2009.11.15 08:00 - how to convey the PaB spirit?

During our weekly guardian meeting, the following 17 guardians were present: Adams Dubrovna, Caledonia Heron, Doug Sosa, Eliza Madrigal, Eos Amaterasu, Fael Illyar, Gaya Ethaniel, Lia Rikugun,  Maxine Walden,Neela Blaisdale,Pema Pera, Pila Mulligan,Stevenaia Michinaga, Storm Nordwind, Widget Whiteberry, Wol Euler and Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Lia Rikugun. (If I forgot someone please feel free to add you name, sorry :)

Lia Rikugun: hello good morning
Pila Mulligan: hi Lia
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
Lia Rikugun: hello steve
Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
Lia Rikugun: hello gaya
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Lia, stevenaia and Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi gang!
Lia Rikugun: hi eos
Eos Amaterasu: Nice to see u, Lia - see u also in Malta?
stevenaia Michinaga: waits for pillows to appear on my side
Lia Rikugun: i hope i can make it, but for now this is the plan ;)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Lia Rikugun: hello widget
Eos Amaterasu: HI Widg, Pema
Widget Whiteberry: hello everyone, hello all
Pila Mulligan: hi Widget, Pema, Eliza
Lia Rikugun: hello eikza, pema
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Widget, Pema, Eliza and Maxine :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Maxine
Lia Rikugun: eliza
Lia Rikugun: hi maxine
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Maxine Walden: hi, Pila, Lia, everyone
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eli, Max
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Pila Mulligan: hi Yak and Adams
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Lia, Gaya, Steve, Eos, Maxine, pema, Widget, Eos, Pila, Adams, Yakuzza :)
Adams Dubrovna: Hello everyone :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Pila Mulligan: hi Storm
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: Hello everyone
Lia Rikugun: hello hello
Eliza Madrigal: Hi doug
Pila Mulligan: hi Doug
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Storm and Doug :)
Lia Rikugun: hi doug
doug Sosa: :)
Eos Amaterasu: showers of greetings, everyone :-)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Pila Mulligan: now here's a fun game: set your view to outside along the sidewalk, and as you see avis approaching open the door for them :)
Pema Pera: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Pila
Pema Pera: like a fish trap?
Pila Mulligan: got Stomr and DOug just now :)
Pila Mulligan: (typo club is in session)
Widget Whiteberry: very hospitable
Gaya Ethaniel: Funny ... half of the hall/people are disappearing now and then on my screen >.<
Lia Rikugun: oh no :(
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry for interrupting ... :)

Pema Pera: Would anyone like to bring up a topic to discuss?
stevenaia Michinaga: ......reading last night log
Pila Mulligan: your email?
stevenaia Michinaga: be back shortly
Pema Pera: I'd be happy to, Pila!
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes um...interesting session
Pema Pera: probably not everybody has had a chance to read it
Widget Whiteberry: How about the focus of the 4 daily sessions
Adams Dubrovna still reading the session
Pema Pera: but the general topic of that email was how to deal with visitors who don't seem to "get" the PaB spirit
Pema Pera: and Wdiget, perhaps we can discuss that at the same time, related for sure!
Eos Amaterasu: One of the aspects of that session was some continuity of coming back to the 9 secs practice
Eliza Madrigal: It was impressive to me that Calvino hung in there... as a new person, there were many strings
Pema Pera: In general, I see three ways of dealing with conversations that seem to stray completely from the PaB way of interacting with each other:
1) ignore those who stray, hoping they will learn by example;
2) address those who stray, explaining how we interact differently;
3) engage those who stray, first going along with their topic and way of talking and then slowly guiding them to a more PaB way of sharing views and experiences.
Pila Mulligan: I try #3, but only for a while :)
Pema Pera: I tend to start with 3), then choose 2) or 1) depending on the personality
stevenaia Michinaga: eos is very good at #3
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pema Pera: yes!
Storm Nordwind: Sadly #3 does not work for some people
Pila Mulligan: Steve does #4
stevenaia Michinaga: 4?
Maxine Walden: !!
Pila Mulligan: #4 = show the equanimity neded to referee a roller derby
Widget Whiteberry: requires clarity and agreement about 'the PaB way" Way?
Gaya Ethaniel: I was somewhat taken aback when I heard from Mary that some guardians told her that she is unwelcome at PaB.
stevenaia Michinaga: laughs
Pema Pera: There is no formula for the "PaB way" Widget
Pema Pera: but we do have a sense of community and when that is being disrupted
Storm Nordwind: I think Gaya, that the situation is that some of her attitudes are not welcome at PaB
Widget Whiteberry: is there a definition of what we do in session?
Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, I've never seen that... I personally have asked her why she comes (particularly to my sessions) since she doesnt seem to like us/me very much
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps she identifies with her attitudes
Pema Pera: we tend to ask "what do you mean" rather than "I disagree!" for example
Eliza Madrigal: Which granted, was an emotional way to deal with her, but :)
Maxine Walden: Gaya, another posible point is that Mary heard any confrontation as 'unwelcome period'.
Pema Pera: no definitions or formulas, Widget
Gaya Ethaniel shrugs ... I don't know. Individually guardians can talk to her how they feel but hope it's not an impression representing the whole group.
Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway, just my feeling ...
Eliza Madrigal: She's a smart girl :)
Pema Pera: as I wrote in my email, I like her persistence and her emphasis on the mundane, two excellent qualities for any explorer/practitioner
Widget Whiteberry steps away briefly, will read and catch up on return
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Caledonia
Pila Mulligan: re smart: I recall she once referred to her post-doctoral work
Caledonia Heron: hi :)
Eliza Madrigal: Well, I meant more in the sense that she knows each of us is speaking for ourselves, I think?
Pila Mulligan: to me she seems habitually contentious in an academic debating kind of way
Eliza Madrigal nods...it IS a way of connecting
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: but yesterday evening she did share a soft moment, which was really touching
Pema Pera: Mary Korpov: i'm not sure you want to hear my experience, but here goes. My son came home from a movie and I felt joy.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: it's a matter of _how_ she comes across; there's glimmers of light that she is showing she is willing go share
Eos Amaterasu: to share
Gaya Ethaniel nods. My impression is that if we can ignore seemingly confrontational way of her speaking to allow her to add more than a statement, there are things that she wants to know from us and want to share.
Eos Amaterasu: It's a matter of how much patience we want to have, and how much to have one person dominate the whole thing.
Pema Pera: if/when she will be reading this log, I hope she will respond to us in sessions to come; I really would like to hear her side more
Storm Nordwind is aware of how Mart's incessant hectoring would come across to newcomers. I wonder whether we need to consider newcomers' meetings or some separation of meeting types again.
Eos Amaterasu: and how to work with that boundary
Pema Pera: and yes, Eos!
Storm Nordwind: *Mary's
Pema Pera: Storm, it may be that yesterday is the beginning of a confrontation that may not last long: my bet will be that either she walks away in a huff, or really agrees to confront us and find some kindof soluton -- it doesn't seem anymore like something lingering and simmering
Pema Pera: wanna bet a beer?
Pema Pera: say, two weeks?
Storm Nordwind: You're telling me Piet that it will never happen again with someone else? :)
Pema Pera: of course it will happen with others
Eos Amaterasu notes there is a tavern across the way
Pema Pera: but each time we find a way of dealing with such a visitor, we get better at it, collectively
Gaya Ethaniel: Well she seemed to soften when I told her that not everyone [well me] is against her attending.
Gaya Ethaniel: soften her*
Pema Pera: and the very way of dealing with them may exemplify the PaB spirit to newcomers
Pema Pera: as long as we don't indulge them endlessly
Maxine Walden: we are wondering about our group and individual tolerance for these aspects...
Pema Pera: I think our indulgence in the past has been as much part of the problem as the attitude of those who haven't fit in
Maxine Walden: and our thinking about them together here may allow each of us to become clearer about our own boundary/tolerance level
Pila Mulligan: how about assinging a mentor to such folks -- someone to coach them in kindliness?
Maxine Walden: yes, indulgence in my mind colludes with the objectional 'stuff'
Pema Pera: would you like to volunteer, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: no
Pema Pera: why not?
Widget Whiteberry: defensive behaviors can be survival necessities in some enviroments, perhaps
Pila Mulligan: I lack clniical skills
Gaya Ethaniel: I think that was last Wed. Eliza's session. Mary was a good participant I felt.
Widget Whiteberry: it would be helpful to clarify that they are not survival necessities in the PaB environment
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, although she wanted to participate without reading the notecard
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Maxine Walden: not sure if Pila is serious, but I truly wonder whether coaching would work, in that they are trying to 'get rid' of something objectionable in themselves and thus perhpas get it into others of into the space of the group
Eliza Madrigal: but yes, she was able to participate...just not be quite on the page as a matter of 'statement' I felt
Pila Mulligan: just an idea,Maxine
Pema Pera: also we can't take responsibility for psychological problems of avatars we don't know at all in RL
Gaya Ethaniel: Well ... Eliza even in Kira events, most of them don't read papers proposed in advance of meetings so I'm not going to see that as something against her.
Eliza Madrigal is not making a case and feels she's been very patient :)
Eliza Madrigal: Even Sweet :)
Widget Whiteberry smiles at Eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Of course you are Eliza ... I'm not critisising you.
Eos Amaterasu: It's not that life-and-death, real issues, are not allowed inside PaB, but once inside they are dealt with in a life-and-death manner
Eos Amaterasu: they are not short-shrifted
Eos Amaterasu: Ie, Mary can be included, but it might feel dangerous, but hopefully in a humorous way, to her
Eos Amaterasu: She is the bird
Eos Amaterasu: (reference to the log, sorry)
Pema Pera: interesting angle, Eos, yes
Pema Pera: are there other topics we would like to bring up?
stevenaia Michinaga: thinking about tolerance refered to earlier, buttons being pushed (a topic that comes up now and then) and Wu Wei
Gaya Ethaniel: I think every guardian should feel encourage to say directly how someone like Arch or Mary engage as appropriate during the session to minimise these topics sprouting out too much.
Gaya Ethaniel: Scath told me she forgot all about the incident afterwards and had no problem having Arch again.
Gaya Ethaniel: And deal with him as and when appropriate.
Gaya Ethaniel: Why can't each guardians do more like this?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, and also she was ready to deal with him on the spot
Eliza Madrigal nods
Maxine Walden: I think your suggestion, Gaya, also demonstrates courage but also respect for the group space
Eliza Madrigal: I learned much from her interraction
stevenaia Michinaga: there is engagement with heighten blood pressure and then there is"no attack felt" the battle is over before it begins
Storm Nordwind hopes that the great example that Scath set can be mirrored by himself, and hopefull all. To let hurt and anger go like that is a great thing.
Eos Amaterasu: willing to engage, but careful not to hurt
Maxine Walden: (interesting that we are so drawn to these difficult behaviours, and how to handle them, which means as Storm is suggesting, letting them go without being withered by them
Maxine Walden: )

Pema Pera: after discussing what we don't want to do in sessions, shall we take Widget's suggestion and talk about what we do want to do, with respect to the 9 secs and related talk about practice and personal experience?
Maxine Walden: good idea, Pema
Storm Nordwind nods
Widget Whiteberry: From an email thread, I was interested in Storm's ideas about "Pure Play as Being" and "Applied Play as Being"
doug Sosa: I winder how we could use such episodes and the 9 sec togehter, "how does this moment look in 9sec? Might learn about mind, relation to body, passion, defensiveness, etc.
doug Sosa: wonder..
Widget Whiteberry: Storm wrote: 'the practice of Play as Being itself (the base level), and how the practice of Play as Being has influenced and can influence my life and the lives of others (one level removed).'
Pema Pera would love to hear more from Storm about differen PaB angles!
Widget Whiteberry hopes Storm is with us
Eliza Madrigal listens intently
Storm Nordwind is listening!
Pema Pera: silence before the Storm
Pila Mulligan: hi Neela
Eliza Madrigal: (Hi Neela)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Neela Blaisdale: Hello everyone:)
Lia Rikugun: hi neela
Storm Nordwind: I simply put forward the different levels I see of conversation in the PaB pavilion. As well as the two levels that Widget cites, I also had a third level - often taken up in theme sessions
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
Lia Rikugun: hello fael
Maxine Walden: hi, Fael, Wol
Eliza Madrigal: (Hi Fael )
Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Fael
Pila Mulligan: hi Fael and Wol
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Wol
Lia Rikugun: hi wol
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Wol
Storm Nordwind: My personal opinion was that stuff beyond those three levels, and frankly it often comes to that, might be minimized by simply emphasizing the more fundamental levels
Widget Whiteberry: this morning the session came around to love, attachment and connection... I wondered where that conversations falls with respect to those levels
Widget Whiteberry: wonder*
Eliza Madrigal: (with an attempt at 'Being Seeing" at the end)

Storm Nordwind: I'm very much in favour of discussing all these things. What I'm intent on is maximizing the very precious time we have in th Pavilion. So some things might be better discussed elsewhere or in the same place at different times
Fael Illyar: Hi Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: wb Eos
Widget Whiteberry: In principal, I like what you are saying, Storm. In practice, I'm not confident that I know where the lines are
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Eos:)
Storm Nordwind: The reason for that problem, Widget, is that we are trying to pack everything into one meeting type and time
Storm Nordwind: Because we have only one opportunity, the natural lines are not evident
Maxine Walden: Storm, do you have a thought of what we might talk about here in the precious guardian time?
Widget Whiteberry nods
Storm Nordwind: If we had a diversity of oportunities, I think it would naturally happen
Caledonia Heron: maybe one guideline is that if it is your direct experience, it is likely appropriate
Pema Pera: yes
Storm Nordwind: At the moment, Maxine, I think we are communally deciding and iterating. The PaB sessions (that I'm talking about) are different as I think a year and a half of iterating has shown it fairly clearly
Pema Pera: though I think that the average session could be improved a lot stil in terms of focus and engagement
Storm Nordwind: And I am thinking, Pema, that the focus could be improved if there were opportunities for what you might call off-focus things elsewhere or elsewhen
Pema Pera: as we are doing more and more, with book club and other meetings in the Village
Fael Illyar: best if it's both elsewhere and elsewhen.

Pema Pera: Maxine, do you think it would help to choose a topic in advance, before this weekly guardian meeting, for everyone to reflect on?
Pema Pera: yes, Fael, better not to overlap with PaB times
Maxine Walden: It seems to me that we as guardians may be coming to these meetings with hopes to share, learn, cohere...I am wondering, Pema if it might be good to choose a kind of topic or sector for thought for these meetings. wonder what others think?
Widget Whiteberry: the between guardian meeting email threads seem a source of topics
Lia Rikugun: i would like to have a topic in mind before the meeting
doug Sosa: A predecided topic just adds more rigidity. An alternative is to go around the room and have everyone say the topic most on their minds, and then let the group process focus.
Gaya Ethaniel: It'd be good for me at least because I like having some time to think before actual meetings.
doug Sosa: In the guardian meetings
Storm Nordwind: Let's go round the room on the email list instead doug!
Wol Euler nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Even with the 'struggle' discussions at PaB, I get a lot more out because I had time to think a bit and look around my life before the actual session.
Pema Pera: /nods 2
Widget Whiteberry: Storm +++
Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
Eos Amaterasu: Maybe Maxine could propose a topic, next Friday, for next Sunday's guardian mtg
Maxine Walden: uh oh...hmmm...
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Eos Amaterasu: (lobby Maxine (by email!))
stevenaia Michinaga: no pressure, Maxine
Pema Pera: :)
Widget Whiteberry: or on Saturday we could dedicate an email thread to what's on people's minds
Pema Pera: I like that idea, Widget!
Maxine Walden: we could try that, and I would be willing to have a go at a topic, but it might also seem too narrow for some...
Gaya Ethaniel: By Sat would be better for me, I'm not around on Sats.
Maxine Walden: yes, I like that idea too, W2
Pema Pera: but how about Friday instead? Time zones may cause lag
Pema Pera: So someone, like Maxine (hint hint) starts a thread on Friday
Pema Pera: and we all join in, if we want
stevenaia Michinaga: or perhaps just asks
Maxine Walden: OK,OK I will give it a try!!
Pema Pera: :)
Eos Amaterasu: applause!
Maxine Walden: :)))
Pema Pera: clap clap clap
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Maxine :)
stevenaia Michinaga: bows
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Storm Nordwind: And we are all self-discplined enough not to go tangentally on the thread, but to start new ones or simply wait if we want to weigh in deeply or at length
Maxine Walden: now, just a minute, which email group do we use for this Friday strand? Do we have one just for guardians?
Pema Pera: playasbeing
Pema Pera: at google.com
Pema Pera: oops, yes, sorry
Pema Pera: that's the only one we got
Maxine Walden: is playasbeing just for guardians? guess so....humm
Pema Pera: yes
Storm Nordwind nods
Maxine Walden: OK, interesting I had lost sight of that!!
Pema Pera: and it is not public
Maxine Walden: was thinking of the wider PaB community

Gaya Ethaniel: I have a request actually.
Gaya Ethaniel: Can we have a longer period to consider a guardian candidate than now from the point they are nominated?
Pema Pera: sure, how long would you like, Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: At the moment, it seems a few days or so after nomination, a person is asked accepted but I would like some time to read any logs they have been in or chance to meet him in person.
Gaya Ethaniel: 1-2 weeks not sure what do you all think?
Maxine Walden: interesting point, Gaya
Pema Pera: if somebody asks, to let that person wait two weeks may be a bit long; how about 1 week?
Eos Amaterasu: Seems fine, does put more of an onus on someone to track the process when it happens over time
Eos Amaterasu: re GE
stevenaia Michinaga: the threads are dated
Pema Pera: Eliza will accept any volunteer happy to oversee the process :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: maybe that could be their mentor
Gaya Ethaniel: How do people generally go about? Do you talk about the possibility to the person before nominating her/him to the group? Or suggest a name in the group first before talking to the person?
Eliza Madrigal: I like the idea of more room there... a week seems sufficient
Eos Amaterasu: joining topics :-)
Pema Pera: seriously, Eliza is the coordinator for all things guardians in this respect, but she needs others to help her carry out all that work
Pema Pera: it depends, Gaya, both cases happen
Widget Whiteberry: I would not have minded waiting a week, or even two, from the time I was suggested
Eos Amaterasu: How about if someone nominates a person, they become their "shepherd" for joining the flock :-)
Pema Pera: often I ask someone first, saving us the trouble to discuss someone if they are not interested
Eliza Madrigal: yes, and we really don't want to talk to someone ahead of time, and then there be an issue
Wol Euler: did you know that you had been suggested, Widget?
Eliza Madrigal: it is better to bring it within our group first
Gaya Ethaniel: I feel that it's best to just nominate a person to the group first?
Pema Pera: it depends, Eliza, I have not encountered problems with people who seemed a sure fit
Maxine Walden: differing opinions here...
Pema Pera: like Widget :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: if it's a week, there wuld be at least one guardian meeting to possibly discuss the candidate
Neela Blaisdale: Yes I agree.. otherwise they might be concerned while waiting...
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes I suppose I imagine the awkwardness of getting someone excited perhaps
Pema Pera: but if I have my doubts, then I prefer first to ask the group, not nice to reject somebody
Eliza Madrigal nods
Neela Blaisdale: and then feeling rejected...
Widget Whiteberry: Pema told me in advance and explained the process
Eliza Madrigal: exactly
Neela Blaisdale: yes Pema
Widget Whiteberry: phew, guess I was lucky
Eliza Madrigal: haha... a no-brainer Widget :)
Pema Pera: another example I'm about to bring up is someone I have known in RL personally for five years, and worked together with -- in that case I asked him beforehand, a few times, he now agreed to be candidate.
Pema Pera: if I had brought him up earlier, we would have had to go through the process a few times, putting extra pressure on him
Pema Pera: (I'll send an email today)
Eliza Madrigal: yes that seems very particular, also... not often that we know potential guardians in RL
Pema Pera: so I guess we can be flexible, and all use our best judgment
Gaya Ethaniel nods. That's an unusual case, RL recommendation. I guess I'm talking more generally about candidiates within/from SL.
Widget Whiteberry grins at the thought of PaB and 'no-brainer'
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Pema Pera: all heart and soul, WW!
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Maxine Walden: seems we are coming to the end of the hour...
Pema Pera: well, a good point to end our meeting perhaps?
Maxine Walden: seems so
Eliza Madrigal raises hand
Pila Mulligan: bye everyone
Storm Nordwind: Pumpkin time for anyone?
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
Neela Blaisdale: Bye...
Eliza Madrigal: Bye everyone, Thanks so much
Maxine Walden: bye all
Adams Dubrovna: bye everyone :)
Pema Pera: thank you all !
Widget Whiteberry: pumpkin time?
Lia Rikugun: byebye
Eos Amaterasu notes the Princeton board room where the RL retreat was held is now in SL, thanks to SophiaSharon
Wol Euler: bye, take care.
Fael Illyar: bye everyone :)
Storm Nordwind: Cinderella et al Widget
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Neela Blaisdale: Pumpkin Storm?
Widget Whiteberry: this was wonderful, thank you all
Storm Nordwind: The Cinderella fairy story Neela
Neela Blaisdale: Ah... a little slow today:)
Lia Rikugun: good bye see you all next time
Lia Rikugun: will post the log :)
Wol Euler: bye! enjoy your sundays
Eos Amaterasu: bye all
Neela Blaisdale: Bye everyone...
Fael Illyar waves.