2009.11.21 07:00 - Anger

The Guardian for this meeting was sophia Placebo. The comments are by sophia Placebo.

 

Pema Pera: Hi Fael and Arch!
Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hi Pema
Fael Illyar: I was at a teaching at local Nyingma center this morning. Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche was teaching about Buddha's root teaching.
Pema Pera: on videa, or in person?
Fael Illyar: Hi Eliza :)
Fael Illyar: in person
Pema Pera: *video
Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema, Fael, Arch :)
Fael Illyar: hi Sophia :)
sophia Placebo: Greetings!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia :)
Pema Pera: in RL?
Fael Illyar: yes, in RL
Pema Pera: ah, okay!
Pema Pera: was wondering :)
Pema Pera: How was his talk?
Pema Pera: hi Sophia!
Fael Illyar: a bit difficult to follow. His English is a bit poor :)
Pema Pera: oh thank you, Sophia!
Fael Illyar: but somehow, I ended up speaking with a couple of others after the teaching and was invited to eat with them.
Fael Illyar: (and Dakpa)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :)
Pema Pera: that must have been interesting!
Pema Pera: hi Yaku!
Fael Illyar: Yes :)
Fael Illyar: might have been the best vegetarian food I've eaten in my life :)
Pema Pera: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Greetings friend Yakuzza
Fael Illyar: Hi Yak :)
sophia Placebo: Hi Yak
Fael Illyar: but I'm still kind of shy in RL, meeting people the first time so it was a bit awkward :)
Pema Pera: where does he live, in Finland? Or was he traveling through?
Fael Illyar: Helsinki
Fael Illyar: he's founded a center called Dana Kosha in Helsinki
Pema Pera: ah, so you'll have a chance to go back
Fael Illyar: yes, relatively easy to go to him.
Fael Illyar: someone has a cat? :)
Archmage Atlantis: Helsinki is many kilos from Turku
Fael Illyar: yes, 2 hours by train.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, thanks... now I can put the puzzle together to see who you are talking about... thanks, Google. :)
Fael Illyar giggles 'You missed the first important line from me.'
Archmage Atlantis: Just. my shoulder tiger, and he has been broken a long time
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Fael Illyar: one of the things he said during the teaching that I felt noteworthy is "anger comes from thinking the fault lie entirely within someone else"
Archmage Atlantis: actually, this is unfair to others here
Archmage Atlantis: Fael and I talked of this in the 15 minutes before we came here
Fael Illyar: Hi Eos :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eos
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Gang!
sophia Placebo: Hi Eos
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Eos :)
Archmage Atlantis: I said that i would have said
Pema Pera: Hi there Eos!
Fael Illyar: I'm doing my best to replay the conversation we had, Arch :)
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: :-) all
Archmage Atlantis: Anger comes, from somewhere inside or in the past,
Archmage Atlantis: Blame is only a tool to put it somewhere else
Eliza Madrigal: Anger seems to come from a feeling of powerless to affect something or someone... to make something happen or unhappen...
sophia Placebo nods
Archmage Atlantis: Well stated Eliza
Fael Illyar: where does that feeling come from?
Eliza Madrigal: Well Fael you and I have talked about fear before.. so vulnerability I guess...?
Eliza Madrigal: that we can take responsibility for our anger seems a gift... don't have to wait for someone to fix us :)
sophia Placebo: anger comes sometimes when you face a new problem you have no experiance with and you feel you are under pressure of the situation to solve it in short time now better than later
Eliza Madrigal: hmm, yes definitely Sophia
Yakuzza Lethecus: nods
Pema Pera: yes, Sophia
Fael Illyar: Hi Widget :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello wedget
Yakuzza Lethecus: wiedget
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Widget :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Widg
Widget Whiteberry: my apologies, lost track of time
sophia Placebo: Hi Wiedget
Pema Pera: hi Widget!
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Widget
Pema Pera: and yes, Eliza, that is a very interesting angle, that anger is a gift
Pema Pera: a gift in that it can show us another gift :-)
Pema Pera: that we are free
Archmage Atlantis: Agree, Pema
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: I think the ultimate cause is that we identify with being a small and needy creature
Pema Pera: and when our needs (physically, emotionally) are crossed we panic
Archmage Atlantis: It is what we do in response, that is our choice, our will
Pema Pera: and anger is the result
Pema Pera: yes, Arch, we tend to react automatically, but we have the freedom to respond, rather than react
Fael Illyar: yes, anger is a gift. Not something to be thrown away to someone else in disgust.
Pema Pera: in religions, devotion can be a very effective tool to let go of the "needy creature" picture . . . .
Pema Pera: leaving it all to God, giving up, stepping out of the way
Pema Pera: then no needs, and also no need to get angry
sophia Placebo nods
sophia Placebo: but anger is reflex
sophia Placebo: somewhat
Pema Pera: the other way is through meditation and contemplation, to directly see that we are not "needy creatures" but that seems to be harder
Pema Pera: yes, to some extent, Sophia, but we can learn to accept that and so slowly overcome it, I think
Pema Pera: righter than fight it
Pema Pera: *rather
Fael Illyar: yes... anger itself is not a problem. What one does with it can be.
sophia Placebo: accept it yes , overcome it is hard i guess , maybe we can live with it and play with it
Widget Whiteberry: could the analagy of 'leaving it all to God, giving up, stepping out of the way'as a way of letting go of anger be under the appeal of D/s
Pema Pera: in short "playing as Being" can be seen as "playing as if we have no needs, also no need for anger"
Eliza Madrigal: hmm respond rather than react... expansion v contraction. I guess when one rests in devotion.. a kind of larger sense of things there is a feeling of safety and generosity
Pema Pera: since Being definitely has no needs
Fael Illyar: love the anger :)
sophia Placebo: hehe fael , can you tell me why ?
Pema Pera: (sorry, Widget, didn't get that?)
Eos Amaterasu: having no needs avoids the issue -w e all have needs
Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
Eos Amaterasu: even elementary, such as food
Fael Illyar: I could try to explain but it's much better if you can try it yourself :)
Widget Whiteberry: I realize I introduced a different
Widget Whiteberry: angle on this
Eos Amaterasu: first flash of anger can be accurate
Widget Whiteberry: it can wait
Eos Amaterasu: might expose something unspoken, or unspeakable
Pema Pera: no, Widget, I simply didn't understand D/s :-) what is that?
Eliza Madrigal listens
sophia Placebo: im trying to find good anger actually
Widget Whiteberry: that's short for Dominant / submissive relationship, something I only learned of in SL
Fael Illyar: sophia, does anger mean a feeling or an action to you?
Pema Pera: ah!
Widget Whiteberry: I don'nt understand it well
--BELL--
sophia Placebo: both i guess fael
Fael Illyar: remove the action part and it can be good :)
Fael Illyar: or replace
Pema Pera: (and Eos, just to respond, we can leave it for later: yes, we all have needs, as relative truth, but also we have no needs, as absolute truth; both are true, we have to choose in what context we speak)
sophia Placebo: my head is about to explode , my hand is trembling , my mind is seeing the worst scenarios ever < that part ?
Fael Illyar: no, those are actions
Eos Amaterasu: sudden rising of energy
sophia Placebo: how come ?
Archmage Atlantis: Well reactions, actually
Widget Whiteberry: body responses are actions?
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Fael Illyar: yes, they're physical manifestation of thoughts in the mind. So actions
Widget Whiteberry thinks 'adrenaline rush'
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, that I agree with Widget
sophia Placebo: ok
Widget Whiteberry: is it important to know whether it's the idea/thought or the chemical reaction to some stimuli that comes first?
Eliza Madrigal: yes and the body seems to store things we think we've dealt with... so maybe we don't think we think fear/anger, but the body can show us it is there
sophia Placebo: pema , can you say more about we have no needs as absolute truth?
Eos Amaterasu: the chemical rection might be smarter than the thought
Eos Amaterasu: reaction
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fael Illyar: and thoughts are also close to actions, in that we can choose to manifest them or not.
Widget Whiteberry: the vast majority of what the brain does is not accessible to our conscious experience
Fael Illyar: for example, you can think of raising your hand without actually raising it
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Paradise
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise :)
Pema Pera: (I'd be happy to, Sophia, but I don't want to interrupt this thread)
Fael Illyar: Hi Paradise :)
Pema Pera: hi Paradise
sophia Placebo: HI Paradise
Paradise Tennant: hiya everyone :) good morning :)
Eos Amaterasu: think of a smile
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: anger flash can happen when communication is blocked
Eos Amaterasu: just the flash alone can be "enlightening"
Eos Amaterasu: what follows usually is not
Pema Pera: yes
Eos Amaterasu: Anger can also come from feeling you have no voice, cannot communicate - and so can be a speech act
Eos Amaterasu: Some political anger feels like that - people feel they are not allowed to "use your words"
Eliza Madrigal nods ... yes have definitely seen that with kids at times.. a hinderance of expression causing physical outburst, etc
Eliza Madrigal: well, more noticeable/obvious with kids
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: and the energy can also help to break free out of a situation, unfortunately with some damage done to the surroundings
Pema Pera: with adults as well :)
Pema Pera: the energy of anger can be very incisive, cutting
Eos Amaterasu: anger can open space, but that's rare
Fael Illyar: I remember using anger sometimes to overcome fear temporarily.
Archmage Atlantis: I am often on one side of the political spectrum, whidh causes me to see the point the other side is makining that are correct
Eos Amaterasu: cut with nothing extra
Pema Pera: yes!!
Paradise Tennant: sometimes I think we underestimate the nature of energy and the nuturing it requires .. tax ourselve with too much activiity ..too little sleep and the like
Widget Whiteberry: sometimes when I've been very frustrated and not had the words to express myself, or the ability to use my words, I've found that a long fast walk helps me to clear the rushes of feeling and find my language
Paradise Tennant: it makes a tangilble difference in our perceptions :)
Pema Pera: getting enough rest can prevent a lot of anger, yes!
Widget Whiteberry: yes to sleep
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Pema Pera: and enough relaxation, yes, walking, sleeping, sitting
Eos Amaterasu: (there's Pema recommending againg that Paradise get lots of sleep :-)
Pema Pera: hehehe
Paradise Tennant: :)
Pema Pera: the name Paradise may give some hint . . . .
Fael Illyar: one thing that causes lot of anger is wanting things and seeing those not happen. When tired, it hppens more.
sophia Placebo nods
Eos Amaterasu: patience requirese energey
Paradise Tennant: yes
Archmage Atlantis: And in that sleep of death, what dreams may come
--BELL--
Pema Pera: if I may come back briefly to my "no needs" notion, I don't think Eos and I disagreed there -- PaB can be seen as a 9 seconds time out from the relative world of needs, into the absolute words of no needs: two sides of the coin of what appears, what is
sophia Placebo: hmm fael i tried already to look for good constructive anger hmm anger from self not doing things correctly though it has the chance and skills to ? directed anger towards others , with known effects which is to send message that you are angery-unhappy- with them ?
sophia Placebo: opps sorry pema
Pema Pera: no no please continue, Sophia and Fael!
Eos Amaterasu: (I just tried doing a wrathful 90 secs - whew! )
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think alot about the ,,no needs" vs what motivates myself issue, what makes me angry and what is supposed to make myself angry or unhappy is obviously related to that
Fael Illyar: I'd prefer to say that there is no bad anger. Only bad choices.
Pema Pera: (what happened, Eos?)
Fael Illyar: all anger can be learned from. It's always a message too.
Fael Illyar: if it goes to the right address, it's highly beneficial.
Yakuzza Lethecus: is anger good sometimes ?
Widget Whiteberry: how did you do that, Eos. What was your experience?
Eos Amaterasu: At first it was very tense, solid - no bullshit!
Fael Illyar: if it goes to the wrong address, it boomerangs back.
Eos Amaterasu: Then it kind of flipped and became like space:
Eos Amaterasu: ie, first space became totally solid, everything completely visible in it
Eos Amaterasu: then it couldn't hold itself, because that solidity was visible too
Eos Amaterasu: so just space :-)
Pema Pera: :-)
Widget Whiteberry reads 'it' as 'I'
Eos Amaterasu: yes Widget
Eos Amaterasu: in anger all details seem vivid
Widget Whiteberry: are you describing your experience of yourself in those 90 sec?
Eos Amaterasu: which might be the "good" part, Fael and Yak
Eos Amaterasu: the important stuff gets revealed
Eos Amaterasu: problem is the energy of the anger can then deform things
Eos Amaterasu: yes, Widget
Widget Whiteberry: hmmm Eos, in my experience, the details I preceive are vivid, but I later come to find I've missed all sorts of things in my environment
Eos Amaterasu: I don't mean rampaging - that is blind
Widget Whiteberry nods
Eos Amaterasu: We could try it again :-)
Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
Widget Whiteberry: how did you trigger it?
Eos Amaterasu: play as anger :-)
Pema Pera: :)
Paradise Tennant: blinks I read somewhere once that in anger there is almost a 90% chance you have misinterpreted information... usually when I get angry my first thought is to think what am I not processing correctily :)
Fael Illyar: :)
Fael Illyar: Paradise, yes, mine too... although it's automatic enough already that I'm not even aware of the angry part anymore.
Fael Illyar: well, most of the time
Fael Illyar: exceptions still happen :)
Widget Whiteberry: in recent times, my thought is more often to position myself to find out more and to look from a different perspective
Eliza Madrigal: Such a neat conversation... think this will have to continue... Thanks everyone :)
Eos Amaterasu: Bye Eli!
Pema Pera: bye Eliza!
sophia Placebo: bye eliza !
Fael Illyar: Bye Eliza, have fun :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now :) Thanks Fael :)
Paradise Tennant: bye eliza thank you
Pema Pera: I'm happy to do your wrathful exploration, Eos (though I'll have to leave soon after the 90 secs)
Paradise Tennant: :)
Eos Amaterasu: It's hard to hold anger for 90 secs :-)
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: yes... quite hard indeed.
Fael Illyar: also exhausting
Pema Pera: Yes, Eos, it *is* hard! I started out trying to be really angry, and looking for a target, what came first, most naturally, was to be angry at myself, for the harm I'm causing others when I make mistakes. But after twenty seconds I just had to laugh and laugh, and couldn't continue the anger :-)
Paradise Tennant: :) yes always find anger very tiring it drains you of energy .. it needs a lot of energy to form and sustain it
Fael Illyar: oh... I didn't even look for a target
Eos Amaterasu: you momentarily lose the anger,and then often find yourself making up other reasons for it
Pema Pera: :)
Eos Amaterasu: (I think that happens a lot, and creates problems on top of confusions....)
Widget Whiteberry: I see it as a pandoras box
Paradise Tennant: going to have to scoot .. thanks everyone .. always a pleasure :)
Fael Illyar: See you later Paradise :)
Eos Amaterasu: Bye, Paraidise, nice to see you
sophia Placebo: i g2g , bye all , thanks Eos !
Pema Pera: bye Paradise!
sophia Placebo: thnks all
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Pema Pera: bye Sophia!
Eos Amaterasu: bye sophia, yak
Fael Illyar: bye Yak, sophia :)
Pema Pera: and yes, I have to leave too
Eos Amaterasu: I have to scoot myself....
Fael Illyar: bye Pema :)
Widget Whiteberry: see you all later
Pema Pera: good talking with you all !
Eos Amaterasu: we scared ourselves off
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Pema Pera: hehehe
Fael Illyar: by Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: Bye everyone!
Fael Illyar: bye Widget :)
Fael Illyar: ... oh, Arch's away... bye Love :)