2009.11.17 13:00 - A Dream of a Session

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

Mickorod Renard: Hi Fox
    Fox Monacular: Hi Mick
    Fox Monacular: How are you today?
    Mickorod Renard: I am fine thanks,,busy as usual
    Mickorod Renard: how are you?
    --BELL--
    Fox Monacular: good, thank, very busy as well...
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Fox Monacular: Hello Calvino
    Mickorod Renard: hi Calvino#
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello fox, mick, what is up?
    Mickorod Renard: what time rl is it for everyone?
    Fox Monacular: 4pm
    Calvino Rabeni: 1pm
    Mickorod Renard: 21:00 here
    Fox Monacular: hehe
    Fox Monacular: lots of people in a coffee shop here
    Mickorod Renard: wow,,good mix already
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Qt
    Fox Monacular: Hi Qt
    Qt Core: hi all
    Mickorod Renard: Qt must be 22:00
    Qt Core: 22:02, why ?
    Fox Monacular: Hi Wester
    Mickorod Renard: I was just getting a feel for everyones rl time
    Wester Kiranov: hi all
    Mickorod Renard: Hiyaaaa,wester
    Fox Monacular: I think we've never met, Wester
    Fox Monacular: nice to finally meet you!
    Qt Core: hi wester
    Wester Kiranov: I don't know if you have. Nice to meet you Fox
    Wester Kiranov: (met me)
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,Wester isnt so regular here these days..I am afraid I have been more absent recently too
    Fox Monacular: and it's also the time of day thing...
    Mickorod Renard: I was thinking about dreams the other day
    Wester Kiranov: a specific one or in general?
    Mickorod Renard: and thinking about your expertise Fox
    Mickorod Renard: maybe you can help too wester
    Fox Monacular: tell us more?
    Mickorod Renard: I know its said that dreaming is a sort of repair workings for the mind
    Mickorod Renard: at least sleep is
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Mickorod Renard: and those who sleep little may suffer
    Fox Monacular: well, sleep has a number of important functions for the whole body as well for the mind
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Mickorod Renard: well, I dont sleep much
    Fox Monacular: for instance, it has been demonstrated now that memory consolidation depends on good sleep
    Fox Monacular: and good sleep architecture - ie sleep stages at right times
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Wester Kiranov: But there are big difference in how much sleep people need
    Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
    Mickorod Renard: without getting into too personal details, i get up as soon as I am aware that I am nearly awake#
    Fox Monacular: essentially, a person should find his/her optimal schedule and stick to it
    Fox Monacular: but do you feel rester, Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: I struggle with dificult Lucid stage in the mornings
    Fox Monacular: *rested
    Fox Monacular: nods
    Qt Core: that is if people let you sleep for said optimum time ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: mickm why get up?
    Mickorod Renard: things haunt my lucid period
    Fox Monacular: yes, morning REM is usully longest and lucid dreams are more likely to happen
    Mickorod Renard: and I get up rather than alow things to disturb my thoughts
    Mickorod Renard: disturb
    Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
    Fox Monacular: are you simply aware that you're dreamng or you're in some degree of control over the dream scenario?
    Mickorod Renard: hi Sophia s
    Qt Core: just had a morning dream abou having a double crash witn my car, i was nervous all the day
    Fox Monacular: hi Sophia
    Calvino Rabeni: feels threatening?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :)
    Qt Core: hi sophia
    Mickorod Renard: I may be able to control it,,if I hung in there,,but I prefer not to allow certain things into my head
    Fox Monacular: actually cultivating lucidity helps deal (and change) traumatic nightmares
    Fox Monacular: right, I hear you, Mick
    Fox Monacular: Oh, did the day go well, Qt?
    Calvino Rabeni: mick, your "day head" I guess
    Mickorod Renard: I am concerned that my refusal to stay in bed may be slowing down my ability to deal with it#
    Qt Core: while it was scary i was a little weided out about seing in dreams a rl object, i usually don't see rl object in my dreams or at least i don't feel as they are really and mine
    Fox Monacular: I see what you mean... it's hard to say... dreams have an uncanny quality to them... they can tell you a lot... sometimes you don't feel like facing these things
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Qt Core: yes, but i was strangely ;-) careful while driving
    Fox Monacular: you know, I personally made a choice of stopping my dream diary... too much time and mental effort went there
    SophiaSharon Larnia: have you been driving more lately Qt?
    Wester Kiranov: hi wol
    Qt Core: no
    Mickorod Renard: hiya wOL
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Wol
    Fox Monacular: Hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    Wester Kiranov: just in time for the silent period
    Qt Core: hi Wol
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: i GUESS THE ROADS ARE GETTING MORE DANGEROUS AS WINTER APPROACHES
    Fox Monacular: also dreams of driving are among the most typical dreams
    Fox Monacular: even I have them, and I don't even have a driver's license!
    Wol Euler: wow :)
    Qt Core: i think this is the 2nd time in my life, the other time some 25 years ago
    Mickorod Renard: i WOuld think the 5 or six hours I sleep now are a step better than the 4 hours I used to sleep before
    Fox Monacular: wow, Mick, this is not a lot
    Wester Kiranov: have you always slept little?
    Mickorod Renard: not always,,but never was a laying in person
    Fox Monacular: I know one wonderful person - very productive, creative, sharp - he sleeps no more than 3 hours
    Fox Monacular: but a few times a day
    Fox Monacular: if I do that - I feel like my brain is in slow motion!
    Mickorod Renard: I am concerned that sleep lessnes is linked to some brain degenerative disorders
    Mickorod Renard: in later life
    Fox Monacular: hhmmmm, well, usually as people age, they sleep less... generally
    Wol Euler: well, it can be, but it's also generally true that --- yes, as Fox said
    Calvino Rabeni: any idea why ppl sleep less?
    Wol Euler: one theory is that the body cuts down on the amount of maintenance it does.
    Fox Monacular: no, I don't really know
    Calvino Rabeni: reports from friends - they have physical discomforts
    Fox Monacular: it seems a degenerative process... as with other finctions... newborns sleep all day almost... and then we sleep less and less
    Wol Euler: and teenagers often sleep enormous amounts when they start their growth spurt
    Mickorod Renard: thats odd in a way,,as babies are like a sponge and like the stimulus
    Calvino Rabeni: might this parallel a decrease in learning ability?
    Fox Monacular: I think so, Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: or in learning activity?
    Fox Monacular: sleep is important for brain maturation, memory consolidation and such
    Mickorod Renard: u mean I am at the bottom of my ability now,,he he
    Fox Monacular: I didn't mean you personally, Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Mickorod Renard: I used to sit up and read,,or do puzzles
    Fox Monacular: but, yes, it seems like baibieshave more to consolidate
    Fox Monacular: at night?
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Fox Monacular: and then go back to bed?
    Mickorod Renard: sometimes I would go to bed,,wait for my partner to fall asleep,,then get up
    Calvino Rabeni: a recent study has hypothesis that night brain activity is a preparation and warm-up function for future activity
    Fox Monacular: I think that night activity is just as important as day activity
    Calvino Rabeni: but personally I don't think that's well-distinguished from consolidation
    Wol Euler: were you unable to sleep, Mick, or did you not wish to?
    Qt Core: most like defrag and scandisk ;-)
    Fox Monacular: we need both to be healthy
    Mickorod Renard: bit of both
    Mickorod Renard: I did have an issue at one stage,,and I would choose to sleep when I knew |I was too tired to lie in bed thinking
    Fox Monacular: we tend to think that nighttime brain activity is somehow subordinate to daytime, but I disagree with it
    Fox Monacular: they are interpermeable
    Fox Monacular: you know, Mick, my partner does the same
    Wol Euler: that sounds almost like you were afraid to go to sleep
    Fox Monacular: and he thinks I don't notice when he gets up
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I wasnt afraid to sleep,,but afraid to not be fully asleep
    Wol Euler: how do you mean?
    Fox Monacular: did you suffer from insomnia?
    Mickorod Renard: there is always the bit before u fall asleep,,and the bit in the morning when your mind is active in sleep
    Wol Euler: and you feared those times?
    Wol Euler: (feel free to stop me if this gets too personal)
    Fox Monacular: so you were trying to avoid these two periods?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,be anoyed with those times
    Mickorod Renard: as there seemed to be a lack of control of direction of thought during those periods
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: I am not sure whether some is down to a change in personality
    Fox Monacular: basically as you fall asleep and then the morning dream period are the most active dream processes (or at least most available to our waking consciousness)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,those dreams that do not surface are not an issue
    Fox Monacular: have you tried to sort of detach yourself from this mental activity? like in PaB?
    Mickorod Renard: no,,I am too conditioned now
    Fox Monacular: would you qualify these as nightmares?
    Mickorod Renard: I think I see something more animal in myself than I really like in dreams
    Mickorod Renard: no nightmares
    Fox Monacular: perhaps you could try writing them down, and then looking back at them when you are awake... so perhaps decondition yourself a little bit
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I avoid them now,,so dificult to write them down
    Wester Kiranov: hi ara
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
    Fox Monacular: Hi Ara
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone
    Qt Core: hi ara
    SophiaSharon Larnia slips away...bye all :)
    Fox Monacular: In my own experience, avoided dream reality will eventually manifest itself in a more dramatic way... so perhaps getting acquainted with it gently could be a good idea
    Mickorod Renard: well, that was why I asked,,I thought there may be a draw back with prolonged dream deprivation
    Fox Monacular: yes, very plausible
    Mickorod Renard: bye sophia
    Fox Monacular: in fact, REM deprivation usually ends with a REM rebound, even after one night
    Mickorod Renard: how do you mean Fox?
    Fox Monacular: for instance, many people self-medicate with marijuana, which suppresses REM sleep, so they're happy, they din't have disturbing dreams anymore
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Fox Monacular: but as soon as they're off it - they have longer and more intense dreams than before
    Fox Monacular: so this method can clearly backfire
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I can imagine
    Mickorod Renard: I wonder why?
    Wester Kiranov: It looks like your dreams are trying to tell you something
    Mickorod Renard: I do remember a long time ago that those who used drugs thought they opened new doors of perception
    Mickorod Renard: but maybe they were just recieving rem rebound
    Fox Monacular: welll, that could be true... it's always a question of balance:)
    Fox Monacular: not all drugs interfere with REM as directly... but pot does for sure
    Fox Monacular: salvia, for instance, produces an opposite effect - dreamlike state in waking
    arabella Ella: but Fox scuse my ignorance but surely not all REM dreams are bad dreams are they?
    Mickorod Renard: or maybe those who smoked pot became more chilled out,,and slept deeper?
    Fox Monacular: yes, Mick, definitely, but REM sleep, and dreaming too, are so essential, that if you disturb the balance, you're in trouble later
    Mickorod Renard: yikes
    Fox Monacular: No, Ara, REM dreams are usually teh most intense and detailed, so usually bad dreams and all nightmares come during REM
    Fox Monacular: so REM is not bad
    Fox Monacular: it's good:)
    arabella Ella: oh ok i thought i had once learnt that REM dreams are most vivid dreams ... some good some bad
    Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: I know I do dream still,,but I just dont like when I am semi concious of certain dreams,,likely that manifest themselves in the morning
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Mickorod Renard: dreams and sleep are a facinating subject
    Mickorod Renard: subjects
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Wester Kiranov: I think I have to go now. Bye, it was good talking with you all
    Mickorod Renard: scuse spelling
    Calvino Rabeni: bye!
    Mickorod Renard: bye Wester
    arabella Ella: bye Wester great to see you again!
    Qt Core: bye Wester
    Wol Euler: goodnight wester, sweet dreas
    Wol Euler: *dreams
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Calvino Rabeni: My partner had sleep disturbances, which I "cured" her of.
    arabella Ella: Fox do you think we could learn the skill of auto suggesting our own dreams ... is it possible?
    Mickorod Renard: so do you do hypnosis where u are Fox?
    Mickorod Renard: wow,,well done Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, I suppose"suggestion" was how it worked
    Fox Monacular: sorry about that]
    Mickorod Renard: its funny, I am great at sorting out others,,but cant sort myself out
    arabella Ella: did you try to put her in a good mood then Calvino or just put positive thoughts in her mind?
    Mickorod Renard: Hi eliza
    Wol Euler: hello eliza
    Mickorod Renard: nice gown
    Fox Monacular: yes, ara, this is certainly possible:)
    Calvino Rabeni: she would sit up and stare, but be unresponsive
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone :)
    Mickorod Renard: asleep?
    Eliza Madrigal: Apologies, Qt
    Fox Monacular: no, we don't do hypnosis, but I know some people who do
    arabella Ella: hi Eliza
    Qt Core: np eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: elize, like your outfit!yes asleep, but eyes open
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Ara, and everyone. Thanks Calvino :)
    Mickorod Renard: strange
    Eliza Madrigal: I have to run... apologies :)
    Fox Monacular: my messages don't seem to get through
    Fox Monacular: !
    Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
    Fox Monacular: I wrote before that yes, it is possible to incubate a dream, in response to ara's comment
    Calvino Rabeni: she would hallucinate a threatening figure in the room
    Mickorod Renard: ohh,,sounds a bit like the sleep paralysis
    Fox Monacular: and also I wrote that we don't do hypnosis:)
    Fox Monacular: yes, sounds like it
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I got that Fox..thanks
    arabella Ella: yes ty Fox got you there :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Fox Monacular: I wrote 2 or 3 messages, adn tehy just didn't get through
    Fox Monacular: Calvino, would that happen more in the morning or at sleep onset?
    Calvino Rabeni: as I recall about 3:30 am
    Fox Monacular: and how did you cure her?
    Calvino Rabeni: so middle
    Calvino Rabeni: ok, she would relate as if it were fear experience - because it was
    Calvino Rabeni: and I asked her to tell
    Calvino Rabeni: but I acted fascinated, a but deetached, relaxed
    Calvino Rabeni: to give hr that attitude
    Calvino Rabeni: there was a monster with no face
    Calvino Rabeni: just a blank
    Fox Monacular: spooky
    Calvino Rabeni: I said, oh that's so interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: I winder what is on the face?
    Calvino Rabeni: How far away is it?
    Fox Monacular: this is a great approach!
    Calvino Rabeni: So I suggested, thisly, looking at the blank face in the dream
    Calvino Rabeni: ofer time, it got closer
    Calvino Rabeni: it came out of the shadow (in her hallucination)
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    Calvino Rabeni: She finally saw the fce
    Calvino Rabeni: face
    Calvino Rabeni: interestingly,she said - "It was your face!"
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Calvino Rabeni: I thoght that weird
    Fox Monacular: interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: but it worked out well, because she is not afraid of me
    Mickorod Renard: well,,maybe it was your face that took away the fear
    Calvino Rabeni: so the dream figure was no loger scary
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Mickorod Renard: lovely
    Calvino Rabeni: after that this didnt happen anymore
    Wol Euler: how wonderful
    arabella Ella: that sounds lovely Calvino thanks for sharing it
    Fox Monacular: it is as if you have successfully desensitized her, and she transferred some of you to it!
    Calvino Rabeni: yw
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, i kind of took it
    Calvino Rabeni: but there were no ill effects on our relationship
    arabella Ella: great
    Fox Monacular: this is great, Calvino, this approach also works well with recurrent nightmares... do re-tell, rethink, detach and change its essence
    Calvino Rabeni: she became somewhat lucid, and also in relationship with me
    Calvino Rabeni: in the dream
    Fox Monacular: wonderful
    Calvino Rabeni: Fox, I am not a therapist but this worked similar to what some of them do
    Fox Monacular: did you learn this from someone, or did you intuitively knew how to approach it?
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Fox, neither. I'd say I synthesiaed it based on general education.
    Fox Monacular: awesome
    Mickorod Renard: I remember quite a few dreams,,not badm,,but slightly disturbing
    Mickorod Renard: and there is nothing worse than lying in bed with that alobe feeling,,cos ur partner is so fast asleep
    Mickorod Renard: alone*
    Fox Monacular: yes, it can be difficult
    Mickorod Renard: its niceyou were/are so sensitive Calvino
    Fox Monacular: perhaps you could try something like that too, Mick... althought I understand you might me reluctant to look at your dreams
    Calvino Rabeni: M, my center of gravity is intellectual though
    Mickorod Renard: I think I have looked at them,,and decided I dont like them...they are more extended thoughts I think
    Fox Monacular: I think in the long run it might be better for you to gently get to know your dreamlife...
    Fox Monacular: and you'll probably discover it's not at all that bad!
    Mickorod Renard: I was facinated with my dreams once,,loved the experience,,but that seems lost at the moment
    arabella Ella: so Fox how do you suggest Mick could get started if he decided to be motivated to do so?
    Fox Monacular: I don't think it's too late to regain that
    Fox Monacular: I'm not a therapist, right, but I would try to write them down first
    Fox Monacular: kind of detached, as reports
    Mickorod Renard: I think we remember our dreams when we lay in a few mins in the mornings
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, that helps
    Mickorod Renard: I would have to allow that first
    Fox Monacular: and then slowly try to decode them, perhaps first at the formal level, like ok, a bear, I saw a bear on TV yesterday... ok next
    Calvino Rabeni: you might try, if you happen to have a dream you actually loke and is pleasant, then try it then, just to get friendly with the process
    Calvino Rabeni: *like
    Fox Monacular: yes, exactly, so just writing them down, as diary reports, as a homework, non-attached, if possible, non-emotional
    Mickorod Renard: I dont think the dreams are so bad..just the ones u wake up with
    Fox Monacular: I personally even don't think that bad dreams are bad... at least for me
    Mickorod Renard: I think some issues revolve around loops of unsolvable puzzles
    Fox Monacular: in my own dreamlife, when I have recurrent bad themes, it usually means I have to resolve something in RL
    arabella Ella nods
    Fox Monacular: and often the message is much less cryptic than it seems
    Fox Monacular: and less sinister too:)
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: well,,maybe,,but they keep revolving
    arabella Ella: yes as i feel we may at times be a bit too hard on our selves when we interpret our own dreams but we can also work on changing our perceptions concerning interpretation
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe it helps to recognize, some of one's dreams are not personal
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Fox Monacular: you know, one effective method of dream interpretation involves you telling someone else (someone you trust obviously) your dream and have them interpret it is if it were their own dream
    Fox Monacular: and ask you questions
    Calvino Rabeni: nice
    Fox Monacular: so without judgement
    Qt Core: time to go, bye all
    Mickorod Renard: thats a good point
    Calvino Rabeni: bye Q
    Mickorod Renard: bye Qt
    Fox Monacular: bye Qt
    arabella Ella: bye Qt
    Wol Euler: bye qt
    Fox Monacular: sometimes just through their questions, you can get to details that explain it all for you
    --BELL--
    Fox Monacular: and you somehow miss or unconsciously don't really see them
    Fox Monacular: oups, sorry
    arabella Ella: but Fox
    arabella Ella: what if a recurring dream is about something obvious and realistic
    Fox Monacular: well, sometimes when you dream of a banana it's just a banana:)
    arabella Ella: like ... lemmi think of an example ... going up on stage to deliver a presentation and being totally unprepared
    Wol Euler: heheheheheh
    Mickorod Renard: my thoughts are about rl issues,,and that I cannot control things that have passed,,I know its a fruitless issue,,but it still to my mind looks like an unsolved puzzle
    Fox Monacular: yes that's a classic one
    arabella Ella: its just an example but what if it is realistic like that and recurrs and loops?
    Fox Monacular: it is always personal... you know I have a terrible fear of public speaking, so for me it would mean something
    Fox Monacular: or someone else might have a delusion of grandeur
    arabella Ella: could a dream turn into an obsession perhaps?
    Fox Monacular: so it would be a diferent thing
    arabella Ella: yes
    Fox Monacular: yes, I think so
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, in a strict sense, not really
    Fox Monacular: I'm sure there are some more archetypal things, but usually you have to put it into a personal context
    arabella Ella: like ok let me think of another example ... having been bitten by a dog in RL and having recurrent dreams of that experience or of a car accident that happened for eg
    arabella Ella: what i mean is recurring dreams of events and emotions that happened in RL
    Fox Monacular: hmmm, in post-traumatic stress disorder, recurrent nightmares are often reflecting the trauma
    Fox Monacular: and it's sort of stuck, it doesn't change
    Fox Monacular: so it requires an interention (in RL, not in DL)
    Mickorod Renard: I often thought the dream state was free from concious fiddling,,and therefore pure in a way..and as such gave a more true symbolic undrestanding of the situation without ego etc
    Mickorod Renard: concious*
    Calvino Rabeni: not entirely
    Fox Monacular: there is definitely a continuity between waking and dreams
    Fox Monacular: and both affect each other
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, there's still a "youness" in the way things are done
    Calvino Rabeni: carrying habits, limitations, abilities
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: A dream is a little like You On Vacation
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fox Monacular: there are definitely mundane things too in dreams
    Fox Monacular: and problem solving
    Fox Monacular: in fact, many people, even some dream rsearchers, say that dreams are bizarre and emotional
    Mickorod Renard: sometimes a need to let go aswell
    Fox Monacular: but we don't find it in our work
    Fox Monacular: most dreams are logical, simple, it's just that the context is different
    Mickorod Renard: I guess we supress emotional in rl
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Fox Monacular: there are usually not more emotions in dreams than in rl
    arabella Ella: i find the logic of dreams is often different from the logic in RL
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Fox Monacular: yes, right, but within the dream context, things are usually logical
    Calvino Rabeni: the physics is different
    arabella Ella: yes
    Fox Monacular: like I fly on this machine, because I know it will work
    Fox Monacular: or I can turn my enemies into frogs
    arabella Ella: yessss
    arabella Ella: he he
    arabella Ella: i dont even need a machine to fly in my dreams :)
    Fox Monacular: but if I think so in rl, i'm clearly deluded, but in dreams I'm not, because it might work
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: however, I think that we remember emotional and negative, and bizarre dreams better
    Fox Monacular: just like events in rl
    Mickorod Renard: well,,trying out many scenarios is great for problem solving,,unless the problem was a past issue
    Fox Monacular: so the perspective is skewed
    Calvino Rabeni: some dream researchers say, you can't walk twice into the same dream room, that it is not as stable as the dreamer thinks.
    Mickorod Renard: I guess this is an issue with dream state not being fixed in time
    Calvino Rabeni: oh, that wasnt as apropos as I expected
    Fox Monacular: yes, I agree with that!
    Calvino Rabeni: in lucid dreams one can investigate that issue
    Fox Monacular: exactly, lucid dreamers have tried for ages
    Fox Monacular: to walk in the same room:)
    Calvino Rabeni: but I think the methodology would be suspect to many
    Fox Monacular: have you ever tried reading, or dialing a number in your dream?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Fox Monacular: it is so difficult!
    Calvino Rabeni: there seem to be severe short term memory problems
    Fox Monacular: just tonight I was trying to search for a youtube video in my dream
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps like people who have brain injuries
    Fox Monacular: it never worked
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Fox Monacular: you know, prefrontal deactivation during REM is probably to blame for short term memory problems
    Fox Monacular: and for usual lack of awareness of rl
    Calvino Rabeni: does that imply impaired short term memory in dream state?
    Fox Monacular: yes, pretty much
    Calvino Rabeni: it accords with the experience then
    Fox Monacular: and perhaps also is responsible for the fact that it is so difficult to remember dreams
    Calvino Rabeni: on second idea there, I think maybe not that
    Fox Monacular: but perhaps there memory 'deficits' may actually enable us to be freer in the dream
    Wol Euler: hmmmm. I wa about to say that i remember mine well, but perhaps I remember moods and single images.
    Fox Monacular: and to expand our context
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah, I felt "deficit" not a fair word to use
    Calvino Rabeni: you might know, there's always been a dispute about dream interpretation
    Mickorod Renard: sorry phone
    Calvino Rabeni: which is about whether the interpretation process actually adds to the meaning of the dream
    Calvino Rabeni: in a sense, is part of the dream process
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: instead of being considered an objective reflection
    arabella Ella: and whether we elaborate when we put our dream memories into words too
    Calvino Rabeni: exactly
    Fox Monacular: yes, I know what you mean
    Fox Monacular: I guess it really depends on what you get out of it
    arabella Ella: as Wol said most dreams are composed of feelings and images some vivid some blurred
    arabella Ella: and sensations
    Fox Monacular: because we'll never really know...
    Fox Monacular: all we know about our dreams, is our waking memory of them...
    arabella Ella: would it not be great if a 'dream reader recorder' were to be invented?
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless, you think it's possible to make a connection with that part of the mind that created the dream
    arabella Ella: like a PET or CAT scan that records dreams like movies
    Fox Monacular: hehe, maybe some dreams are meant to be quickly forgotten
    Fox Monacular: I think it is something that can be cultivated, Calvino
    arabella Ella: yea but for therapy or those who wish to 'record' their dreams on DVDs ... just imagine the implications
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean, to consider the dream in real time as a creation, not like a recorded past event
    Fox Monacular: I don't know, ara, kind of spooky:)
    arabella Ella: i'm just imagining the positive aspects but like anything else there would be good and bad points i guess
    Fox Monacular: in psychoanalysis they talk about a 'censor' that doesn't let you remember what you're not supposed to
    Calvino Rabeni: The philosophy of "active dreaming" is that you can make them up anew while awake, so it doesn't matter as much to remembe3r them accurately
    Fox Monacular: yes, right
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't believe in the censor metaphor
    Mickorod Renard: strangely i do
    Fox Monacular: I kind of do too
    Calvino Rabeni: interesting
    arabella Ella: i do too
    Mickorod Renard: although only from my own thoughts on it
    arabella Ella: i think we also censor a lot that happens in our RL somehow ... memories i mean
    Fox Monacular: well, it kind of makes sense if you consides that in dreaming one of the functions might be to evacualte some negative emotions
    Fox Monacular: yes, I agree, Ara
    Calvino Rabeni: I am no expert, but my impression is that there exists research showing the that human mental process is extremely state dependent
    Calvino Rabeni: and that the states are disconnected
    Fox Monacular: I don't really agree with it
    Calvino Rabeni: or semi-dissociated, as the label might be
    Fox Monacular: in fact our research shows that people think in dreams much like in rl
    Fox Monacular: personally I don't really believe in total separation beteen dreaming and waking
    Calvino Rabeni: hypnotists can easily induce amnesia between different events
    Wol Euler nods
    Fox Monacular: some dreaming is more lucid, and some waking is dreamlike
    Calvino Rabeni: right, no total separation
    Calvino Rabeni: that's what "semi-dissociated" means
    Fox Monacular: ok, it is great to talk to you all! sorry I have to go noe:)
    Mickorod Renard: maybe our dream state is just another fractal universe,,extending inwards...just a silly thought
    Fox Monacular: RL visit
    Wol Euler: bye fox, take care. thanks a lot!
    Fox Monacular: maybe, Mick!
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,I have to go too,,thanks alot
    arabella Ella: bye Fox and thanks for your lovely advice and suggestions :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Mick, it's a perfectly nice metaphor
    arabella Ella: and for sharing too
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Fox Monacular: cool thing is that we don't know too much about it:)
    Fox Monacular: yet
    Calvino Rabeni: bye, thanks for all
    Mickorod Renard: bye everyone
    Fox Monacular: bye everyone!
    Mickorod Renard: thanks for a great chat
    arabella Ella: i must be off too
    Wol Euler: bye mick, sleep well. dream happily
    arabella Ella: nite all
    Wol Euler: bye ara
    Mickorod Renard: mite mite,,sleep tite,,
    Calvino Rabeni: Good afternoon all, I enjoyed the talk
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite..sorry..must get a light in here
    Wol Euler: goodngiht calvino, take cre
    Wol Euler: *care
    Calvino Rabeni: you too
    Mickorod Renard: bye Can
    Mickorod Renard: calvino
    Mickorod Renard: wol
    Wol Euler: byeeeeee