2009.11.24 13:00 - A Confabulous Session

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.

 Wol Euler: that was a really good discussion on Sunday, such a pity you had to leave early.
    Mickorod Renard: who me?
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, we were talking about forgiveness
    Mickorod Renard: oh yes
    Mickorod Renard: you know, I hope nobody takes me too serious,,I do play the devils advocate a bit
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
    Mickorod Renard: just to stimulate lialog
    Mickorod Renard: diolog
    Mickorod Renard: oh well,,u know what i mean
    Mickorod Renard: and did it reach a conclusion,,he he
    Wol Euler: several.
    Mickorod Renard: I think its a paradoxical subject
    Wol Euler: Maxine's posted it already, btw.
    Wol Euler: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/11/2009.11.22_13:00_-_On_Forgiveness
    Mickorod Renard: wow great,,I will look it up
    Calvino Rabeni: how paradoxibal, mick?
    Wol Euler: you should, we carried on for your benefit :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he ,,good spelling eh?
    Mickorod Renard: I am re inventing the english language
    Calvino Rabeni: COined a good new word then
    Mickorod Renard: it comes from a mix of typing in the dark , on a new keyboard,,and being rubbish at typing too
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I have changed all my light bulbs for these energy efficient ones
    Wol Euler: ha, and they are dimmer?
    Mickorod Renard: they are great as long as you dont want to see anything
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Mickorod Renard: but someone has to save the planet
    Calvino Rabeni: you can touch type = juage line thois
    Mickorod Renard: you may be able to,,not me..;)
    Calvino Rabeni: I have decided to meditate on my computer
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Mickorod Renard: you wont break it will you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Oddly, it is something I've not done yet, nor heard of anyone else doing
    Qt Core: i once found a mp3 for helping meditation online... 30 minutes of silence, with a bell at the end
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't sit on top of it :)
    Wol Euler: qt, I have a cd like that :)
    Calvino Rabeni: A small file then.
    Mickorod Renard: is it similar to how those mystics sit on a pillar for several months?
    Qt Core: but then... the fans, the hard disks....
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe like sitting inside a circle on the ground.
    Wol Euler: that sounds vaguely familiar, Calvino....
    Qt Core: the idea of using it in a mp3 player and hearphones.. for silence... i laughed for several minutes
    Calvino Rabeni: Some kind of metaphor for everyday consciousness
    Calvino Rabeni: Seems funny, yes
    Qt Core: (not that this 90 sec pause is much different) ;-)
    Qt Core: but we have the birds!
    Calvino Rabeni: I have the box with fans and hard disk in a closet, so the focus would be on the keyboard and screen
    Mickorod Renard: you could do meditation and phenemology at the same time
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is the notion. I don't know of any published studies that combine HCI and phenomenology (HCI - human computer interface)
    Calvino Rabeni: we see the interface - sw see through the interface - it seems a weird mixture
    Mickorod Renard: there is an interesting phenemology club within kira ,,on fridays
    Calvino Rabeni: due to the many breakdowns
    Calvino Rabeni: I recently noticed that
    Calvino Rabeni: there is a lot of material on kira sites - I am trying to catch up
    Wol Euler nods. Over a year of the workshop, I believe.
    Mickorod Renard: I enjotyed the sessions prior to this new time table,,unfortunately I am busy when this one is on
    Mickorod Renard: so what is your specialist subject/interest Calvino,,I have never asked
    Mickorod Renard: if you have one,,as I dont realy
    Calvino Rabeni: I am a generalist, but it clusters around technology and consciousness. My paid work has been in information / knowledge engineering.
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    Wol Euler smiles
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: is there any part that you may think we would be interested in,,like some revelation?
    Calvino Rabeni: complex software systems - i had some interesting jobs, but reflected on them in context of several esoteric interests
    Mickorod Renard: intriguing
    Wol Euler: esoteric interests are always interesting :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) :)
    arabella Ella: esoteric ... listens ...
    Mickorod Renard: now you have made me hungry for more Cal
    Mickorod Renard: anything to do with Ai?
    Calvino Rabeni: It is very mundane, actually - I don't mean esoteric as in arcane philosophical systems
    Qt Core: some unusual weird hardware / software combination, then ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I only did a little in AI proper - some in virtual reality - a lot kind of at semantic level
    Calvino Rabeni: BUt on that topic, I've been interested in confabulation theory
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
    Mickorod Renard: whats that please?
    Qt Core: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: QT, are you referring to the human brain :)
    Qt Core: yeah, weirdes OS i know, right
    Qt Core: weirdest
    Wol Euler: http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Confabulation_theory
    Calvino Rabeni: confabulation theory is a theory about
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, you have to be careful with these definitions, because they are not settled as a paradigm
    Calvino Rabeni: That is not a bad summary
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it is immature though
    Wol Euler: in the sense of "unripe" I trust.
    Calvino Rabeni: Kind of comes from neural connectionism, I gather
    Calvino Rabeni: right, I meant in that sense. It is a little too enthusiastic with its premises - more of a proposal than a theory
    Calvino Rabeni: But that is worthwhile
    Mickorod Renard: sounds fun,,to think about it
    Calvino Rabeni: It is intersteing the conection between thought and the idea that it is an evolutionary refinement of *movement*
    Calvino Rabeni: Because that challenges the classic notions
    Mickorod Renard: yes, i noticed that
    Wol Euler: I find that somewhat odd.
    Calvino Rabeni: THe classic notions have no movement in them
    Mickorod Renard: but perhaps a developement rather than an evolution,,if theres a dirference
    Calvino Rabeni: in that there is a passive homunculus in the mind, receiving sensation
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, a development or ramification.
    Mickorod Renard: sorry, I wasnt challenging your use of evolution,,he he
    Mickorod Renard: didnt see it at first
    arabella Ella: why only in humans then?
    Calvino Rabeni: Just interested in your meaning.
    Mickorod Renard: not only
    Wol Euler nods to Ara. Indeed.
    Calvino Rabeni: area, I think they just don't want to get too much challenge at this point
    Wol Euler: and if it's taken literally, it would also probably rule out AIs.
    Mickorod Renard: interesting point Wol
    Wol Euler: at least emergent, self generatings ones
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps not, if they are constructed as simulations of humans.
    arabella Ella: or you could go for the opposite extreme Wol and it could be developed or 'cultivated' in AI following movement which is an 'animal' motor thing
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, AI's are getting embedded / embodied.
    Wol Euler: so it might spontaneously arise... yes, good point
    arabella Ella: although in philosophy there is a huge contrast between action and events ... the former requiring intention, the latter more 'mechanical' or cause / effect
    Calvino Rabeni: a kind of artificial separation?
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems to presuppose the subject/object distinction
    Calvino Rabeni: so it is built into philosophy
    arabella Ella: action is generally taken (in philosophy) to involve desire, belief and intention (mental stuff)
    Wol Euler: but surely so does intelligence itself?
    Calvino Rabeni: seemingly
    Wol Euler: the first step to thinking about things outside myself is to realize that htey exist.
    Calvino Rabeni: isn't that a natural given?
    Wol Euler: true, but it is *also* the subject/object distinction :)
    Calvino Rabeni: ok, what abouthaving the triad include subject - action - object?
    Calvino Rabeni: As in the common language forms of SVO (subject verb object)
    Calvino Rabeni: In that view maybe there is more room for the "movement"
    arabella Ella: not sure what you are implying there Calvino or how you bring the three concepts together?
    Calvino Rabeni: (waiting for QT)
    Mickorod Renard: what I find interesting is the degree of sophistication the human brain/mind or whatever has grown to,,yet there are several elements it hasnt

developed,,like sonar or radar,,is that silly?..of me
    arabella Ella: what i find to be the most interesting aspect in this position is that the CNS (central nervous system) is also key for movement ... NO CNS no movement
    Mickorod Renard: bats and dolphins use other sources of information gathering
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes. We are theorizing, and I think that can inform the phenomenological study
    Qt Core: (reading the webpage and rearranging his mental connections)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: anna's point, well taken
    arabella Ella: careful how you re-arrange them Qt
    arabella Ella: ehrm ... Ara you mean Calvino?
    Qt Core: mostly end up with the Trek neuron ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I meant, it seems to me when I do self observation
    arabella Ella: (introspection?)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I meant ara earlier
    arabella Ella: :)
    Qt Core: i'm thinking about the connections of this motion-based intelligence and the birth of sense apparatuses
    Calvino Rabeni: Introspection, yes, observing having an experience, that sensation and movement are completely inseparable
    Calvino Rabeni: yet in theory our classic models separate them completely
    Qt Core: first cells reacting to light,smell/flavour/electricity
    Calvino Rabeni: as a matter that affects our ontology
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, there are afferent and efferent nerves, but in the brain thyere appears to be a highly integrated mix of some kind
    Calvino Rabeni: And experience is not a matter of waiting passivly for a signal, computing with it, and then outputting a motion.
    Mickorod Renard: as we were supposedly marine borne species,,I wonder how many neural pathways we have redundant that could have developed in the past?
    Qt Core: i sadly have to go, bye all
    Calvino Rabeni: Hard to tell. The brain is fairly elastic in its ability to redirect
    Mickorod Renard: I read in new scientist some time ago that elolutionary changes can happen very quickly in a spieces
    Mickorod Renard: evolutionary*
    Calvino Rabeni: There seems a little neural network fundamentalism in confabulation theory, but I suspect it is on the right track.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, evolution is not as gradual as once thought.
    Mickorod Renard: I must read up on it Calvino,,its well out of my depth..very interesting
    Wol Euler apologises for being distracted this evening.
    Mickorod Renard: didnt notice Wol,,is all ok?
    arabella Ella: :)
    Wol Euler: just RL intruding on my SL time :)
    Calvino Rabeni: A crude but evocative idea - whatever CAN happen, WILL happen in complex systems
    Wol Euler: damn thing won't stay in its box.
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mickorod Renard: #rl is a real nuisance
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that Life 1.0?
    Wol Euler: afraid so, my hardward doesn't support the upgrade.
    Mickorod Renard: as guardian I may have to edit Damn Wol
    Wol Euler: oh, are we watching our language now? sorry.
    Wol Euler: didn't know we were in a PG sim
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Calvino Rabeni: It goes in the chat logs onto the internet for all eternity :)
    Mickorod Renard: yehhh,,better dress appropriately too
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I had a lesson from Wol, thank you much
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: my pleasure.
    Mickorod Renard: thats a nice furry top u have Wol
    Wol Euler grins. Thank you, it goes with the thigh-high furry boots :)
    Mickorod Renard: winter is on its way
    Wol Euler stands and twirls
    Mickorod Renard: cool
    Wol Euler: a steal at only L$1080 :)
    Mickorod Renard: still room to get a chil
    Mickorod Renard: chill*
    Wol Euler: I rely on the kindness of strangers to avoid that.
    Mickorod Renard: did you ever find it spooky Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: you mean avatars, et al
    Mickorod Renard: seeing the mechanics of the human mind in operation
    Mickorod Renard: spooky avi's,,lots of them
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, not really, maybe uncanny, unexpected
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a little weird to find the holes
    Mickorod Renard: I guess its still facinating to see the amazing way its constructed,,rather than see it in a more ,,erm,,mystical way
    Calvino Rabeni: I find it useful to try to entertain both those perspectives
    Mickorod Renard: not sure I have been arrticuklate there,,but u may catch the drift
    Calvino Rabeni: I find the correlations interesting
    Wol Euler: Reading Freud did that for me, actually, Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Wol Euler: seeing how thoroughly we are conditioned by previous experience and memories
    Wol Euler: "oh, so I'm not entirely free after all?"
    Calvino Rabeni: sorry
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    arabella Ella: which correlations do you find most interesting Calvino?
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I often fear that science will take away the mystery,,and it will loose the magic as if we are children now grown up
    Calvino Rabeni: doesn't seem to have hurt Piet though
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Wol Euler: indeed, he has retained that gleeful air of discovery
    Calvino Rabeni: I am in favor of entertaining these soft notions - imagination, gratitude, forgiveness
    Calvino Rabeni: etc,
    Wol Euler: definitely.
    Calvino Rabeni: and wonder
    Calvino Rabeni: and play
    Mickorod Renard: well, I must admit, even though I am no longer young,,the more I learn makes me more hungry to know more
    arabella Ella: curiousity too
    Mickorod Renard: I think its self perpetuating
    Calvino Rabeni: Science too
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Mick, how?
     Mickorod Renard: well, its a bit like play as being,,like the more that comes to your attention the more it opens up amazement and the desire for another buzz
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: a virtuous circle
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,exactly
    Mickorod Renard: would you mind if I go now,,I have some business to sort out?
    Wol Euler: sure, we're over the hour. Goodnight mick, sort well.
    Calvino Rabeni: not at all, good to talk with yuo
    Wol Euler: I should go as well, workday tomorrow.
    Mickorod Renard: thanks,,its my pleasure,,thanks for the interesting evening
    Calvino Rabeni: see you later.