2012.08.20 07:00 - Play As (if) Nothing is Missing

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Eliza Madrigal: Hello oO0Oo :)
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: excuse my fidgeting... hair issues today
oO0Oo Resident: too darn hot?
oO0Oo Resident: ;)
Eliza Madrigal: mhm :)
Eliza Madrigal: wonderful emails in the group this morning - thank you for yours!
oO0Oo Resident: : )
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Mick, Alf
Mickorod Renard: Hi Folks
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alfred, and Mick (what a surprise - off time for you) :)
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Alfred Kelberry: mr mick
Mickorod Renard: I have an unstable connection,,I may crash
Eliza Madrigal: sorry to hear that
Mickorod Renard: :)


Mickorod Renard: anything exciting happening?
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm... exciting....
Eliza Madrigal: I think the group emails are pretty exciting :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, I liked the San one..its funny I was thinking on similar lines a day or two before
Eliza Madrigal: the John Cage list of rules?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Eliza Madrigal: what caught your attention?

Mickorod Renard: well, I had been musing over why I hadnt achieved and why so many young ones at school struggle,,and yet now I am on fire with wanting to know and learn
Mickorod Renard: and much is to do with self doubt and the idea that its too much to make great headway

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: but on the other hand,,,if I could inspire some to see through the block
Mickorod Renard: oops
Eliza Madrigal: did you feel that you had missed something, Mick?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Mickorod Renard: the wieght of doubt of ones abilities is like a huge obstacle that holds people down and leads to inactivity, even lazyness. To be rid of such a thing is like taking the burden off a fine race horse
Mickorod Renard: Hi zen
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Zen
Mickorod Renard: its easier sometimes to loose oneself in activities that are perhaps not so productive or rewarding
Eliza Madrigal: interesting to correlate laziness and busyness

Mickorod Renard: I myself, I am extremely gracious for what I have recieved, and yet I do have regrets and frustrations
Eliza Madrigal: without those, do you think you'd recognize that need in others, like the young people you work with?
Mickorod Renard: I think I can relate to them, wheras some of my collegues that are more academic than myself seem to voice diferent opinions maybe due to their accetional ability when they were young to perform
Mickorod Renard: scuse my spelling
Mickorod Renard: exeptional
Mickorod Renard: I think
Mickorod Renard: still looks wrong
Eliza Madrigal nods... yes exceptional, that makes sense
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: thats it,,the missing c
Eliza Madrigal: do you see what I see...
Mickorod Renard: he he

Eliza Madrigal: welcome back, Zen
oO0Oo Resident: :)
oO0Oo Resident: wb Zen
Zen Arado: sill trying to fix Firestorm

Eliza Madrigal: so realy it sounds like you've let go of some of your 'linear' expectation Mick... of blooming on command/demand
Mickorod Renard: it comes back to attachments in a way...kids get attached to the belief they will do bad in their studies..it holds them back
Zen Arado: resonates with me Mick
Eliza Madrigal: yes or that your are a) good student or b) bad student
Zen Arado: parents put them down I think
Zen Arado: happened to me
Mickorod Renard: pressure instead of encouragement
Zen Arado: project their own failure on their kids

Eliza Madrigal: nice parallel to Myna's email this morning, about allowing complexity
Mickorod Renard: didnt see that one
Eliza Madrigal: parents also often expect to be 'linearly' equipped I think, but there is never enough preparation :)
Mickorod Renard: I recall someone very clever telling me they didnt have to try too hard.......I wonder whether some of that was because if one doesnt have the burden of self doubt then it leaves them so much more open to recieving
Eliza Madrigal: as though they expect to greet the 'friendly universe'?
Mickorod Renard: yes, confidence to welcome all must be such a liberating feeling

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: sorry for viewer trouble Zen
Zen Arado: just with saving snaps
Zen Arado: can't download to disk
Zen Arado: or upload

Mickorod Renard: I had been drawn to the thought of 'if you dont walk down the corridor then you will never discover the open doors'
Eliza Madrigal: say more please?
Zen Arado: fear of failure
Zen Arado: ?
Mickorod Renard: well, it was just a thought I had, in connection loosly to the san mail
Mickorod Renard: like if you dont make the effort then you wont even find the easy pickings

oO0Oo Resident: ssimilar to dark cats in dark rooms.. finding some doors
Mickorod Renard: he he , I am not sure about that
oO0Oo Resident: but effort either way
oO0Oo Resident: atunement?
Mickorod Renard: yes, but many dont walk the corridor because they think the doors are all locked or prohibited

Eliza Madrigal: does Pema's "experience has me" imply counter-conditional sort of "effort" ... confidence first
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sza :)
Zen Arado: yes Mick
Mickorod Renard: can you say more eliza
Zen Arado: used to be a class thing in Britain too
Mickorod Renard: Hi sav
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Sza
Zen Arado: Hi Szavaji :)
Eliza Madrigal: like, I came across a line from Pema's time book... a sort of opening of "Play as Being"
Mickorod Renard: twas too Zen, I was never expected to go to uni, that was for rich kids
Eliza Madrigal:

"In short, you are now playing as Being. You are playing as if nothing is missing. What is more, you are playing as if nothing has ever been missing, in any way."

Zen Arado: me too
Zen Arado: so much more openness these days

Mickorod Renard: I think much (if not all) of PaB is to do with it Eliza
szavanna Resident: hi O °͜°
Zen Arado: read something like that in Nisargadatta this morning
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose Nisargadatta's "You are That" could be read like "You are (already) That"...
Eliza Madrigal: tat, tvam, asi
oO0Oo Resident: starting as already through all doors?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, nice

Zen Arado: I am that
Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes... you're right... I was thinking of "I am that, you are that, all this is that, and that's all there is"

Zen Arado: 'Just trust me and live by trusting me. I shall not mislead you. You are the Supreme Reality beyond the world and its creator, beyond consciousness and its witness, beyond all assertions and denials. Remember it, think of it, act on it. Abandon all sense of separation, see yourself in all and act accordingly. With action bliss will come and, with bliss, conviction.'
Eliza Madrigal: wait for bliss?

Mickorod Renard: it must be equally obvious to Pema, coming from his end of understanding to observe the strangeness of fellow humans with so much doubt about their own abilities. perhaps wondering what amazing possibilities would prevail if the full potencial of the world is realized
Mickorod Renard: very nice Zen
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: Mick
szavanna Resident listens interestedly ;o)
Eliza Madrigal: I must admit that the first person to spring to mind when you mentioned people who express little difficulty, was Pema ... but that doesn't mean he hasn't had struggles
Zen Arado: living in a world of self created doubts
Mickorod Renard: well, I have to go now,,
Zen Arado: but byee Mick
oO0Oo Resident: TC Mick
Mickorod Renard: thanks for the chat
oO0Oo Resident: ty
szavanna Resident: take care Mick
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Mick, bye for now
szavanna Resident: °͜°

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: perhaps "play as" is a hint to address that gap between what we know and can say, like recognizing previous conditionings, and the potential we see to play out in our lives... as Mick expresses... that kind of confidence

Zen Arado: because we fear to drop it ?
Zen Arado: conditioning
Zen Arado: so play with idea first
Zen Arado: like animals play at fighting
Zen Arado: preparing for real thing

Zen Arado: not sure I fully understand Rule 1
Eliza Madrigal nods "no hinderance no fear" coming from a place of or kind of Play
Zen Arado: (RULE ONE: Find a place you trust, and then try trusting it for awhile.)
Eliza Madrigal: Bruce likened that rule to "the spot"
Zen Arado: it's a bit vague
Zen Arado: relationships?
Eliza Madrigal: just an outline :)

Zen Arado: trust in people difficult sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: trust in difficult people? :)
Zen Arado: but that's fear setting in I guess
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: 'taking a chance on love'
Eliza Madrigal hears Abba
szavanna Resident: ;p
oO0Oo Resident: haha
Eliza Madrigal: ba ba ba ba ba...
Zen Arado: take a chance on meeeeeeeeeeeee
Eliza Madrigal: :)
szavanna Resident taps feet

Eliza Madrigal: well I do like the 'rules' toward drawing out from one another - in this context teachers and students but equally applicable among Friends
Eliza Madrigal: reminds me of the feedback and shadow discussion .. great link O passed along but I haven't gotten through yet
Eliza Madrigal: http://arizonaenergy.org/Aikido/Shadow.htm
Zen Arado: maybe time I stopped learning
szavanna Resident: ty Liz
oO0Oo Resident: This one is also useful: http://is.gd/xlSMEy
Eliza Madrigal: ty
Eliza Madrigal: let learning have you, Zen

--BELL--

Zen Arado: learning as being

Eliza Madrigal: Mick brought up a kind of downside of self-doubt but it seems important too... questioning
Eliza Madrigal: leaving room (ignorance)
Eliza Madrigal: besides that is easily shared ... whereas knowledge can be quite specialized but we all have in common that we don't know a lot
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Zen Arado: the power of ignorance
szavanna Resident nods - she knows very little
Eliza Madrigal: so we have to reach out

oO0Oo Resident: thinks of Eddie Brickell
Zen Arado: who?
Eliza Madrigal: :) what I am is what I am...
oO0Oo Resident: http://is.gd/rfvmdj
Zen Arado: thought that was Popeye :)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: I yam what I yam
Zen Arado: ah yes remember that song
szavanna Resident: brb
Eliza Madrigal: she looks like a more innocent version of tawnie catain (sp?) - 80s memory lane
oO0Oo Resident: monkeys with content boxes
Eliza Madrigal: yes oO0Oo?
oO0Oo Resident: referring to the final images in the video
oO0Oo Resident: seeing the way they could close in or open the others in a box
Eliza Madrigal: contraption
oO0Oo Resident: automaton?

Zen Arado: 'don't let me get too deep'

Eliza Madrigal: could appear to do that.. can't actually do that
oO0Oo Resident: well.. that unsettles that then ;)
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Zen Arado: :)
oO0Oo Resident laughs

--BELL--

szavanna Resident: back °͜°
Zen Arado: wb Szva :)
oO0Oo Resident: wb Sza
szavanna Resident: ty Guruji °͜°
Eliza Madrigal: the shadow discussion also brings to mind Suzuki's "wide field"... the sense that in some places or times, with friends, there feels to be fewer boundaries or hinderances...
szavanna Resident: Gurujis
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: a friend said the other day "when I was talking to ___ I heard myself say things I didn't realize I knew"

Zen Arado: wasn't that a way to control?
oO0Oo Resident: Is there a reference for the Suzuki snip Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't read it that way Zen, in Zen Mind Beginners Mind ... not as intentional control but as a way of saying that there is a range that presents itself?
Eliza Madrigal: let me see if I can pull up the quote

“Even though you try to put people under control, it is impossible. You cannot do it. The best way to control people is to encourage them to be mischievous. Then they will be in control in a wider sense. To give your sheep or cow a large spacious meadow is the way to control him. So it is with people: first let them do what they want, and watch them. This is the best policy. To ignore them is not good. That is the worst policy. The second worst is trying to control them. The best one is to watch them, just to watch them, without trying to control them.” 
― Shunryu Suzuki, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind

Zen Arado: seem to remember way to control animals was to put them in a bigger field
Zen Arado: i.e less control
Eliza Madrigal: yes, it is about control and one's "cow" hah...but more than that?
Eliza Madrigal: looking to see exact snippet - lots in a search of people talking 'about' the snippet
oO0Oo Resident smiles
szavanna Resident: :)
szavanna Resident: I am listening just not clever enough to say something ...sigh
Zen Arado: long time since I read that book

szavanna Resident: control one's cow °͜°
Eliza Madrigal: like "hold your ponies"
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
oO0Oo Resident: I'm with Sza
Zen Arado: thought it was like you don't keep a spouse in a clenched fist but in an open hand
szavanna Resident: ;p O
Zen Arado: support but not imprison
Eliza Madrigal: same I think... same sensibility... openness its own intimacy
szavanna Resident: :)


Zen Arado: I have a nagging feeling of lots of things to do
szavanna Resident: oh me too
szavanna Resident: as usual
Eliza Madrigal: :) play as if you've done everything already?
Zen Arado: why?
Zen Arado: always try to do too much
Zen Arado: why?
szavanna Resident: I enjoy it
Zen Arado: can't relax
szavanna Resident: I can't stop
szavanna Resident: my hindi is still nowhere
Zen Arado: me too
szavanna Resident: grrr
Zen Arado: hindi?
Eliza Madrigal: have you set a goal timeframe Sza?


szavanna Resident: I always want to learn 10 languages in the same time
szavanna Resident: hmm not easy
Zen Arado: I have enough with French
szavanna Resident: to fit in everything
Zen Arado: :)
szavanna Resident: ahh really °͜° so what next ;)

oO0Oo Resident: One of the rules says we are to pull a lot out of each other?
Zen Arado: don't know
Eliza Madrigal: mhm
oO0Oo Resident laughs
Zen Arado: trying to collaborate for next AoB project

Eliza Madrigal:

RULE TWO: General duties of a student — pull everything out of your teacher; pull everything out of your fellow students.
RULE THREE: General duties of a teacher — pull everything out of your students.

Zen Arado: difficult for me
oO0Oo Resident: k then.. Zen! Sza! Get on that Hindi learning!

--BELL--

Zen Arado: should have done some painting
szavanna Resident: you know what is exciting about languages?
oO0Oo Resident: ?
Eliza Madrigal listens
Zen Arado: what?
szavanna Resident: when you learn a langauge and you start talking to people in their own langauge
Zen Arado: yes
szavanna Resident: it feels like you are becoming them
oO0Oo Resident: :)
szavanna Resident: it's like an instant shift
Eliza Madrigal: mmm

Zen Arado: trying to converse in French
szavanna Resident: the same with learning their folk songs
Zen Arado: but frustrating too
szavanna Resident: hmm I don't focus on the actual meaning
szavanna Resident: lol
Eliza Madrigal: underlying quality - music
szavanna Resident: yes
szavanna Resident: and the acceptance of another culture

Zen Arado: I'm learning not to be so literal
szavanna Resident: instant cleverness ;p
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Zen Arado: some things don't translate the same
szavanna Resident: °͜°
szavanna Resident: oh of course
szavanna Resident: I don't ever try to really translate
szavanna Resident: just feel it
Zen Arado: hmm yes
oO0Oo Resident: :)

szavanna Resident: like when I learned a japanese folk song
Zen Arado: but I use duolingo.com
szavanna Resident: from my friend Mayumi
szavanna Resident looks
Zen Arado: and I have to do exercises again if I get too many wrong
szavanna Resident: how is your Spanish Liz
Zen Arado: though I go to a class in SL
Eliza Madrigal: abysmal, Sza :)
szavanna Resident: can you translate that ?
Zen Arado: I do a bit every day
szavanna Resident: ;p
Zen Arado: takes self discipline
Eliza Madrigal: but I do entertain people when I make the attempt :)
Eliza Madrigal: spreading joy in my bafoonery
Zen Arado: little and often
szavanna Resident imagines Liz entertaining
szavanna Resident: ;o)
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
szavanna Resident: it's fun no?
oO0Oo Resident: Tengo la autodisciplina abismal
szavanna Resident: ;p
szavanna Resident: there we go °͜°

Zen Arado: yeh you have to have a sense of humour

Eliza Madrigal giggles wildly
szavanna Resident: when I was in Tunis
oO0Oo Resident: :)
szavanna Resident: I started learning French
szavanna Resident: and I knew 10 words
szavanna Resident: and I tried to say everything with those words
Zen Arado: :)
szavanna Resident: I didn't succeed
oO0Oo Resident: :)
szavanna Resident: but everyone went wild laughing
Eliza Madrigal smiles

oO0Oo Resident: like playing a limited musical instrument?
Zen Arado: Cem asks us about life
szavanna Resident: namely my friends from Comoros Islands
Zen Arado: weather etc
szavanna Resident: yes O
szavanna Resident: music is different I think

oO0Oo Resident: but the willingness to play, joins with laughter to make its own music.. yes?

Zen Arado: yes
szavanna Resident: °͜°
Zen Arado: I have never been fluent in another language
szavanna Resident: so you see - it's addictive
szavanna Resident: so I can't stop learning
Zen Arado: and would love to be
Eliza Madrigal: that reminds me of our conversations here - we're working actually, with a rather limited shared vocabulary, so the same themes and lines seem to come up a lot but there is more to it than that
szavanna Resident: true

szavanna Resident: i love how O has his way with words
szavanna Resident: brb
oO0Oo Resident: please say less.. I mean more
Eliza Madrigal: words have their way with O :)
oO0Oo Resident: ;)
Zen Arado: less IS more :)
oO0Oo Resident: hahaha
oO0Oo Resident: more or less
szavanna Resident: back
Eliza Madrigal: :)
oO0Oo Resident: wb

Zen Arado: better make dinner to get back for Original Face
oO0Oo Resident: musicji
szavanna Resident: I love what he said "that unsettles it"
szavanna Resident: lol
Zen Arado: and do French lesson somewhere in between
oO0Oo Resident: Bon apetite Zen
szavanna Resident: jo etvagyat Zenji
Eliza Madrigal: :) okay Zen, be well
szavanna Resident: °͜°
Zen Arado: au revoir a tous
szavanna Resident: a bientot papaaa
oO0Oo Resident smiles
szavanna Resident: I still have to read what Liz gave me
szavanna Resident: I was just babbling
Eliza Madrigal: :) enjoy the musica "babbling"
oO0Oo Resident: snap
szavanna Resident: ;))


szavanna Resident: I learned "snap" here at PaB
szavanna Resident: I never heard that before ...
oO0Oo Resident: me too
szavanna Resident: when 2 people say the same
szavanna Resident: °͜°
oO0Oo Resident: or have same thought.. same time
Eliza Madrigal: :) when I was a teen it was "jinx"
szavanna Resident: ah!
szavanna Resident: ok I heard that also


szavanna Resident: yesterday I saw a documentary
szavanna Resident: about the multiverse theory
szavanna Resident: if we have infinite universes
oO0Oo Resident listens
szavanna Resident: there will be very likely many LIz-s

--BELL--

szavanna Resident: and many O-s
szavanna Resident: because eventually there would be just so many combinations .......
szavanna Resident: and it said - may be there are other Earth-s even

oO0Oo Resident: so many that in some versions i am more you than me?
szavanna Resident: so it is not so strange to think the same thing
szavanna Resident: hehe
szavanna Resident: something like that
Eliza Madrigal: not at all strange really
oO0Oo Resident: me laughs

szavanna Resident: you know like some people are so surprised
oO0Oo Resident: no not in the least
szavanna Resident: "oh we must be soul sisters"
szavanna Resident: and I think ....this is natural
Eliza Madrigal: glimpse of something natural
szavanna Resident: hmm we are more similar than we think ... I think

oO0Oo Resident: soul/snap/jinxisters

szavanna Resident: ;p
szavanna Resident: when we chat with Liz ... often we find that we think similarly ....yet we never met ....
Eliza Madrigal: :) yet there are particular kinds of connections where it seems more apparent - strange parallels...
Eliza Madrigal: yes
szavanna Resident: and grew up so far from each other
szavanna Resident: which is great °͜° actually
Eliza Madrigal: there is a deeper mystery than multiple lives and universes and "timing"
szavanna Resident: hmm life is quite a thing
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: and funny patterns that arise in lives, like, I remember a period of time where all of my close friends had red hair, and their names began with J
Eliza Madrigal: hah
szavanna Resident: hehe
szavanna Resident: yes

szavanna Resident: hmm I must go °͜°
oO0Oo Resident: you too?!
Eliza Madrigal: OK
Eliza Madrigal giggles
szavanna Resident: but now I will ponder
oO0Oo Resident: aw
szavanna Resident: about all this
Eliza Madrigal: this was fun, ty
szavanna Resident: ;)) ty Liz always so nice to be here
oO0Oo Resident: yes thanks jijis
szavanna Resident: take care both
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
oO0Oo Resident: you too Sza
Eliza Madrigal: jijijijijij
szavanna Resident: waving from bottom of same planet
szavanna Resident: ;p
szavanna Resident: ♥ ♥ ♥
oO0Oo Resident: ♥ ❤ ♥ ❤ ♥