2012.08.19 13:00 - Rules for Building a Table

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hello everyone!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Kori hi Wol
Korel Laloix: Heya
Aphrodite Macbain: I am also in Padua at the Arena Chapel
Aphrodite Macbain: as is Wol
Korel Laloix: Where?
Korel Laloix: I am on the back porch... smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds nice. In another sim
Aphrodite Macbain: on another grid
Korel Laloix: OH OK.
Korel Laloix: Which one?
Aphrodite Macbain: Rutgers University
Wol Euler: evening all!
Korel Laloix: Rutgers has their own VR grid?
Aphrodite Macbain: The quality of the graphics is not nearly as good as this but the reproductions of the Arena Chapel are excellent
Wol Euler: they have a presence on OpenSim
Korel Laloix: OH OK.
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Wol
Wol Euler: a few regions, maybe 6 or 8
Korel Laloix: Knot been in open sim for years I don’t think.
Korel Laloix: In OS Grid a bit now though.
Aphrodite Macbain: It looks like a very early version
Wol Euler: yep
Wol Euler: opensim is very much like SL in 2008 or so
Wol Euler: with uglier avatars
Wol Euler: IMHO YMMV
Korel Laloix: Can't argue.
Wol Euler: it was such a discomfort to be in that hideous default shape *shudders*
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph, Wol, Kori
Wol Euler ducks as the train goes flying past
Wol Euler: helllo bruce
Korel Laloix: I did not see it.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. I was amazed how uncomfortable it made me feel!
Aphrodite Macbain: I wanted to wash
Bruce Mowbray: It came off the tracks again?
Aphrodite Macbain: it did?
Bruce Mowbray: [13:07] Wol Euler ducks as the train goes flying past
Agatha Macbeth: Flying trains?
Aphrodite Macbain: I am feeling a little dazed after being in another sim in the 14th century
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, aggers.
Aphrodite Macbain: aggers!
Wol Euler: hello aggers
Bruce Mowbray feels a need to grab jet pack.
Agatha Macbeth: Hello :)
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds a trifle dangerous
Bruce Mowbray: In case the train comes off the track again -- a speedy escape.
Korel Laloix: Just move to the other side of the pavilion maybe.

Agatha Macbeth: Flying trains seems a good enough topic
Korel Laloix: Not a topic.. but a question.....
Aphrodite Macbain: shoot!
Agatha Macbeth: Why do they fly?
Bruce Mowbray: Here it comes!
Wol Euler: "lag"
Aphrodite Macbain: holds her breath
Bruce Mowbray: fires up jetpack.
Aphrodite Macbain: vroom
Wol Euler: your client isn't getting up-to-date information on its position, so it has to try to guess from what it was most recently known to be doing
Aphrodite Macbain: Kori?
Wol Euler: if the last thing your client knows is that it was heading southeast and going slightly uphill, that is what it will continue to show you
Agatha Macbeth tries to listen to everybody

Free water?

Korel Laloix: I met someone for lunch the other day.... and she brought her own tea.... asked the waitress to bring hot water....... is that a little rude or eccentric or what?
Korel Laloix: What do you think?
Wol Euler: fairly common, but yes I'd call it eccentric
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe she's picky about how it's made
Korel Laloix: Could be... just was a bit odd to me.
Agatha Macbeth: People are all different
Korel Laloix: I would not bring in my own coffee or wine to a restaurant...
Bruce Mowbray: Whew!
Korel Laloix: She grew up in Japan though, so maybe that is part of it.
Aphrodite Macbain: I know a number of people who do that. It would be polite however to also order something from the menu
Korel Laloix: Oh she did... and they charged me as if she ordered their tea.
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm
Agatha Macbeth: What's odd to one might be perfectly normal for another
Korel Laloix: That is very true.
Aphrodite Macbain: it is illegal to charge for water I thought (unless it's bottled)
Bruce Mowbray: I have a friend who ALWAYS carries his own teas -- and asks for hot water.. .
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: OK... thanks for that input.
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Purple!
Wol Euler: shhhhhh
Purple Quartz: Hi. Call me Puck...I prefer the abbreviation
Bruce Mowbray: (Purple has been here before and has given permission for his chats to be in the wiki).
Agatha Macbeth nods
Bruce Mowbray: Sry -- Puck . . . (cool!)
Aphrodite Macbain waits for bell
Agatha Macbeth: Ding
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bleu.
Agatha Macbeth: (and thanks for the explanation btw Wol)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: have you been here before Puck?
Korel Laloix: Heya
Wol Euler: she absolutely SHOULD be charged for tea IMHO
Agatha Macbeth: Yes he has Aph
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Oops. Thanks. Hi Bleu
Wol Euler: unless she brought her own teapot and teacup, and table and chair, and kettle
Wol Euler: and then washed up afterwards herself
Korel Laloix: lol...
Bruce Mowbray: My friends always pays for the hot water... in a tip to the watress/waiter.
Korel Laloix: I was OK paying for it..
Aphrodite Macbain: So she is not paying for the tea but the overhead costs
Korel Laloix: I just felt a bit strange about her asking.
Wol Euler: which continue to exist
Wol Euler: it is odd :)
Korel Laloix: So I won't feel strange next time.
Korel Laloix: Might start doing it myself...
Agatha Macbeth: Just go out with someone else instead :p
Aphrodite Macbain: We get served water in a glass and are not charged; why should we be charged if it is hot water?
Korel Laloix: The tea you get in Oklahoma is pretty bad usually... but there are some places that have the good stuff.
Agatha Macbeth: It's so long since I did that i can't even remember
Korel Laloix: Well, you need a steeping pt and the like.
Wol Euler: [13:17] Wol Euler: unless she brought her own teapot and teacup, and table and chair, and kettle [13:17] Wol Euler: and then washed up afterwards herself
Aphrodite Macbain: a teapot?
Korel Laloix: To let the tea sit for a few mins.
Wol Euler: and the waitress carries hot water back and forth, and they use a table that a paying customer might have sat at
Aphrodite Macbain: no one charges me for the glass I drink my cold water from
Korel Laloix: But we ate as well.
Bruce Mowbray: In the restaurant where I used to work, they did not put out water -- nor did they put down spoons, unless the customer specifically asked for them. . . or unless the customer ordered coffee (then they got a spoon).
Wol Euler: well, whatever :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: Interesting..
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's a cultural thing
Aphrodite Macbain: As I say, some other food should also be ordered as well -- that they do pay for
Bruce Mowbray: I think that's BIG BOY policy all over now.
Korel Laloix: Different parts of the world.
Korel Laloix: Never eaten there.
Aphrodite Macbain: Nice hairdo Bleu
Bleu Oleander: ty Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: never heard of Big Boy
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe he's related to Big Brother
Agatha Macbeth: (agree about Bleu's hair)

Rules to Live by?

Aphrodite Macbain: Shall we look at the topic Eliza and San have suggested
Bruce Mowbray: Sure!
Bleu Oleander: (ty Aggers)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, what was it?
Aphrodite Macbain: San has offered the following interesting page up for discussions this week: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/page/6/ (attributed to John Cage and Sister Corita
Aphrodite Macbain: Ways of learning, being teaching.
Agatha Macbeth: Hmm
Wol Euler: hello san

RULE ONE: Find a place you trust, and then try trusting it for awhile.

RULE TWO: General duties of a student — pull everything out of your teacher; pull everything out of your fellow students.

RULE THREE: General duties of a teacher — pull everything out of your students.

RULE FOUR: Consider everything an experiment.

RULE FIVE: Be self-disciplined — this means finding someone wise or smart and choosing to follow them. To be disciplined is to follow in a good way. To be self-disciplined is to follow in a better way.

RULE SIX: Nothing is a mistake. There’s no win and no fail, there’s only make.

RULE SEVEN: The only rule is work. If you work it will lead to something. It’s the people who do all of the work all of the time who eventually catch on to things.

RULE EIGHT: Don’t try to create and analyze at the same time. They’re different processes.

RULE NINE: Be happy whenever you can manage it. Enjoy yourself. It’s lighter than you think.

RULE TEN: “We’re breaking all the rules. Even our own rules. And how do we do that? By leaving plenty of room for X quantities.” (John Cage) HINTS: Always be around. Come or go to everything. Always go to classes. Read anything you can get your hands on. Look at movies carefully, often. Save everything — it might come in handy later.
 

Bruce Mowbray: http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/page/6/
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we can pick one..
Agatha Macbeth: Hello San
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, San
Santoshima Resident: hello Agatha, and everyone!
Aphrodite Macbain: Speak of the devil!
Wol Euler: hello bleu, puck
Agatha Macbeth: Ok, he's red has horns and a tail....
Bleu Oleander: number 5 interests me ... how do you find someone wise? How do you choose an expert?
Aphrodite Macbain: RULE TEN: “Agatha Macbeth: Heard a lot of JC lately
Aphrodite Macbain: What do you think San? Shall we choose one of the rules to discuss?
Bleu Oleander: hiya San
Santoshima Resident: as you like, Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I rather like Rule 4
Aphrodite Macbain: RULE FOUR: Consider everything an experiment
Agatha Macbeth: Agree, sounds good
Santoshima Resident: excellent choice
Korel Laloix: So is choosing number four an experiment?
Aphrodite Macbain: To me that implies being open minded all the time and questioning assumptions
Aphrodite Macbain: just a suggestion Kori
Korel Laloix: I still think being open minded is way over rated.... and when people say "be open minded" what they actually mean is "you must agree with me".
Bleu Oleander: lots of bias written into "being open minded"
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe they are saying, “please just listen to me"
Bruce Mowbray: If you consider that except for the mind's conceptual generalizations, everything happens only once . . .
Santoshima Resident: maybe they are saying: mememememe
Bruce Mowbray: The next time "it happens," something is different.
Korel Laloix: Usually not... when someone tells you to be open minded they are usually being insulting.
Korel Laloix: At least in my experience.
Wol Euler: yes, there's a difference between saying it of yourself and telling somebody else that as an instruction
Bleu Oleander: diff between being open minded and someone telling you to be open minded
Bruce Mowbray: What if they said, "Let's both create a space large enough to contain the question under discussion"?
Korel Laloix: That works better I think.
Bruce Mowbray: and then build that space together and both get inside it.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes as in Rule 10
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: let's all get inside it
Bruce Mowbray whispers: "RULE TEN: “We’re breaking all the rules. Even our own rules. And how do we do that? By leaving plenty of room for X quantities."
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Zon, welcome
Zon Kwan: hey all
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zon
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza, Zon :)
Wol Euler: hello eliza
Zon Kwan: what are we talking about ?
Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Wol, everyone
Zon Kwan: elizaaa :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza. Hey, Zon.
Agatha Macbeth: Liz ♥
Wol Euler: sorry zon, didn't see you. hello
Agatha Macbeth lizhugs
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
Bruce Mowbray: ♥ ♥ ♥
Zon Kwan: RULE SIX: Nothing is a mistake. There’s no win and no fail, there’s only make.
Zon Kwan: likes this
Zon Kwan: and this
Zon Kwan: RULE EIGHT: Don’t try to create and analyze at the same time. They’re different processes.
Bruce Mowbray: So, making oneself ready for "X quantities" -- that means expecting to be surprised?
Aphrodite Macbain: Have we finished with the last one? RULE FOUR: Consider everything an experiment.
Aphrodite Macbain: I would hate to cut anyone off
Zon Kwan: good too
Bleu Oleander: finished? not if you read number one
Aphrodite Macbain: RULE ONE: Find a place you trust, and then try trusting it for awhile.
Bruce Mowbray: RULE ONE feels to me like finding one's "spot" or "dot" (as Trungpa put it.
Santoshima Resident: brb, sister visiting ~ huggable moment

Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh!~ GROUP HUGS!
Bleu Oleander: hiya Bert
Bruce Mowbray tele-hugs San's sister.
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Bertrum
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bertrum
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bert!
Bertrum Resident: hi everyone
Wol Euler: hello bertrum

Eliza Madrigal: does have that feeling
Aphrodite Macbain: that is the first and hardest challenge I guess.
Aphrodite Macbain: To find one's spot
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. It also reminds me of Oprah: "Everyone needs to have a safe place."

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Adams!!
Wol Euler: hello adams, nice to see you again
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Adams!
Wol Euler: very colourful
Aphrodite Macbain: See you’ve changed a bit!
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Adams :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Adams :)
Zon Kwan: adams
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Aphrodite Macbain: That was a great talk you gave
Wol Euler coughs.
Bruce Mowbray: open sim chapel?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray: cool, thanks.
Adams Rubble hasn't been out in ages :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: so we are talking about Rules to live by and sticking to a chosen one
Eliza Madrigal: well you chose a nice sunny day to come to the pavilion
Adams Rubble: :)
Bruce Mowbray looks to sky. . .

Eliza Madrigal: a few of those rules have a vigorous sort of follow through quality
Aphrodite Macbain: It is difficult to stay focused on one. What is it about us that makes us want to wander?
Bruce Mowbray: They overlap.
Eliza Madrigal: yes... underneath them all there is a kind of outlook
Bruce Mowbray: I'm following RULE TEN while considering RULE FOUR.
Aphrodite Macbain: I feel like I'm at a smorgasbord and have to choose everything at once
Wol Euler: different facets of the same prim
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: DO choose everything . . . That's one of the rules, in fact.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zon Kwan: hates rules
Bleu Oleander: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: How about this one: RULE EIGHT: Don’t try to create and analyze at the same time. They’re different processes.
Eliza Madrigal: the rules just point, right? So we can in the spirit of 2 and 3, pull everything we can out of them
Zon Kwan: but like to experiment
Agatha Macbeth: Me too
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: RULE TWO: General duties of a student — pull everything out of your teacher; pull everything out of your fellow students. RULE THREE: General duties of a teacher — pull everything out of your students.
Aphrodite Macbain: when we build in SL don’t we create and analyze at the same time?
Eliza Madrigal: eight sounds like some of our group questions about science and "spirituality"
Zon Kwan: no
Zon Kwan: in turns but not at same time
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Bruce Mowbray: RULE EIGHT: Don’t try to create and analyze at the same time. They’re different processes.
Wol Euler: I read that one as a suggestion against criticizing your work while you work
Zon Kwan: yup
Aphrodite Macbain: So you think two parts of the brain can’t be active at the same time?
Eliza Madrigal: ah
Zon Kwan: stops the low
Zon Kwan: flow
Bruce Mowbray: Separating creativity and judgment, then ?
Bleu Oleander: analyze isn't criticize necessarily
Aphrodite Macbain: It's called multi-tasking
Wol Euler: finish what you are working on before you decide whether it is good or not, because the work you have yet to do might make it good
Zon Kwan: analyze is splitting on parts
Wol Euler: in writing, this is clearer
Wol Euler: you can either write, or you can edit what was written
Zon Kwan: creating is oppose
Wol Euler: but you cannot edit words that exist only in your head
Bleu Oleander: I think you can
Aphrodite Macbain: but when I write I create and edit simultaneously
Bruce Mowbray: When I really create something, I MUST wait a day or two to look at it again. . .
Wol Euler: really? wow.
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: isn't that called “think before you speak”?
Zon Kwan: that way you make silent people
Aphrodite Macbain: let's not write (during the 90 seconds)

Eliza Madrigal: "The hardest part is believing in yourself at the notebook stage. It is like believing in dreams in the morning." Erica Jong
Aphrodite Macbain: I think creativity can be a very analytical critical process
Bruce Mowbray: Similar idea to "Sleep on it - it will be clearer in the morning."
Aphrodite Macbain: depends what we mean by creative
Aphrodite Macbain: doing things newly and differently can also be like doing things analytically
Zon Kwan: analyze has a role in the process
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Zon Kwan: its like in and out breathing
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, I'm not down on analysis, myself.
Zon Kwan: you cant do both same time
Aphrodite Macbain: we tend to romanticize creativity
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: two sides of the same coin?
Aphrodite Macbain: as some euphoric flowing state
Zon Kwan: in a way
Bleu Oleander: analysis can be creative
Aphrodite Macbain: but it is also energetic, precise, analytical
Eliza Madrigal: not romanticized on this list: see rule 7
Adams Rubble: Good not to be limited by what one thinks their limitations are
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps, different mind-modes . . . different but both have functionality.
Zon Kwan: if analyzing too much, it stops the process or it doesn’t even start
Aphrodite Macbain: RULE SEVEN: The only rule is work. If you work it will lead to something. It’s the people who do all of the work all of the time who eventually catch on to things.
Zon Kwan: balance
Bruce Mowbray: So, creating a large enough container to hold the subject under discussion -- or to hold the thing being created -- is important.
Aphrodite Macbain: work doesn't necessarily mean creative work
Eliza Madrigal: planting and harvest
Bruce Mowbray ponders washing the kitchen floor creatively.
Aphrodite Macbain: I hate rule #7!
Eliza Madrigal: and being willing to experiment with new seeds
Aphrodite Macbain: Puritan work ethic
Bruce Mowbray: RULE SEVEN: The only rule is work. If you work it will lead to something. It’s the people who do all of the work all of the time who eventually catch on to things.
Aphrodite Macbain: I just quoted that :-)

Eliza Madrigal laughs Bruce .. think it can be done but easier not to
Aphrodite Macbain: If it is an interesting experiment, then somehow it is no longer work, it is play
Bruce Mowbray ponders his non-creativity in repeating rule #7.
Wol Euler loves Rule 7.
Aphrodite Macbain: :-D
Santoshima Resident: ditto
Aphrodite Macbain: Please explain yourself Wol!
Wol Euler: you can't edit a page that you haven't written yet.
Zon Kwan: means be active
Aphrodite Macbain: and San
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe it's only "work" if you think of it that way -- as a chore.
Zon Kwan: do something
Zon Kwan: not just dream
Wol Euler: you can't judge the sturdiness of a table you haven't built yet
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Zon. . . It means be active rather than passive. . .
Zon Kwan: realise the dream
Aphrodite Macbain: But what would motivate me to build the table?
Santoshima Resident: creative impulse
Santoshima Resident: curiosity
Santoshima Resident: artistic drive

Bruce Mowbray: Don't let life merely come at you -- go out there a BITE a chunk out of LIFE!
Wol Euler: whatever *does* motivate you to build it, aph
Eliza Madrigal: also... sometimes what you are working on isn't directly related to the creativity that may emerge
Aphrodite Macbain: There has to be something beyond the work - a reason for the work
Agatha Macbeth: Doesn’t it usually bite you back Bruce?
Zon Kwan: if it’s inside you, you do it
Wol Euler: and also sometimes, seeing what you made changes what you think you want to make
Wol Euler: serendipity
Eliza Madrigal: many songs and poem arose for people planting in fields... plowing or washing dishes
Bruce Mowbray: It can bite you back; think of it as an experiment.
Aphrodite Macbain: a masochistic experiment?
Santoshima Resident: how so?
Zon Kwan: if you enjoy it
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Aphrodite Macbain: if it bites you back
Wol Euler: also in programming and in architecture: you have to draw it (code it) once to see what it actually is
Wol Euler: as long as you are only thinking about it, you don't know what it is
Eliza Madrigal: interesting, Wol
Zon Kwan: nods to wol
Bleu Oleander: I think you can know ahead of building a table whether or not it will be sturdy
Aphrodite Macbain: ah - you are talking about taking action
Aphrodite Macbain: not work
Wol Euler: define work
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph -- being active instead of passive.
Zon Kwan: yes action
Bruce Mowbray: Being the CAUSE and not merely the effect.
Bruce Mowbray: of everything else's being the cause.
Agatha Macbeth: I'm off to PP and Berti now
Eliza Madrigal: fortune favors the prepared mind ...
Agatha Macbeth: Be well all
Bruce Mowbray: bye bye.
Zon Kwan: bye aph
Adams Rubble: bye Agatha
Bleu Oleander: bye Aggers
Eliza Madrigal: Bye :) me too actually
Wol Euler: yes, bertram
Santoshima Resident: bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Wol for me - work is something that is a responsibility and a bit of a burden
Wol Euler: goodnight all (see you there)
Zon Kwan: or Aga
Adams Rubble: night wol
Bleu Oleander: bye all :)
Wol Euler: we should talk about that then some day, aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye all. I'll be there in a minute
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Adams Rubble: bye Eliza and Bleu
Wol Euler: because to me work is potentially anything that isn't sleep
Wol Euler: just as play is the same
Aphrodite Macbain: Don’t work too hard Wol!
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you everyone.
Santoshima Resident: :)
Adams Rubble: bye Bruce
Eliza Madrigal waves :)
Eliza Madrigal: (thinks play comes in here somewhere ;)
Aphrodite Macbain: San- thanks for passing on these rules
Zon Kwan: bye all that leave
Adams Rubble: where is everyone going?
Santoshima Resident: a pleasure
Aphrodite Macbain: To Bert’s meditation
Santoshima Resident: bye all
Adams Rubble: ah
Adams Rubble: thanks
Zon Kwan: where is it
Aphrodite Macbain: in Perfect Paradise
Adams Rubble: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Adams can I get an email address from you?
Adams Rubble: I must go too. Nice to see you all :)
Zon Kwan: waves to all
Adams Rubble: ? Aphrodite
Aphrodite Macbain: so I can discuss the Arena Chapel more
Adams Rubble: you have one on the Guardian list
Aphrodite Macbain: never mind. Talk later
Korel Laloix: Please do.
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: oh ok
Aphrodite Macbain: Must go now all
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Adams Rubble: IM'd you Aph
Korel Laloix: Take care.