... it's very enriching.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: (thinks its a good thing i didnt have the oni-thingy on *giggles)
Eden Haiku: Giggles.
Gaya Ethaniel: I have to run, thank you and see you soon again :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Gaya!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Gaya, Thanks
Eden Haiku: See you gaya!
sophia Placebo: bye gaya :) thanks for the session idea
Eliza Madrigal: I guess we'll talk in email about the next time :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye gaya and propably everyone
Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: have a few outlines on what struggle is thank you...
Eliza Madrigal: Sophia do you have any other thoughts on struggle in the context of Islam being particular... or having a certain emphasis
Eliza Madrigal: I like the lines about the value that emerges... viewing that way
Eden Haiku: Yes, I will also go for a walk. Indian Summer here. Thanks for the jihad insights Sophia and everyone for listening . Have a beautiful day ;-) I feel better ;-)
Resting Thor: enjoy!
Eliza Madrigal: (I will post the entire note in the log)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eden
sophia Placebo: hmm not know , i usually follow the flow of your ideas and thoughts so i'll wait and see
Eliza Madrigal: Hugs, Eden :)
sophia Placebo: bye eden :)
Eliza Madrigal: Well I do look forward to continuing this conversation! Thanks so much everyone
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all :) take care !!
Resting Thor: bye!
SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now my friends :)
sophia Placebo: bye Sophias , Eliza
Yakuzza Lethecus: good bye everyone
Yakuzza Lethecus: and thx for the session
sophia Placebo: bye yak , resting :)

Sophia's Note:

freedom :the concept of freedom is diffrent a bit than that in modern culture , even in our daily talk in arabia we use the english word free when we want to refer to the western meaning of freedome - in our chit chats- we say someone is free when he/she do whatever he/she likes

but that meaning is more attached to the concept of will if we dig it deep , we say someone do whatever he wants ie he has the will to choose to do or not to do 

will is another concept that is a little diffrent too , the will isnt totally free nor one fate is detremined by DNA or any natural law
 the will of one man is in between those 2 paths between the absulote free will and the absolute determinism

one famouse saying about freedom is of a man who was surrounded by a huge army to kill him , he told them : if you have no religion and you fear no other life , be free in this life and go back to yourselves and question it , do you have the right to kill me ?

he is asking them to purefy their intentions and clear their positions and on what bases they make their decision : are they killing him cuz he deserve it or they are killing him cuz they want money , fame , power and so on

in jihad we struggle to free our decisions from 2 main entities : desires and hawa , the other one isnt easy to explain in english in one word the first though is easy

desires struggle are best described with one liner : not all that sparkle is gold ! and the other one liner : we eat to live not live to eat

Hawa is a concept related to ego sometimes , love hobbies , heart , opinions etc , it is about likeness and dislikeness , about the things we might change our mind about them 180 degree

It is adviced not to be a self opinion worshipper nor to follow others opinions blindly -opinions based on likeness and dislikness even if we later tried to justefy them for the sake of justefying them-

in this process one must not consider desires as aims but as tools , and he shouldnt be basing his decisions on likeness and dislikeness

so the word jihad is a descriptive word to the state of self at the time of making decisions , we struggle , i guess that everyone doing that in one way or another , it is just in islam we have more emphasis on that , it is encouraged and guided

it is mostly dealt with in ethics