2009.11.13 19:00 - Learning from Others

The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

Vajra Raymaker: Hi Genesis
Eden Haiku: We can chat until the bell rings than stop.
Eden Haiku: Hi Genesis
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Eden, hi Vajra!
Vajra Raymaker: oh, Genesis, I see you're serving as guardian
genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed
Vajra Raymaker: I was wondering how that worked.
Vajra Raymaker: I can see the PaB message that says that you receive a link to the log.
Vajra Raymaker: Do you have to do anything with it?
genesis Zhangsun: yes I just clicked on the triangle in the fountain to claim it
genesis Zhangsun: how are you two doing tonight?
Vajra Raymaker: Do you then edit, or provide commentary, before posting?
Eden Haiku: I'm good thanks. How are you?
genesis Zhangsun: no I generally just post it
genesis Zhangsun: lazy :)
Vajra Raymaker: A bit discombuberated -- but that's not unusual. How are you?
genesis Zhangsun: do you have an interest vajra in becoming a GOC- guardian on call?
Vajra Raymaker: (tks for explaining how it works, the recording/posting)
Eden Haiku: I had an interesting experince this afternoon.
Vajra Raymaker: I think I am one, Genesis.
Vajra Raymaker: But I have not served yet... and actually received a message to cover some days.
genesis Zhangsun: ah okay
Vajra Raymaker: But I have not been here for awhile, so wanted to get connected back in to the way of doing things here, first.
genesis Zhangsun: yes Eden?
genesis Zhangsun: oh really Vajra, why is that?
genesis Zhangsun: busy?
Vajra Raymaker: I'm not sure why, Genesis : -) I want to hear your experience too, Eden.
Eden Haiku: Trying to summarize it... It is about a turn of energy, a change in the overflow of energy...A simple experience really.
Vajra Raymaker: (I will try to think of why though, gen.)
Eden Haiku: It happended shortly after I had 9 sec awareness as I was crossing a street in the golden afternoon.
Eden Haiku: I was shopping for perfume, for a gift, shortly after that. In a bid department store.
Eden Haiku: *Big.
Eden Haiku: The salesladies annoyed me . They kept showing me gift boxes for Christmas. I wanted a simple perfume for a birthday gift.
Eden Haiku: I beacme a bit rude, Saying «Let me look, please»,
Eden Haiku: Than, this salesman, smiling South American guy, asked me what I wanted exactly. And he actually listened...
Eden Haiku: He lead me to another counter, I treid a few other scents thans no, no, no I did not like. He brought me to another counter to a nice saleslady who found exactly waht I needed. From then on, my whole afternoon shifted.
Eden Haiku: I even talked to three people on the subway ride on my way back home...
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Eos :) Eden is telling us about an experience with 9 seconds
Eos Amaterasu listens
Eden Haiku: I learnt something about people. About how one person can transform and lit a whole day and then everopne else is lit also. Even the bus driver!
Eden Haiku: Sorry, this is not clearer. It was like the short 9 sec opened a whole new feld in which to experience something new.
Eden Haiku: *field
genesis Zhangsun: I know what you mean Eden :)
genesis Zhangsun: thanks for sharing that
Eden Haiku: Thanks for listening ;-)
Eos Amaterasu thinks, lighting the field
Eos Amaterasu: thnx for that (even the tail end :-)
Eden Haiku: ;-))
genesis Zhangsun: its amazing what happens when someone really listens and you feel heard
genesis Zhangsun: there is more space to breathe
Vajra Raymaker: He showed.... expressed... that you mattered.
Eden Haiku: Isn'it? It is a skill I would really like to develop.
genesis Zhangsun: well I won't speak for everyone but I think that is a big part of why I am here :)
Eden Haiku: He gave me his skill for a short while this afternnon, that is how I could smile at the lady who was tired next to me in the subway and she opened up.
Vajra Raymaker: It is interesting that kindness and attention can have such a powerful effect.
Vajra Raymaker: and being open to it I guess
genesis Zhangsun: passing it along thats great Eden :)
genesis Zhangsun: indeed Vajra
Eden Haiku: It is so simple rally, I wonder why I spend so much time being afraid of people...;-)
genesis Zhangsun: well sometimes people are scary
Eden Haiku: *really
genesis Zhangsun: and mostly because we are scary
Eos Amaterasu: where the wild things are
Eden Haiku: To let our heart love is so simple yet...
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Vajra Raymaker: Well.... when people are in pain it is harder
genesis Zhangsun: and when you are in pain dealing with others in pain
Eos Amaterasu: to be in the wilderness, not just beatific, but also raw, where life is
Eden Haiku: Yes, we have all these layewrs of fear, like barbed wire around us most of the time.
Eden Haiku: Yes, the wilderness, you are rught Eos.
Paradise Tennant: good evening everyone :)
genesis Zhangsun: yes nature is raw and alive
genesis Zhangsun: hey Paradise!
Paradise Tennant: :)
Eos Amaterasu: HI Paradise.... Eden has been recounting The everyday practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance and openness to all situations and emotionHI Paradise
Vajra Raymaker: A sense of physical well being seems to make a huge difference (for me) as to whether I feel spacious, gathered, kind, aware of my connection to others....
genesis Zhangsun: definitely
genesis Zhangsun: mind and body are two aspect of the same thing
Paradise Tennant: :) nods .. acceptance surrender .. all good :)
Vajra Raymaker: Sitting still will provide it, meditating, but when not in that practice, it is actually physical exercise that makes a difference
Eos Amaterasu: How so, Vajra?
Vajra Raymaker: Just for the sense of physical well being, I'm thinking Eos....
Eos Amaterasu: synching mind & body
Eos Amaterasu: & world
genesis Zhangsun: well meditation can go on a walk with you too :)
Paradise Tennant: :)
Vajra Raymaker: Just thinking that when my days are a rush, and I have a lot of balls in the air.... the physical discomfort (corresponding with the mental confusion I suspoose) leads to gracelessness
Vajra Raymaker: : -) yes, Gen
Eden Haiku: It is all very mysterious I think. It seems that some grace is howring blessings on us sometimes. Just like this pink hue on this beautiful garden here...;-)
genesis Zhangsun: well I guess the first step is to notice the discomfort and where 9 seconds is useful at least for me
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: lots of grace showering blessings
Paradise Tennant: yes ..just need to appreciate and see them clearly :)
genesis Zhangsun: I got a major slap in the face today
Eden Haiku: I am feeling so grateful for Play as Being.
genesis Zhangsun: it was terrible and yet completely raw and alive
Vajra Raymaker: How Gen?
Eos Amaterasu listens
Eden Haiku: What happened?
genesis Zhangsun: yes me too Eden :)
genesis Zhangsun: well...such a long story so trying to find a way to be brief
Eden Haiku: listening with interest. Take your time.
genesis Zhangsun: well I was discussing meditation practice with a friend and her friend who I deeply respect
Eden Haiku: Yes
genesis Zhangsun: somehow I offended him
genesis Zhangsun: when talking about play as being
genesis Zhangsun: he felt provoked by my statement that for me meditation practice is not about sitting to become enlightened but rather sitting to appreciate we are alread enlightened
genesis Zhangsun: basically the central point here at PaB
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
genesis Zhangsun: at least for me
Eden Haiku: ;-)
genesis Zhangsun: he felt that I was arrogant
Eden Haiku: I like that!
Vajra Raymaker: that's a hard one
Eden Haiku: No you are not arrogant.
Eos Amaterasu: bowing to all inherent sources of enlightenment
genesis Zhangsun: he said that what I was talking about was "theory"
Eos Amaterasu: it's not, or more than personal
genesis Zhangsun: and that in his practice he did not feel the completeness inherent in the situation as I explained it
Vajra Raymaker: What makes you think you offended him as opposed to saying something with which he disagreed, gen?
genesis Zhangsun: wait Eos I didn't get to the part where I mistepped
Vajra Raymaker: k
Eos Amaterasu waits....
genesis Zhangsun: so instead of at that point shrugging and listening carefully to him
genesis Zhangsun: I also got provoked
Eden Haiku: Is'nt it true that we are enlightened already and we just keep forgetting it? It makes sense to me. But I understand how this kind of conversation is difficult Genesis.
genesis Zhangsun: he said that he wasn't familiar with tibetan buddhism
genesis Zhangsun: and that his approach was along the lines of a mahayana approach
Eden Haiku: smiles
genesis Zhangsun: so I went into academic mode
Eden Haiku: I bet you did!
Vajra Raymaker: hee hee I just started typing something in academic mode
Eos Amaterasu: (and through and though our vorpal blade went snicker snack?
Eos Amaterasu: your
Eden Haiku: ?
Vajra Raymaker: heh
genesis Zhangsun: and pointed out that well in fact in the mahayana approach was the product of precisely Nagarjuna's deconstruction of the Abidharma
genesis Zhangsun: in regular people speak
genesis Zhangsun: meaning that Nagarjuna rejected the linear path to enlightenment as outlined by the skandha approach
genesis Zhangsun: anyway whatever not the point
Eden Haiku: Nagarjuna is always a big help in that kind of situation... The emptiness bit...especially..
Eos Amaterasu: when you deconstruct reality you have nothing left?
genesis Zhangsun: exactly Eos
Paradise Tennant: ;)
genesis Zhangsun: so my point was just to say that the view of completeness is also without the mahaya through emptiness
genesis Zhangsun: *mahayana
genesis Zhangsun: he did not take well to this
genesis Zhangsun: and stopped me during my history lecture
genesis Zhangsun: and asked me if I thought I was his teacher
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Eden Haiku: oh oh...
genesis Zhangsun: I was so shocked
genesis Zhangsun: I am 28 he is in his 60s
genesis Zhangsun: I was sure this was part of it
Vajra Raymaker: you should have said "sure" we are all each others teachers
Paradise Tennant: :)
genesis Zhangsun: well Vajra I eventually got there
Paradise Tennant: yes
Eden Haiku: Sorry to hear that. That is sad.
genesis Zhangsun: it ended well
Eden Haiku: How so?
genesis Zhangsun: but I had to go into a complete warrior like mode to get him to understand that I didn't think I was a guru
Eden Haiku: But you seems still abit bruised by the confrontation?
genesis Zhangsun: it was intense Eden
--BELL--
Vajra Raymaker: Well, it is long a part of the tradition is it not to have scholarly debates as well as to practice?
genesis Zhangsun: I felt sick to my stomach the whole 9 yards
Paradise Tennant: ouch then a very emotional confrontation
genesis Zhangsun: yes I thought so but I felt like his startling comment slapped me awake
genesis Zhangsun: here I was retreating into scholarly speak to defend my practice
Vajra Raymaker: Maybe he was happy and not offended the whole time, while only you suffered for not wanting him to be offended
Eden Haiku: Ah, I see what you mean. You are willing to go through the discomfort to learn. That is wise.
genesis Zhangsun: intead of dropping all weapons
Eos Amaterasu: openness can be a long and winding road :-)
genesis Zhangsun: I think Eos said it well with his snipping comment :)
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Eden Haiku: I agree.
genesis Zhangsun: in the end I think I disarmed
genesis Zhangsun: and so did he
Vajra Raymaker: 'snipping' yes very descriptive
genesis Zhangsun: but it took some retracing
Paradise Tennant: do you think you shared a commonality ?
Paradise Tennant: a mutual view ?
genesis Zhangsun: could u say more Paradise?
Paradise Tennant: a middle ground
Paradise Tennant: where in some aspect his view mirrored yours
Eden Haiku: What do mean by «retracing» Genesis?
genesis Zhangsun: well I guess we could appreciate the paradox of using words to talk about this stuff
Paradise Tennant: lol lovely
Eos Amaterasu: Tilopa slapped Naropa with a sandal
Paradise Tennant: so much bigger than words .. what 8 vowels sounds .. to capture buddha nature !
Eos Amaterasu: be grateful for teachers wherever ou find them :-)
genesis Zhangsun: lol I guess I got off easy Eos
genesis Zhangsun: its true Eos, and we often have the most to learn from those who provoke us the most
genesis Zhangsun: push our buttons
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: it challenges our perspective
Paradise Tennant: perspective is key :)
Eos Amaterasu: but it seems there was a wake-up quality as you describe it, Gen
genesis Zhangsun: indeed there was Eos, which was really the most interesting part of the experience for me
genesis Zhangsun: I felt so shocked
genesis Zhangsun: that it took me awhile to collect myself and appreciate what he was saying without letting it push my buttons
genesis Zhangsun: I felt like he was testing me
genesis Zhangsun: that what we were talking about was not something for debate/discourse
Eden Haiku: Testing you: an interesting outlook on this situation...
genesis Zhangsun: my appeal was non relevant
genesis Zhangsun: I was not speaking to be understood
genesis Zhangsun: I was speaking to be right
Paradise Tennant: hmm right?
Eden Haiku: I like the distinction you are making.
genesis Zhangsun: exactly silly huh Paradise?
Vajra Raymaker: Do you think that he would be happy to remember that he was offendded or to believe that you thought he was offended?
Vajra Raymaker: I am thinking about what offence comes to
Eos Amaterasu: touché
genesis Zhangsun: hey steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Eden Haiku: hi!
Paradise Tennant: well maybe the wake up .. is how difficult it is to not be entrapped by our egos .. by our wanting to be right ..we are in the box on that one :)
Vajra Raymaker: How it may be connected to a sense of rank, which in turn is connected to a belief in the substantiveness of ego... perhaps... then again....
stevenaia Michinaga: running a bit late
Eos Amaterasu: aia aia
Paradise Tennant: hiya steve
Paradise Tennant: *all
Vajra Raymaker: hi Steve
genesis Zhangsun: thanks for letting me share
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: Sometimes you can share openness: as in....
Eden Haiku: I could feel a wealth of emotion as you were sharing Genesis, thank you.
Eos Amaterasu: [19:21] Eden Haiku: He gave me his skill for a short while this afternnon, that is how I could smile at the lady who was tired next to me in the subway and she opened up.
Eden Haiku: ;-)
Vajra Raymaker: It was generous of you.... a good story to reflect upon... thank you
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, very real, vivid, pertinent
Vajra Raymaker: both stories
Paradise Tennant: yes ..always .. good to reflect on intensity ..
genesis Zhangsun: yes I think there was nice balance in our stories Eden
genesis Zhangsun: :) the light and dark side of 9 seconds
Paradise Tennant: a:)
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Vajra Raymaker: >:-)
Eden Haiku: I'm new to Play as Being.Have you guys been coming here for a long time. I know Steve has been here for more than a year, from the start almost.
genesis Zhangsun: I really appreciate the great questions and feedback it has really helped me reflect on the situation
stevenaia Michinaga: <--- a creature of habit
Paradise Tennant: be nice to think he reflected on the situation and gained too :)
Paradise Tennant: :)
Eden Haiku: What about others?
Eos Amaterasu: I think April was my first time here
genesis Zhangsun: Eden, I have also been here since the beginning
Paradise Tennant: relatively new .. stumbled in by accident ..but have been very much enjoying the company and conversation :)
Calvino Rabeni: New New.
Eden Haiku: I find this circle a very special place indeed.
Eos Amaterasu: being mind, newbie mind
Eden Haiku: Welcome Calvino!
Vajra Raymaker: I started coming a few months ago, Eden, I can't quite remember when. But then have been absent for a couple months
Calvino Rabeni: Anyone get onto this thru RL network of some kind?
Eden Haiku: And now you are a guardian ;-)
Vajra Raymaker: I hope to start coming more now
genesis Zhangsun: I remember your great theme sessions Vajra on no self
Vajra Raymaker: And after December my schedule should be much better
genesis Zhangsun: Cal, yes some of us met in RL before coming here
genesis Zhangsun: but most through SL
Eden Haiku: Found about Kira Café on the search list about India. Then met Storm on the lawan somehere around here..;-) All SL.
Vajra Raymaker: : -) They barely got started, Gen.
genesis Zhangsun: you should start them up again, such a worthy topic
Vajra Raymaker: I have a great interest in that, and in issues about meaning and how our thoughts reach out to the world
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Doug!
Eos Amaterasu: bye all, thank you very much
stevenaia Michinaga: hello dogg
stevenaia Michinaga: Doug
Paradise Tennant: nite nite eos
Vajra Raymaker: Hi Doug : -)
Eos Amaterasu: hey la, hey aloha!
genesis Zhangsun: bye Eos!
doug Sosa: sorry for the late hour..
Vajra Raymaker: Bye Eos, tc
Paradise Tennant: hiya doug ;)
doug Sosa: Hi, just got to writing after ariving home and didn't notice the time.
genesis Zhangsun: nice of you to join us doug
Calvino Rabeni: Vajra, doyou believe in "noosphere" and related ideas?
doug Sosa: I love this time.
Eden Haiku: Hi Doug.
doug Sosa: :)
Vajra Raymaker: Calvino, can you tell me about nosphere?
stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere
Paradise Tennant: thanks steve :)
Calvino Rabeni: Idea that human minds link up in a way that can be considered a parallel layer of earth systems
Calvino Rabeni: Similar to old book "Metaman".
doug Sosa: To me yes minds link up, but not in their completeness. what is linked is only partial.
Vajra Raymaker: Is that thought to be what is to come, Calvino? A future for us?
Eden Haiku: It is connected to Princeton it seems just as PaB is, in a way ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: I think that is the idea, that a layer of links is becoming denser. In that sense, we are creating it by participation.
Eden Haiku: tell us more.
Calvino Rabeni: I think there's something to it as an ecology, but not metaphysic.
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Storm
Paradise Tennant: hiya storm :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi!
Vajra Raymaker: How could an ecology not be a metaphysic? I think of metaphysics as everything that is, that exists.
Eden Haiku: Hello Storm!
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Storm!
Calvino Rabeni: Well, you have a brain that internalizes patterns, andnow some of thm have to do with other minds distrubuted around th planet.
Vajra Raymaker: What is the distinction you're after, Calvino?
Vajra Raymaker: Hi, Storm : -)
Calvino Rabeni: I meant metaphysic as something like, dualistic idea of energy fields. Not sureI want toget into it.
--BELL--
Vajra Raymaker: As when people use terms like resonance, Calvino (in response to your comment about a brain internalizing patterns tath have to do with other minds). Resonance and other metaphors from sound?
Eden Haiku: I have been having this pattern in my mind for years, a king of geometric structure, a yantra. I wabted to build it when I firts got in Sl so I could share it.
Eden Haiku: But building is not for newbies...
Paradise Tennant: :) here is where dreams are very doable :) it is a mecca of creativity
Vajra Raymaker: : -) Eden
Eden Haiku: I like the idea of patterns with resonance.
genesis Zhangsun: hey all I have to get going but so nice to see you all here!
Calvino Rabeni: Lots of loose metaphors in new age thinking... resonance, harmonic convergence, "light". I'm OK with these as metaphors but not to be taken as physics.
Vajra Raymaker: bye genesis : -)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye
Paradise Tennant: nite nite gen a pleasure :)
Storm Nordwind waves to gen :)
Vajra Raymaker: okay, Calvino
Eden Haiku: Nice to see you. Thank you again for the sharing Gen.
genesis Zhangsun: I would like to make a quick announcement that starting next week I will starting a series of theme sessions on PaB and Sustainability
Calvino Rabeni: sounds goo
Paradise Tennant: nice thank you
genesis Zhangsun: exploring how the internal process connects to the external dilemma of our planet
genesis Zhangsun: take care!
genesis Zhangsun: thanks again!
Calvino Rabeni: interesting prospect
Vajra Raymaker: But you suppose that there is some explanation of the shared ideas that people have Calvino
Vajra Raymaker: ?
Calvino Rabeni: :)
doug Sosa: well poeople do ommunicate and hence share communications. is there more tha that, that is the question.
Calvino Rabeni: Well we all have similar eyes and modes of perception and can look around and interpret the world. That has more explanatory power than mystic influences of various kinds.
Vajra Raymaker: yes, actual verbal communication and communication with technical devices and observed bodily behaviour combined with knowledge of conventions.... but is there something more?
Paradise Tennant: hmm yes
Paradise Tennant: there is
Calvino Rabeni: It's more in the sense of being thicker, not a separate layer
Calvino Rabeni: Vajra, where would you look for "more"
Calvino Rabeni: ?
doug Sosa: we do each contribute from the deeper layers in ourselves. but this can lead to mistakes as well as chardin loike aagreements.
doug Sosa: like..
Vajra Raymaker: oh, Calvino, probably at the level of quantum physics (which I knew next to nothing about). That is why I actually thought that resonance would be apropos. But in truth, I was assuming that you had a proposal in the noosphere idea... just inquiring into what it is you are saying
Vajra Raymaker: know* not knew
Eden Haiku: Time to leave for me. Good nite everyone!
Paradise Tennant: nite nite eden thank you
Storm Nordwind: Bye Eden!
Vajra Raymaker: Night, Eden. Nice meeting you.
doug Sosa: I too must go. bye all.
Vajra Raymaker: Night Doug, good seeing you
Paradise Tennant: good nite doug
Calvino Rabeni: Well, not a worked out proposal, but observations are worth attending to.
Paradise Tennant: sigh it is late here .. I will scoot too .. thank you all . interesting conversation .. :)
Calvino Rabeni: And then we have to synthesize new explanations or stories to account for them.
Vajra Raymaker: Night Paradise : -)
Vajra Raymaker: I should be off too
stevenaia Michinaga: I am nodding off.. long week
stevenaia Michinaga: bye all
Storm Nordwind: Goodnight Steve
Vajra Raymaker: Observations, yes Calv, for sure : -)
Calvino Rabeni: guess we're scattering then. Se you again
Vajra Raymaker: See you another time!
Calvino Rabeni: storm, are you prime builder of what's around here?
Storm Nordwind: yes I am
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: nice work
Storm Nordwind: Thank you so much!
Calvino Rabeni: is it hard to learn the technical stuff like huds and pose balls?
Storm Nordwind: It's comparatively easy
Storm Nordwind: Just takes practice
Storm Nordwind: If you are artistic or engineering inclined, it's easy I think!
Calvino Rabeni: is it done in-world or do you need a development platform of some kind
Storm Nordwind: All inworld. That's the main problem
Calvino Rabeni: right
Storm Nordwind: But be careful - it's addictive!
Calvino Rabeni: I tried SL in 2007, then away for 2 years. Does it evolve slowly?
Storm Nordwind: SL as a whole? Yes. It has Voice now. It has no casinos anymore. It has better clouds etc
Vajra Raymaker: Take care both
Calvino Rabeni: Building tools? Did you place these columns and all by hand?
Calvino Rabeni: bye V.
Storm Nordwind waves
Storm Nordwind: Yes I did
Storm Nordwind: But it's easy - watch!
Calvino Rabeni: And the script that makes people dance around, can I see the code somewhere?
Calvino Rabeni: Easy to create the primjs then. Getting them precisely positioned, is that easy too?
Calvino Rabeni: Oh I guess you spend time shopping for objects (pillows, pools, etc/)?
Storm Nordwind: There's the code. There's the animation also. The code for that is actually quite simple. The animation is more complex. Very often it's the other way round
Storm Nordwind: It depends on the complexity. I make most stuff myself
Storm Nordwind: If I can't make quickly, I buy
Storm Nordwind: Positioning is easy
Storm Nordwind: But these are just the tools
Storm Nordwind: You still need to design
Calvino Rabeni: How does one do "tai chi ball"?
Storm Nordwind: You still need to be an artist
Storm Nordwind: That's mostly a complex animation
Storm Nordwind: There are special offline tools to do those
Storm Nordwind: The scripting for that is also quite simple
Storm Nordwind: The scripting is done online
Storm Nordwind: The prim building is done online too
Storm Nordwind: Textures can be created offline but they need to manipulated online
Storm Nordwind: Sometimes I'll buy something just for the texture provided I have mod-rights. Then I pull it apart and create what I want!
Calvino Rabeni: I am trying to get a feel for what's possible. Could you do a mashup from external data, say, display someone's friend list from a social site?
Storm Nordwind: You can. Visit the NOAA site in SL to see a demo of that. Personally I pipe in the Kira Cafe calendar to SL. But that's not very dynamic.
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: But I can show you here if you wish
Calvino Rabeni: ok
Storm Nordwind: Please follow