2009.11.14 19:00 - Being Blunt with Mary

No guardian was assigned to this slot, so Eos Amaterasu claimed the log. The comments are by Eos (Pema et al, please add your own ...)

Archmage Atlantis: Hello 
Archmage Atlantis: and eos
Mary Korpov: Hello
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Archmage and Mary
Eos Amaterasu: How are you this evening?
Mary Korpov: ok
Archmage Atlantis: troubled
Eos Amaterasu: PaB and trouble, being in trouble
Archmage Atlantis: To be honest is to not pretend
Mary Korpov: boil boil toil and trouble
Archmage Atlantis: cauldren boils
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes our stuff feels like a cauldron boiling
Mary Korpov: When we are horny?
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes the 90 secs feels that way
Eos Amaterasu: Being horny is one of those cauldroning emotions :-)
Archmage Atlantis: Horny has nothing to do with this
Mary Korpov: You always seem to be troubled, Archmage
Archmage Atlantis: The earth is in danger
Mary Korpov: Really? How so?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, many of us feel that way - question is to how walk the path to relating to that
Archmage Atlantis: That is why we are here in this place
Eos Amaterasu: Since we are the ones endangering the earth, and ourselves, it seems relevant
Mary Korpov: Well, rather than waxing philosophically, what are you doing about it?
Pema Pera: hi everybody!
Eos Amaterasu: to attend to where our action comes from, where we are resting
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema
Mary Korpov: hi

Mary and Archmage get into an all-too-typical round of sparring with each other. As an experiment, I've grayed out some of those lines.

Archmage Atlantis: Talking to you Mary
Mary Korpov: That's a waste of time
Pema Pera: thanks, Eos!
Archmage Atlantis: Is it?
Mary Korpov: yes
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pila
Pila Mulligan: hi folks
Mary Korpov: As far as doing something about the earth goes, yacking about it here is pointless. Just preaching to the choir
Archmage Atlantis: Good point
Archmage Atlantis: still the choir has the power to sing to life
Eos Amaterasu: How to extend out, from just us, is a good question
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Mary Korpov: That's easy. Go talk to other people.
Archmage Atlantis: I am
Archmage Atlantis: I am talking to you
Mary Korpov: I mean people other than me
Mary Korpov: I already accept that we are fucking up the earth and am trying to do something about it
Archmage Atlantis: My goodness, such language
Archmage Atlantis: But true
Mary Korpov: Don't be a prude
Mary Korpov: What are YOU doing about it other than talking?

--BELL--

Archmage Atlantis: Tell me. What should I do?
Pema Pera: Hi Eden!
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eden
Mary Korpov: I asked what you are doing. Answer that first.
Archmage Atlantis: I am talking
Eden Haiku: Hi!
Mary Korpov: Do you drive a hybrid?
Eos Amaterasu: Just including the "trouble" in the 90secs is a start
Archmage Atlantis: I have no car
Mary Korpov: Good. Do you dry your clothes on the line?
Archmage Atlantis: No, because then I fall and use resources to come pick me up

Pema starts a dialog about the PaB gap with Calvino. Meanwhile Mary and Archmage keep at it, with Eos interjecting a futile PaB note occasionally

Pema Pera: Calvino, you've been here a few times before recently, I saw from the chat logs. Welcome to Play as Being! May I ask, have you tried the 9 seconds explorations yet?
Mary Korpov: I didn't really understand that.
Archmage Atlantis: Well fall in a yard full of mosquitoes, you willl understand
Calvino Rabeni: Good to meet you, Pema. I haven't read any material about what to do during the 90 secs timeout during this group.
Mary Korpov: Um, I wouldn't put the line on the ground. I'd put it up high enough so that you can hang your clothes on it...
Calvino Rabeni: So I just sit and empty out
Eos Amaterasu: Did you get a notecard, Calvino?
Pema Pera: the main idea, during either the 90 secs here or the 9 secs in RL whenever you feel like, is simple: drop what you have to see what you are
Archmage Atlantis: I assume, Mary, you mean just go and die
Calvino Rabeni: yes I get it
Pema Pera: would that give you some idea?
Mary Korpov: No, I mean hang your clothes outside instead of using a dryer
Pema Pera: it's very general, of course, the way it is phrased
Archmage Atlantis: You are are like all who wish to depend on others
Mary Korpov: Hanging out my laundry means I want to depend on others?
Archmage Atlantis: You give blame
Archmage Atlantis: You do not see that others have other circumstances
Mary Korpov: No, I asked what you are doing other than talking. No blame. A simple question. Talk is cheap. If we want to do something about the earth, it requires action.

Calvino gives the 9 secs a go

Pema Pera: If I may ask, Calvino, if you were to spend 9 seconds, roughly, right now, to drop what you have to see what you are, what would happen? Would you be game, and try it, and then tell us what happened?
Calvino Rabeni: parsing.
Mary Korpov: Of course we have different circumstances. I also think it is good that you don't have a car. I wish I could get along without a car.
Calvino Rabeni: OK done.
Pema Pera: Heya Paradise, good to see you in SL again for a change!
Pema Pera: Yes, Calvino?
Eos Amaterasu: HI Paradise
Eos Amaterasu listens
Paradise Tennant: hiya pema, eos , calvino arch , mary :)
Archmage Atlantis: My ex=partner says if I use my "Life-line" I take resources that could be better used for others
Mary Korpov: You mean suicide?
Mary Korpov: I suppose if humanity collectively committed suicide that would be best for the earth.
Mary Korpov: Although we do seem to be working hard on that one.
Archmage Atlantis: It would be a denial of our commitment
Mary Korpov: I don't have any commitment, but ridding the earth of the human pest might be a good thing for it
Calvino Rabeni: this isn't easy to do in 9 seconds. Perhaps it gets easier with practice. I notice my reactivity and impatience to what I experience as a stereotypical political conversation. I drop that, relax, feel more spacious. If I wanted to start something different, it feels more possible. I don't have any insight into "who I really am" or anything of that sort. That's my result for your suggested experiment.
Mary Korpov: We don't seem to do the earth much in the way of any favors
Pema Pera: That's great, Calvino!
Eos Amaterasu: Nice report, Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: ty
Eos Amaterasu: from "the field"
Pema Pera: the fact that in such a short time, 9 seconds, you managed to notice something, then drop it, then relax, is great!
Eos Amaterasu: There's a 90 secs coming up in 3 minutes or so
Pema Pera: and yes, definitely, practice will make this come to life more and more
Archmage Atlantis: We have been given large tools
Mary Korpov: I've tried this 90 second thing and it doesn't seem to do anything
Archmage Atlantis: We can manipulate our DNA
Pema Pera: Thanks, Eos, yes, let us all try to focus on dropping what we have in order to see what we are, during the next 90 secs break
Pema Pera: the idea, Calvino, is to explore reality in a kind of meditative/contemplative way without sticking to a particular method
Pema Pera: but rather to let a method develop, grow naturally, tuned in to where we are at, each of us
Pema Pera: does that make some sense?
Calvino Rabeni: :) the method of no method :)
Paradise Tennant: yes
Pema Pera: exactly :-)
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Pema
Pema Pera: so it's very pedestrian, simple
Eos Amaterasu: Hard to have no method; we insist on method!
Pema Pera: so let's do it and then share what we find
Pema Pera: :-)
Paradise Tennant: ok

--BELL--

Mary Korpov: Texas Tech is leading Oklahoma State 10 to 7
Paradise Tennant: :)
Pema Pera: does anyone like to share what they found?
Mary Korpov: I just did
Calvino Rabeni: mary, I have a nice warm cup of tea here, would you like some?
Mary Korpov: I don't know how that would work electronically
Mary Korpov: Also, I hate tea...
Paradise Tennant: :) I just came in from a run .. so worked with my breath .. found a nice non thinking place ..just an easy resting moment
Calvino Rabeni: I';ll take that as a No
Archmage Atlantis: My cat, a Bengal, 18 yo, insists on sitting on my lap since I came home from the hospital.
Paradise Tennant: :) she was worried I bet arch :)
Paradise Tennant: missed you
Mary Korpov: The mascot for Oklahoma State is disturbingly strange
Mary Korpov: What did you observe, Pema?

Pema describes being shaken to the core, and then experiencing that core

Pema Pera: Earlier this evening I had a very tough conversation with a very good friend, which shook me to the core. I spent the 90 seconds to try to feel out to what extent that "core of my being" was not what I was, and at first I found it difficult to discern the difference. I then saw more clearly that this core-self, as part of the self image, itself was a kind of projection/construction.
Mary Korpov: What was the conversation about?
Pema Pera: about how open two or more people can be with each other
Mary Korpov: how open can they be?

Pema takes up the challenge

Pema Pera: why do you ask that Mary?
Pema Pera: what is the point?
Archmage Atlantis: I see Mary's point
Mary Korpov: Well, I didn't entirely understand your comments, first. But also, I'm not sure what it means to talk about being "open" and I wasn't quite clear on what "two or more" meant
Calvino Rabeni: Umm, the "or more" part interests me.
Archmage Atlantis: There is danger in being open
Mary Korpov: There is much to be said for being closed
Pema Pera: I was trying to share a particular exploration, a particular experience, and you immediately jump on one seemingly random aspect and bite into that, Mary. I'm not sure why
Mary Korpov: I didn't bite into anything. I didn't understand yoru comments
Mary Korpov: They were not clear to me. Sorry if I'm an idiot, but I didn't get it.
Pema Pera: I was trying to express a sense of the difference between what normally feels as the core of myself and what I really am
Archmage Atlantis: Mary is intelligent, otherwise I would not debate
Pema Pera: and I'm sorry that I wasn't very clear
Paradise Tennant: hmm well when you focused on why your core self reacted Pema .. did it shed light on what or who that core self really is
Mary Korpov: How can what feels as the core of your self differ from what you are?
Pema Pera: it did to some extent, Paradise, in an unexpected way
Pema Pera: normally my thoughts feel different from what I seem to be myself, a distinction between what I have and what I are
Mary Korpov: I'm really very confused. How can one not know who he/she is?
Archmage Atlantis: I chose long ago not to wear a mask
Eos Amaterasu: Dropping what you have... having a core self is part of that having
Pema Pera: but in this case the "core self" felt neither like a thought, something I clearly have, nor something I deep down really am
Pema Pera: and while I tried to find the difference, suddenly the whole image came unglued, the image of a core self seen as an image
Archmage Atlantis: I am a gay man, in a straight world
Pema Pera: sorry, hard to summarize in just a few words
Mary Korpov: Pema, I don't really understand this very well. I am quite shallow, I guess, but I don't think I have a core self
Archmage Atlantis: Now I have a bi partner
Pema Pera: What do you think you are, Mary
Archmage Atlantis: Of course you do, Mary
Mary Korpov: I'm a human, and you?
Archmage Atlantis: We are all human
Archmage Atlantis: At least the same species of human
Pema Pera: I am human too, Mary, but that is a trait I have, I would not consider that to be my true nature
Mary Korpov: I'm a biological organism that changes in relation to its environment on a regular basis. There is no core.
Mary Korpov: I don't have a "true nature."
Pema Pera: that is one view, Mary
Mary Korpov: I know that, Pema
Pema Pera: have you tried to look for a "true nature"?
Pema Pera: or do you postulate that you don't have one?
Mary Korpov: There is nothing to look for, but yes I tried at one time
Pema Pera: one time? what did you find?
Mary Korpov: There's nothing there
Pema Pera: that was quick :-)
Mary Korpov: Many times when I was younger. What was there? nothing
Eos Amaterasu: Let's try again, in the upcoming 90 secs
Pema Pera: thanks, Eos!

--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: :) hmm no there is something there .. something that identifies with beauty, speed, classic design and 0 to 60 miles in 4 secs?
Mary Korpov: That's just fun, Paradies
Eos Amaterasu: 90 seconds is a long time :-)
Mary Korpov: That's it Paradise, my Corvette is the core of who I am
Pema Pera: This time I felt my sense of self layered upon a vast space, the way a movie is layered on the light of the projector. The vast space "had" the self image.
Mary Korpov: I felt that the picture on my TV is amazingly good.
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Pema Pera: and it felt pleasantly free to see that sense of self becoming more transparent

Mary challenges, and Pema challenges right back. Meanwhile Arch weaves in and out, and gets protective of Mary

Mary Korpov: Pema, do yo mind if I say something blunt?
Pema Pera: in contrast to other things you say? That would be interesting!
Pema Pera: please do
Archmage Atlantis: My Father was a sargeant in the d-day invasion, my mother was one of the first women to graduate from the UF university in education.....I have picked cotton and tobacco..
Paradise Tennant: listens
Archmage Atlantis: I understand RL
Mary Korpov: OK. I think you are so wrapped up in being "deep" that you completely miss the mundaneness of reality. And you miss the fact that you are entirely mundane and pointless. The picture on my TV is just as profound as your self of self layered on a vast space.
Archmage Atlantis: Finally
Pema Pera: and you seem to miss the whole way in which we are trying to gently explore the nature of reality together, Mary
Mary Korpov: How so?
Pema Pera: You seem to be tone deaf to what we are trying to do here
Mary Korpov: What?
Archmage Atlantis: ]
Archmage Atlantis: Mary, stay with us
Pema Pera: don't you see how you are bringing in a dark cloud so very often, when somebody tries to share something sensitive?
Archmage Atlantis: You have much to share
Mary Korpov: No, I think you are tone deaf. You don't get what I just said. Nothing is sensitive.
Mary Korpov: How do I bring a dark cloud?
Mary Korpov: Is honesty a dark cloud to you, Pema?
Pema Pera: I have seen many occasions, Mary, where somebody is trying to share something that they really care for, and you then cut into it, in a way that probably is not very pleasant for the person trying to share
Mary Korpov: I think I touched a nerve because you don't want to think of your self and your life as mundane. But reality is mundane. I am completely in touch with what you are doing. Exploring reality.
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, reality is mundane
Eos Amaterasu: Mary, part of what we are doing is being open to others
Mary Korpov: Pema, I think it is YOU who doesn't get it
Pema Pera: we are not a debating club, Mary
Eos Amaterasu: not just presenting a hard edge, to to others and to ourselves
Mary Korpov: Ah, but only open when one is a member of the club
Eos Amaterasu: cliché
Pema Pera: if you are looking for a way to hack into others, perhaps this is not the best place to do so
Mary Korpov: I'm not debating anything. I'm expressing my experience.
Archmage Atlantis: Yes you are Mary
Mary Korpov: But I didn't hack into you Pema. I made a point about reality. You didn't get it.
Archmage Atlantis: I hear that
Mary Korpov: Thanks, Archmage. I appreciate that.
Paradise Tennant: maybe we could take an early 90 seconds and just breath for a while
Pema Pera: I was speaking in general, Mary, over many sessions I have seen you in now.
Mary Korpov: We have been at very few sessions together, Pema.
Eos Amaterasu: To be open to others you have to be open, vulenerable, to yourself,
Pema Pera: those and ones which I read
Eos Amaterasu: if you're invulnerable you can't communicate
Eos Amaterasu: you just defend yourself
Mary Korpov: That's kind of how it looks to me, Eos.
Eos Amaterasu: your invulnerability is something you have, Mary
Eos Amaterasu: it's not what you are
Mary Korpov: Rather than openness, I see offense at being challenged to think in a different way

Storm arrives to join the .... little storm

Pema Pera: hi Storm!
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Storm
Storm Nordwind: Hello everyone
Mary Korpov: I'm not invulnerable
Paradise Tennant: hiya storm gtsy :)
Eos Amaterasu: So share that sometimes
Archmage Atlantis: Mary, what might I share that would provide evidence of being open?
Mary Korpov: There is no "me" in reality.
Mary Korpov: There is no core.
Eos Amaterasu: that is a flat statement, not a question
Eos Amaterasu: is there a "me" in reality?
Eos Amaterasu: is there a core?
Mary Korpov: I'm talking about myself, Eos. I don't need to phrase that as a question.
Paradise Tennant: maybe it would be more accurate to say .. there is no me I am aware of ..there is no core I am aware of ....
Mary Korpov: Maybe, Paradise. But I've looked and I don't find anything.
Paradise Tennant: yes
Eos Amaterasu: What we're trying to do here is to share the _experience_ of those things
Mary Korpov: That's what I've been doing.
Paradise Tennant: but there are kinds of ways of looking some help you see more than others
Eos Amaterasu: For example, how you hold on to a strong thought or emotion - especially during the 90 secs
Eos Amaterasu: strong belief
Eos Amaterasu: or strong lack of belief
Mary Korpov: Well, i must admit that I try to let go of strong throughts or beliefs.
Mary Korpov: I try to let go of strong anything.
Archmage Atlantis: there is the gate
Archmage Atlantis: Strong feelings are
Eos Amaterasu: that is the gate
Eos Amaterasu: 90 secs coming up: let go!

--BELL--

... a magical stream of reports...

Archmage Atlantis: There is nothing wrong with that
Eos Amaterasu: Reports?
Eos Amaterasu: My sense of irritation was mocked by the sounds of birds, so real, so unreal
Archmage Atlantis: 58 years vs 90 seconds? - yikes
Pema Pera: I felt a ring of gripping emotions, and yet with an empty center
Calvino Rabeni: I experienced a kind of flow state through several emotional layers
Paradise Tennant: :) did what I always do .. followed my breath but this time it felt heavy .. like pain is in the room ... not within me ..just near me ..
Pema Pera: nice contrast, Arch!
Pema Pera: time is so mysterious . . . .
Eos Amaterasu: Not able to hold on, to anything, really - is not the same as holding on to "nothing"

... Mary shares a moment...

Mary Korpov: i'm not sure you want to hear my experience, but here goes. My son came home from a movie and I felt joy.
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Pema Pera: thank you, Mary!
Mary Korpov: for what
Pema Pera: for sharing with us what you felt
Mary Korpov: I've been doing that all evening
Paradise Tennant: :) for sharing joy
Mary Korpov: you didn't thank me before
Pema Pera: Mary, you asked to be blunt, may I be blunt too?
Mary Korpov: Go for it
Pema Pera: Mary, I have seen many occasions where someone started talking about X, and rather than joining the conversation about X, you just blurted out "I hate X". That is an example of how we don't normally hold our conversations here, that is not our style.
Pema Pera: what you just said is much more our style, sharing
Mary Korpov: I stand corrected. Mea culpa
Pema Pera: thank you again, Mary
Mary Korpov: But I will say this. If I say I hate X, then I am sharing..
Pema Pera: yes, but there are different ways of doing so
Pema Pera: blurting out versus tuning in
Mary Korpov: That is what I feel. So I get the feeling that if I don't feel things in the right way, then I don't have valid feelings
Pema Pera: no, that is different
Mary Korpov: what is?
Pema Pera: it is not what you feel, it is how you communicate what you feel, how you dance with it in the group
Mary Korpov: I am what I am--it's a core being thing
Pema Pera: saying that you hate X in general is no problem
Pema Pera: but if somebody just came into the room with a small bird cupped in his hands, and at THAT moment you woudl say "I hate little birds" that would not be the right timing
Mary Korpov: why not?
Pema Pera: anybody who can help me here?
Mary Korpov: You seem to be doing quite well
Eos Amaterasu: cause little birds are sensitive
Eos Amaterasu: the bird might die
Mary Korpov: little birds don't understand English
Eos Amaterasu: we are speaking metaphorically
Mary Korpov: I hate little birds
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps it would be more worthy of you to empathize rather than to simply state a feeling
Eos Amaterasu: it's a matter of sharing chinks in your armor, not sharing your armor
Archmage Atlantis: if we are strong in ourselves, we will have no need to
Archmage Atlantis: Um
Paradise Tennant: exploration works best with balance .. if you focus only on a the negative the balance gets out of wack .. the exploration . not so fruitful ..
Archmage Atlantis: remark on others
Mary Korpov: Well, I'm pretty unworthy and not very good at empathy
Paradise Tennant: hmm no do not agree
Archmage Atlantis: when they do not meet our personal standards
Mary Korpov: don't agree with what? I missed that.
Paradise Tennant: that you are unworthy and not very good at empathy
Paradise Tennant: do not agree with that
Mary Korpov: I think that is the truth
Paradise Tennant: well as you are aware of it
Paradise Tennant: but from where I sit .I see it differently
Mary Korpov: OK
Mary Korpov: But I'm not terribly interested in being analyzed
Paradise Tennant: that is the joy of sharing perspective .. it give you a periferal vision
Paradise Tennant: not analysis .
Paradise Tennant: just a different perspective
Storm Nordwind: You are more interested, Mary, in telling others of your analyses?
Mary Korpov: not really
Eos Amaterasu will depart, good night
Archmage Atlantis: Nor good spelling or typing *smile*
Storm Nordwind: Bye Eos!
Paradise Tennant: nite nite eos
Eos Amaterasu: Ciao everybody

--BELL--

Pema Pera: Mary, if I may try again: if your son came in with a little bird cupped in his hands, beaming with joy about the beauty and fragility of the little bird, walking up to you, to show you the little bird, would you then really say "I hate little birds?" Would you really do that to your son?
Mary Korpov: I was joking, Pema. Not much on humor here.
Pema Pera heaves a sigh of relief :)
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: great we all like little birds :)
Mary Korpov: Did you really think I was serious?
Mary Korpov: I really don't much care about little birds one way or the other. But what I like or dislike is irrelevant.
Pema Pera: now then the question is, why did you throw in such, if I may, poisonous remarks -- did you consider those humorous?
Pema Pera: (you see, today I'm as blunt as you are)
Mary Korpov: I just said that it was humor. I don't see humor as poison--perhaps you do.
Archmage Atlantis: I think to challenge is appropriate
Mary Korpov: I don't think we are having a bluntness competition, but if you want to , I suspect you will lose.
Pema Pera: it depends. If somebody shares X and really cares for it, to say "I hate X" can come across as poisonous
Mary Korpov: Or honest.
Archmage Atlantis: It must be followed by listening
Storm Nordwind: The whole point of satire is to be humorous and poisonous at the same time. There's a long precedent.
Mary Korpov: No kidding
Pema Pera: yes, so we are not quibbling about definitions, but about sensitivity about the context of a conversation, and the atmosphere
Mary Korpov: Ok, then here's how I feel. I'm irritated, because, Pema, you blew off my comments that were, in fact, my experiences as trivial and somehow not in line with your definition of what are acceptable experiences fo discussion in PaB.
Archmage Atlantis: May I respond to that?
Pema Pera: when did I do that, Mary?
Mary Korpov: Go for it Archmage
Mary Korpov: You did it when you took the position that my comments were in appropriate.
Archmage Atlantis: I have never felt that anything I said here was disallowed
Mary Korpov: I have
Archmage Atlantis: There may have been different viewpoints
Archmage Atlantis: But they did not stop me from sharing mine
Pema Pera: Mary, it started with you saying I completely missed mundaneness, after which I said that you seemed to miss the way we interact. You asked me to say more, and I talked about the way you often did not show senstitivity for others.
Archmage Atlantis: I have never been barred from the gate
Pema Pera: you may call that "humor"
Pema Pera: but that is not our style
Archmage Atlantis: If any are no longer allowed to express their thoughts, I doubt I shall come back
Mary Korpov: No, it started when I reported my experience and you ignored it as though it was trivial.
Mary Korpov: 
[19:31] Mary Korpov: TExas TEch is leading Oklahoma State 10 to 7
[19:31] Paradise Tennant: :) 
[19:32] Pema Pera: does anyone like to share what they found? 
[19:32] Mary Korpov: I just did
Mary Korpov: You didn't get the point, just blew it off.
Pema Pera: Mary, do you really think that I should say "thank you" for anything you say -- and that if I don't respond, that means that "I ignore it"????
Pema Pera: I'm flabbergasted
Mary Korpov: No, I don't care if you thank me or not. But I made a statement of my experience; it was ignored, rather than engaged.
Mary Korpov: And I think you ignored it because you think it is trivial.
Mary Korpov: Am I right?
doug Sosa: may i join or private?
Pema Pera: I was not sure whether that was "humor"
Pema Pera: and since I was not sure, I did not know how to react to it
Archmage Atlantis: Please doug, help!!!
Mary Korpov: It wasn't. And it was hurtful to have something that I thought was profound be ignored
Paradise Tennant: hiya doug
Pema Pera: note that I do not react to everything anybody says, Mary
Mary Korpov: Why should you?
Pema Pera: only if I feel I have something to say in response
Pema Pera: I'm sorry if I hurt you, Mary
Pema Pera: that was not my intention
Storm Nordwind: I wasn't here at the time Mary. I'd be interested to hear what the point was you were making that was missed. I am interested in profundities.
Mary Korpov: When you trivialize the experiences of others, no matter how trivial they may seem, it is hurtful.
Mary Korpov: I'm done for tonight.
Mary Korpov: Good night
Pema Pera: but let me ask you now then, Mary: we wanted to look for
Pema Pera: okay
Pema Pera: good night, Mary

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: OK, that was fascinating. I mean boring. No I mean fascinating.
Pema Pera: hahaha
Paradise Tennant: :)
Storm Nordwind smiles
Pema Pera: perhaps both
Calvino Rabeni: You're magnetic, Pema, a lightning rod
Storm Nordwind: But without the spikes
doug Sosa: I always can fall back on being an anthropologist. "so boring. intresting. wonder why?" so then it is not boring but profound.
Archmage Atlantis: We are still fighting the fight between Athens and Sparta.
Pema Pera: well, the nice thing of looking for the difference between having and being is that you can do it *everywhere*
Pema Pera: yes, doug
Pema Pera: and thank you, Calvino :)
Storm Nordwind: Or between Atlantis and Mu, Arch!
Archmage Atlantis: Yes
Pema Pera: I must say, I really like the way that Mary is consistent
doug Sosa: Mu? (he asks quietly).
Pema Pera: in that way we can make progress
Pema Pera: or at least get closer to the point of disagreement
Storm Nordwind: Another ancient civilization, doug
Archmage Atlantis: She continues to engage, that is power
doug Sosa: not in wiki
Pema Pera: well, Play as Being is not about power
Paradise Tennant: TExas TEch is leading Oklahoma State 10 to 7 - ok lets look for the profound .. really everything has some aspect of the profound .. she is right :)
Paradise Tennant: :)
doug Sosa: everything but football.
Calvino Rabeni: As a newcomer, may I ask, how much of this group is about therapy for mary?
Pema Pera: but hard to see how that sheds light on the personal exploration of having versus being
Paradise Tennant: lol
Storm Nordwind: and consistency may be equinimity or it may be stagnation
Paradise Tennant: unless you are footballer lol
Pema Pera: this group is not about therapy, Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: I meant an analogy
Archmage Atlantis: very, very little Cal
Pema Pera: but when somebody consistently speaks up in ways that doesn't fit with our style
Pema Pera: we do like to confront that person
Pema Pera: otherwise we will lose our style completely
Pema Pera: the alternative would be to not allow those who don't resonate with our exploration
Pema Pera: does that make sense? What would you do?
Calvino Rabeni: well since I'm new, "our style" is still a concept with a highlight on it.
Storm Nordwind: The point is Calvino... we are not precious about the style for its own sake. It is just that is "enabling", whereas some other styles can be "disabling"
Calvino Rabeni: yes I read the web site.
Calvino Rabeni: "My style is your style"
Storm Nordwind: I do not want to lose focus on why we are here, at these sessions, and doing this practice. Some things help that. Others get in the way.
Paradise Tennant: everything is practise
Pema Pera: our style, Calvino, can perhaps be explained by an example. If someone says something that is different from what I think, I don't say here "I disagree!" but first I ask the other to clarify, in case perhaps that person uses the same words in somewhat different ways than I assumed
Paradise Tennant: mary teaches us patience :)
Pema Pera: :)
Storm Nordwind smiles and nods to Paradise
Calvino Rabeni: Groups must have Mary's.
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Storm Nordwind: Like Atisha had his cook, perhaps
Paradise Tennant: lol
Calvino Rabeni: But Pema, do you draw a distinction between responding to your insigt of a person's intent, vs. parsing their words?
Pema Pera: Calvino, you came in in a situation that has been going on for many weeks, in which Mary at many occasions was hacking into a conversation in a way that many of us found somewhat painful, or at least disruptive to the way we are trying to share our experiences
Pema Pera: we rarely confront people that way
Calvino Rabeni: i c
Archmage Atlantis: I come out of the day when my people were deviants, and my mother would not let me go in the "colored" bathroom, and her biggest worry was I would marry a Catholic
Pema Pera: but since she started, asking to be allowed to be blunt, and then telling me that I missed the point completely of a cricle of friends that I had started, and where she had come as a visitor, I saw no reason to not be blunt in turn
Pema Pera: in fact, I was blunt as a gesture of respect to her
Pema Pera: and I do respect her directness
Pema Pera: I just wonder whether me respects the fact that I was playing Mary today :-)
Calvino Rabeni: well she is consistent and level
Pema Pera: I was trying to be a mirror
Pema Pera: *she, not me
Pema Pera: (whether she respects)
Calvino Rabeni: consistency is good, for some kinds of experiments

--BELL--

Pema Pera: yes, I agree, Calvino
Archmage Atlantis: Agree Pema, that was respect
Pema Pera: thank you, Arch
Pema Pera: but perhaps Mary did not like meeting a Mary . . . or perhaps I did not do a good enough job . . . ?
Storm Nordwind: Consistency is good in Buddhas... and in lab rats! >;^>
Pema Pera: *what* she said about mundaneness was great, I completely agreed, the only discussion was about *how* she said things
Pema Pera: how we share here
Calvino Rabeni: yes, you mad a decision about which of those to attend to
Pema Pera: yes, given the history of the last few weeks
Paradise Tennant: texted communication is almost flat .. so much is lost ..no body language inflection .. it is a challenging way to communicate
Archmage Atlantis: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: and is it in your mind, that she could take it as missing the point?
Paradise Tennant: very easy to mis read ..mis understand
Archmage Atlantis: Still, it is more compact
Storm Nordwind: Yes Paradise. On the other hand, it would be nice if I could attend a session where Mary was which was not, somehow, all about Mary
Pema Pera: yes, Calvino, she could take it in many ways, and it may take time to come to a common understanding, agreement or disagreement
Calvino Rabeni: i can see value in doing the "mary thing" but would be frustrated if it happened too often
Pema Pera: exactly, Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: so do you manage it?
Pema Pera: and that was exactly the reason to grab the cow by the horns today, so to speak
Pema Pera: to confront her with her behavior
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Calvino Rabeni: but will it work... it may not.
Pema Pera: we'll see
Pema Pera: one step at a time
Archmage Atlantis: She is intelligent
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Archmage Atlantis: she is aware
Pema Pera: the last resort is banning somebody
Archmage Atlantis: she got it
Archmage Atlantis: she will be back
Pema Pera: we'd rather not do that
Calvino Rabeni: well, she is some kind of troll, but a very nice one, at that :)
Pema Pera: but we also don't want every session that Mary attends be disrupting our normal flow of conversation, as Storm said
Archmage Atlantis: Agree
Pema Pera: everything with measure, Calvino :-)
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Paradise Tennant: sigh ... sorry getting late here .. I must excuse myself .. :)) thank you all :) I wish everyone a very good night .. including oklahoma state :)
Archmage Atlantis: I worry about that about my own self
Pema Pera: anyway, I hope you got some sense, amidst all this, of what we normally try to do, Calvino?
Pema Pera: bye Paradise!
Pema Pera: the no-method method?
Calvino Rabeni: More, A.A?
Pema Pera: AA?
Calvino Rabeni: P.P. :Yes
Archmage Atlantis: Nite Para
Calvino Rabeni: Arch
Storm Nordwind: AA= Archmage Atlantis
Pema Pera: ah, sorry :)
Pema Pera: Calvino, it would be great if you could try the 9-sec explorations in RL, whenver you feel like. I'd love to hear how that will change, over a few days, say, when you do it a few more times
Archmage Atlantis: Yikes, only the major players are still here.....well and cal
Pema Pera: I always find it fascinating to hear how each individual has different ways of working with it
Pema Pera: Cal seems to become a major player rapidly already :-)
Calvino Rabeni: P. You're very inviting, I like that
Archmage Atlantis: And Eden
Storm Nordwind wonders: the major players? Pema = lotus, and the lotus in the center? :)
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I have read the bios on the websites
Pema Pera shudders at the thought of being in the center of anything
Archmage Atlantis: I know who is running things
Archmage Atlantis: I worked in business
Pema Pera: you know more than I do then, Arch :)
Archmage Atlantis: It was my job
Storm Nordwind: Being is running things. And very well it seems
Pema Pera: :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Pema Pera grins
Archmage Atlantis: btw, you are doing a wonderful job
Pema Pera looks around
Calvino Rabeni: So Pema, are there opportunities to hear you hold forth on phenomenology?
Archmage Atlantis: just hope you can keep your funding
Pema Pera: Arch, I think we all do a good job
Pema Pera: I did start Play as Being one and a half year ago
Storm Nordwind: A group effort Arch. We're all included in that
Pema Pera: but recently we started a structure with a working group of six members
Pema Pera: nobody is at the center
Pema Pera: and even the six members are only advisors/coordinators
Archmage Atlantis: Someone is always at the center
Pema Pera: any decision is made in the whole group, not by the working group
Pema Pera: not necessarily, Arch; we rotate the chair position of the working group

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Is Steve T in that group?
Pema Pera: Calvino, I'd be happy to talk about phenomenology any time
Archmage Atlantis: So, there are different ppl at the center as time goes by......that sounds like a good operating practice.....if the strongest are always at the center or nearby
Pema Pera: Steven Tainer, Stim Morane here in SL, is part of the Play as Being group, but not right now part of the working group. Storm and Eos and I are part of the WG
Storm Nordwind notes that Waldorf schools are not directed by a principal or head teacher, but rather by a number of groups like a college of teachers and a board of governors.
Pema Pera: interesting, Storm!
Pema Pera: btw, it is past midnight here
Pema Pera: I think I'll go get some sleep
Pema Pera: Thank you all for a fascinating evening!
Pema Pera: and nice meeting you, Calvino!
Calvino Rabeni: ty 2
Storm Nordwind: Good idea. I think I will retire to my cozy home in the Rocky Mountain snows
Archmage Atlantis: Actually, it is late here also
Calvino Rabeni: glad to
Archmage Atlantis: Nite all
Pema Pera: nite!

Calvino Rabeni: storm, where physically?
Storm Nordwind: Denver
Calvino Rabeni: ok. I used to live Boulder
Storm Nordwind: Ah yes. A stone's throw away
Calvino Rabeni: you have technology job?
Storm Nordwind: I have recently immigrated from the UK
Calvino Rabeni: I thought as much.
Storm Nordwind: There I was an educator in an engineering environment
Storm Nordwind: having been an engineer myself for decades
Storm Nordwind: At the moment I am a newlywed and therefore simply a kept man
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: At this time, I'm a bachelor and therefore a free man.
Storm Nordwind: Ah... I'm not free, I'm very expensive! :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'm high maintenance. No woman can afford me.
Storm Nordwind: The cars, the drink or the computers? ;)
Calvino Rabeni: Intangibles, as do many potential partners.
Storm Nordwind nods
Calvino Rabeni: congrats, though.
Storm Nordwind smiles. Thank you
Calvino Rabeni: Does Kira give you $?
Storm Nordwind: No
Calvino Rabeni: Labour of love, then, to build this place?
Storm Nordwind: Sure. I believe in the project and the people
Calvino Rabeni: is sweet
Calvino Rabeni: I like them so far, with my limited encounters
Storm Nordwind: Consider it a Buddhist gesture. A possibility to reduce suffering.
Calvino Rabeni: I'm for that.
Calvino Rabeni: My current step is, take off the secondary layer of suffering.
Storm Nordwind: So where are you if you're not in Boulder anymore?
Calvino Rabeni: Between Seattle and southern Oregon.
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: I don't know that area well, except knowing that Maxine is from Seattle
Calvino Rabeni: I am getting used to these conversations with interleaved topics.
Calvino Rabeni: DK maxine. But I like F 2 F with those I meet online.
Storm Nordwind: Yes. It's a necessary part of group chats
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: That is how I met my wife!
Calvino Rabeni: !
Storm Nordwind: nearly three years ago, in an SL clothes shop
Calvino Rabeni: So is it, proper behavior in SL to say, oh I heard you're from this town, what about meeting?
Storm Nordwind: haha!
Calvino Rabeni: Not big shopper in SL or RL
Storm Nordwind: er... I don't know!
Storm Nordwind: And I have no love of shopping either

--BELL--

Storm Nordwind: But I think your approach may be too direct
Calvino Rabeni: Well no doubt there's a concierge service
Storm Nordwind: Would you excuse me for this evening? :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening, TTYL.
Storm Nordwind waves