2009.11.30 19:00 - Precognitive experience

Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database.

 

Fox Monacular: hi Doug

Fox Monacular: hi calvino

Fox Monacular: welcome to the guardians

Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Fox. TY

Fox Monacular: how are you doing tonight?

doug Sosa: i haven't asked that of myself and will let it float by. i think fine but lots going on.

Calvino Rabeni: My head is spinning - no doubt the timeout will help

doug Sosa: I've been learning to try the 9 sec just at the worst moments. really helps.

Fox Monacular: oh, I hope everything is going to work out... sounds intense for both of you

Calvino Rabeni: :) It would be fun to have an animation to indicate that subjectivity

Fox Monacular: this november is tough on me too...

Calvino Rabeni: Self inflicted :)

Fox Monacular: :)

doug Sosa: i wonder, for all those who say its all in our mind, is life self-inflicted?

Fox Monacular: :), no life is inflicted by our parets!

Fox Monacular: *parents

doug Sosa: parrots. :)

Fox Monacular: :)

doug Sosa: our parents really are mostly fictive, no?

Calvino Rabeni: Mine certainly were :)

Fox Monacular: perhaps, but they seem very real to me!

Calvino Rabeni: I'm happy to hold the distinction lightly - fictive-ness

--BELL--

doug Sosa: mind stuff is real - but often has an actual referent that may be quite different.

Calvino Rabeni: SL has become a more durable illusion.

Calvino Rabeni: But sometimes I think, it is fine to say, we just don't know what the referent actually is.

Calvino Rabeni: Especially if we want to interact with "real" that doesn't have solid form.

Fox Monacular: I find SL sometimes very disorienting... I mean even in RL things are mostly fictive...

Calvino Rabeni: Indeed.

Calvino Rabeni: But that takes a certain position I 'm not entirely comfortable with

doug Sosa: yes, the referent is only engageable through co-participation, which means our mental stuff is always mixed in. nothing to do about it, except putting different experiences tog ether.

Calvino Rabeni: that seems reasonable to me

Calvino Rabeni: OK, in a recent session, someone seemed to think that "judgments" are something only valid to the person having them.

Calvino Rabeni: Like - it's true for me, but we can't say any more than that.

Fox Monacular: judgements depend on a shared understanding too

Fox Monacular: right

Fox Monacular: but I'm not sure if this is true

Calvino Rabeni: It seems like that to me

Calvino Rabeni: I think reasonable to assume "partly shared". That's the crux

Calvino Rabeni: Philosophy likes to take things to extremes

doug Sosa: other people are referents, and we know thm, sort of, again mixed up with our own stuff. But there is reality to it, like the kicked stone or the boilded away water in the rice.

Fox Monacular: rigth, but I believe there is a degree of understanding of 'unreal

Calvino Rabeni: which seems not really warranted

Fox Monacular: and elusice matters

doug Sosa: navigating without adequate navigation, that is what life is about.

Fox Monacular: yes, this is my problem with a lot of philosophy too...

Calvino Rabeni: they try to to logic on all these ideas of dubious grounding

Calvino Rabeni: and exclude the middle

Fox Monacular: well, various traditions serve as navigation manuals

doug Sosa: the grounding isn't so dubious. inclonclusive but not dubious.

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I follow them, but mainly only as a kind of dialectic in relation to the others

doug Sosa: The 9 sec tries to get closer.

Fox Monacular: a shared practice can help build common vocabularies

Calvino Rabeni: is meaning "constructed" ?

Calvino Rabeni: That is an example of an idea taken to extremes

Fox Monacular: some people think so:)

Fox Monacular: Hi Steve!

stevenaia Michinaga: hello

doug Sosa: partly, but also interactive with somehting that has an effect on the "construction".

Fox Monacular: I think meaning is experienced

doug Sosa: 'hi steve.

stevenaia Michinaga: been a while, doug

Fox Monacular: have you read Eugene Gendlin?

doug Sosa: every time i come back i har that. gotta admit to it.

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, he has progressed since the 70's

Calvino Rabeni: I like Gendlin

Fox Monacular: yes, me too

doug Sosa: who?

Fox Monacular: he has a book "experiencing and the creation of meaning"

Calvino Rabeni: But I kind of "sense" his limits. :)

Fox Monacular: http://books.google.ca/books?id=D09o...age&q=&f=false

Calvino Rabeni: I will find a link for you - just the right one.

Fox Monacular: here's a google book link, you can peek in

Calvino Rabeni: His web site is fabulous

stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Gendlin

Calvino Rabeni: http://www.focusing.org/tbp.html

doug Sosa: thanks!

Calvino Rabeni: THen browse up from there, but that is the crux I think for what we are talking about

Fox Monacular: I like him a lot, it resonates well with the work on embodied cognition

Calvino Rabeni: It does.

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: They have a new initiative called "focusing partners"

Fox Monacular: and intuitively I feel it's right to say that meaning is felt' or experiuenced before it can be articulated

Fox Monacular: oups, sorry

doug Sosa: thinking and the body are as intertwined as perception and object.

Fox Monacular: right, he focuces on the process more than the content

Calvino Rabeni: It kind of overlaps with PAB in some ways

Fox Monacular: Hi Bene!

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Bene

Benedizione Vita: hello all

doug Sosa: :)

Benedizione Vita: whats shakin?

Benedizione Vita: I feel better already :)

Calvino Rabeni: we were talking about - hmm, what would you call it?

Fox Monacular: creation of meaning by experiencing it

Calvino Rabeni: perhaps embodied cognition or intelligence

stevenaia Michinaga: Eugene_Gendlin

Benedizione Vita: oh yes, that is one of my favorite toics

Fox Monacular: pre-cognitive basis of the experience of meaning

Calvino Rabeni: http://www.focusing.org/tbp.html

Calvino Rabeni: (repeated for Bene)

Fox Monacular: as opposed to purely cerebral construction from mental representations

Calvino Rabeni: Sure, but it is a kind of arbitrary distinctin

doug Sosa: what i like about the 9 sec is that we are asked to be observers and report. that gets us beyond mouthing concepts.

Benedizione Vita: except maybe as an infant would

doug Sosa: like, what happens when in a crisis we try the 9 sec? For me there is an immediate greater awareness of space, and the most intense objects step back a bit.

Calvino Rabeni: Space is a very big deal, metaphorically, in understanding these experiences

Fox Monacular: yes, but to report, we have to use some meta-language that others will understand!:)

Calvino Rabeni: What do you make of that?

doug Sosa: i am in an intense converation wiht two othrs. try the 9 sec. sunnenly it is not me and two of them, it is three of us.

Calvino Rabeni: Nice

doug Sosa: Note, no meta language.

Fox Monacular: this is great

doug Sosa: Tomorrow i have to speak to 45 department and institute directors. can i try the 9 sec?

doug Sosa: I hope i remember.

Fox Monacular: ouch

Calvino Rabeni: as in, show it to them?

Benedizione Vita: "do or do not" ;^)

Benedizione Vita: to quote the sage

doug Sosa: not show, do, for myself. showing thjem comes later.

Calvino Rabeni: there is no try

Fox Monacular: you mean 9 sec before you talk to them? or during:)

Calvino Rabeni: you have doubts?

doug Sosa: "there is no try" Is that not ideology? i think i experience trying all the time.

Benedizione Vita: it's way beyond ideology

Calvino Rabeni: No, that was in reference to a Yoda quite

Benedizione Vita: it's Star Wars

Calvino Rabeni: quite

stevenaia Michinaga: lol

Calvino Rabeni: quote

doug Sosa: my ignorance.

Calvino Rabeni: (promises to learn to type)

doug Sosa: i'll try the 9 sec when it gets intense. not needed at the beginning.. well, maybe then too :)

Calvino Rabeni: Can you do it while doing other things?

Calvino Rabeni: :) They will never notice :)

stevenaia Michinaga: if you do it before, perhaps theings won;t get :"intense"

doug Sosa: that is when we really learn from the 9. Don't stop doing what you are doing, just add in the 9 sec and seewhat happens to get experienced.

Fox Monacular: I guess, while they're talking, you can do it, but during your own speech it can get tricky!

doug Sosa: I want the intensity, just not to be dominated by it.

doug Sosa: So hey, during my own speech, yes. i'll try.

Calvino Rabeni: Actually it might be better to do it while you are speaking, rather than while they are.

Fox Monacular: :) drop what you say to say who you are :)

doug Sosa: friends, at the bell I've gotta go (rehearse..:) actually just look at some notes.

Calvino Rabeni: Because while they are speaking, they are more distracted.

Calvino Rabeni: Best of luck!

Calvino Rabeni: And skill

Fox Monacular: I hope it goes well tomorrow!

Benedizione Vita: good luck doug

Benedizione Vita: good to see you as always

Benedizione Vita: may the force be with you

Fox Monacular: have a good solid night of sleep :)

stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like an intersting crowd

stevenaia Michinaga: will it be webcasted :)

--BELL--

doug Sosa: no web cast. too nformal, a conversation. my friend's guest just stepped in, an attractive chinese, studying computatinal physics.

doug Sosa: ok, here I go. bye. thanks.

stevenaia Michinaga: bye

Benedizione Vita: can you make an introduction for me first, doug?

Benedizione Vita: bye

stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm , people are dropping out all over here

Benedizione Vita: yes, there they go

Calvino Rabeni: Fox said nothing , maybe a crash?

Benedizione Vita: or slipped away sly like a fox

Calvino Rabeni: WB fox

Fox Monacular: sorry about that, I've no idea what happened

stevenaia Michinaga: how did you become familiar with Eugene Gendlin

stevenaia Michinaga: CAl

Fox Monacular: a mentor recommended it to me

Calvino Rabeni: I did a lot of stuff in the seventies - human potential movement in the USA

stevenaia Michinaga: looks interesting

Calvino Rabeni: BUt it meshed with my interests

Fox Monacular: what is this movement? i am not familiar with it

Calvino Rabeni: there was a broad interest toward various forms of psychology and self-study based on an "experiential" paradigm.

Calvino Rabeni: It happened after the drug experimentation of the sixties

Calvino Rabeni: mostly in USA, but also in other places.

Calvino Rabeni: It influenced attitudes - after that it diverged in various ways.

Fox Monacular: interesting

Calvino Rabeni: It is a little like understanding the history of ideas

Calvino Rabeni: similar to comparative religion - I mean, as a form of cultural studies

Fox Monacular: there's less sruff like that around now I think... my school years are all about neuroscience and evolutionary psych :(

Calvino Rabeni: that brackets the topics

Fox Monacular: right

Calvino Rabeni: It was parallel / overlapped with the assimilation of eastern religious ideas - buddhism, etc - in the "west"

Fox Monacular: psychology is becoming more and more biological, but interdisciplinary stuff is getting more interesting I find

Fox Monacular: that must have been really exciting!

Calvino Rabeni: They assimilated it in a way that translated it into western metaphysics

Calvino Rabeni: You can see its influence, of course, in people like Pema and Stim.

Calvino Rabeni: And many of the members of this group

Calvino Rabeni: It is what made the idea of western buddnism, for example, acceptable.

Calvino Rabeni: I remember the changes of that time.

Calvino Rabeni: Philosophically there was a move towards tolerating much more diversity

Calvino Rabeni: of worldview, I mean, not of class / race/ social values.

Calvino Rabeni: So now you can be a buddhist AND a scientist :)

Fox Monacular: yes:) it works out

Fox Monacular: although since dawkins many people doubt it again!

--BELL--

Benedizione Vita: onigokko

Fox Monacular: onigokko

Fox Monacular: stop

Fox Monacular: onigokko

Benedizione Vita: why didn't I stop?

Fox Monacular: because you didn't really want to

Fox Monacular: :)

Fox Monacular: i lost my skirt

Benedizione Vita: it happens every time...

Calvino Rabeni: "When in danger, or in doubt - run in circles, scream,and shout!"

Fox Monacular: lol!

Benedizione Vita: stop

Fox Monacular: hehe

Benedizione Vita: I think I am broken

Fox Monacular: stop

Calvino Rabeni: You can stop yourself using the menu

stevenaia Michinaga: menu WORLD: STOP ALL ANIMATIONS

Calvino Rabeni: "stop animating avitar"

stevenaia Michinaga: sure, now you look all cool drinking tea

Benedizione Vita: now it looks like I am crouched to pounce

Benedizione Vita: okay, now we are okay

Fox Monacular: Calvino, you know, we're talking about accepting more diversity, and I think it's true, but it seems that at the same time science is becoming more dogmatic than ever

Fox Monacular: at least in my school

Calvino Rabeni: What school?

Fox Monacular: university of montreal

Calvino Rabeni: Right

Fox Monacular: and before that in mcgill

stevenaia Michinaga: seems like a protection mechanism

Calvino Rabeni: YEs

Fox Monacular: even more so in mcgill

Calvino Rabeni: and it may be warranted

stevenaia Michinaga: aww, my wife went to McGill

Fox Monacular: :)

Benedizione Vita: oh, you are at mcgill, fox?

Fox Monacular: i did a BA there

Calvino Rabeni: but I still see it as a compensation to other factors

Benedizione Vita: did we meet in RL?

Fox Monacular: hated all my psych courses, but loved art history and religion

Fox Monacular: did we, Bene? :)

Fox Monacular: what do you mean, Cal?

Calvino Rabeni: What was psych like then?

Calvino Rabeni: They are reacting to new age and fundamentalism perhaps

Fox Monacular: dogmatic, pharmacological...

Fox Monacular: freud was only mentioned to laugh at

Benedizione Vita: if we did, it would have been in princeton

Fox Monacular: i had 2 lectures on freud in psych

Calvino Rabeni: I see. Perhaps they are getting carried away a bit

Benedizione Vita: but have you seen this video? it's in montreal--I think it might be mcgill 

Benedizione Vita: oops

Fox Monacular: and 3 classes in art history

Benedizione Vita: wow

Calvino Rabeni: with the influence of genomics, etc.

Benedizione Vita: this is better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zcOFN_VBVo

Calvino Rabeni: But some aspects seem good - neural correlates of consciousness.

Calvino Rabeni: Although I don't know if that is orthodox now.

Fox Monacular: yes, defintely, but it's becoming 'the only' way they teach psych

Fox Monacular: :) Bene, I saw it

Calvino Rabeni: Do you have a feel for where the "interdisciplinary" studies are, these days?

Fox Monacular: people in mcgill when they graduate they know that mental ilness us cured pharmacologically, and that humanitistic psych, or psychoanalysis is all BS

Fox Monacular: well, that's where I'm going for a phd:)

Fox Monacular: it's called 'special individual program'

Calvino Rabeni: Interested.

Fox Monacular: and you have to have 3 supervisors in different departments

Fox Monacular: then you explain what you're going to do, and why it doesn't fit within one discipline

Fox Monacular: and if they accept you - you can basically do whatever you want

Calvino Rabeni: I went to a school that supported a similar program. It was undergraduate however.

Fox Monacular: so I have 2 supervisors out of 3 figured out, shopping for 1 more

Fox Monacular: like a multi-track? we had that in mcgill too

Calvino Rabeni: So can you summarize youre 3 challenges ? :)

Fox Monacular: so I'm not quite sure what's going on on the interdisciplinary front, and I get the feeling that they are not sure either... I mean professors in the program:)

Fox Monacular: well, it is going to be on dreaming

Calvino Rabeni: You have 3 different sales jobes

Fox Monacular: I'll keep working with the same supervisor + 2 more

Fox Monacular: one of them is a magician:)

stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps Maxine will know of someone

Calvino Rabeni: You have some new angles to add...

--BELL--

Fox Monacular: yes, I'd like to work on embodied cognition, something along the lines of Varela, neuroscience, Merleau Ponty

stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Merleau-Ponty

stevenaia Michinaga: seems everything has a wiki page

Fox Monacular: hehe:)

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: well I must go

Calvino Rabeni: important work

Fox Monacular: I have more than a year to figure out my topic, so I'm still contemplating

stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon

Calvino Rabeni: good evening stevenaia

Fox Monacular: i have to go too

Fox Monacular: baby's still awake!

Calvino Rabeni: Hopefuly we can support / bias that process :)

Benedizione Vita: bye fox

Fox Monacular: one of my future supervisors actually is the man who introduced me to Varela, Gendlin and other awesome thinkers

Calvino Rabeni: Name?

Fox Monacular: so I;m lucky he accepted to work with me

Fox Monacular: Xin Wei Sha

Calvino Rabeni: happy for you

Fox Monacular: http://www.topologicalmedialab.net/j.../2/18/lang,en/

Calvino Rabeni: and good to meet you because I have been interested in that for a very long time

Fox Monacular: great! we should talk about it more another time

Calvino Rabeni: thanks for the links

Fox Monacular: my pleasure:)

Calvino Rabeni: yes, any time - in or out of PAB context

Fox Monacular: definitely

Calvino Rabeni: delighted

Fox Monacular: :)

Fox Monacular: ok, now I hear mama mama mama from the other room, I don't know for how much longer my husband can defend himselg

Fox Monacular: thank you for the wonderful conversation

Fox Monacular: good night Bene, Cal

Calvino Rabeni: quite welcome, good night.

Benedizione Vita: goodnight foxy, cal