2009.11.04 19:00 - Chaos breaks out (again)

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

  Meeting had a late start, I sat quiety for the fist half alone. But at the half hour everyone began to arrive

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: I was just finishing up paracticing Tai Chi, my cat goes nuts when I do it in the house
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: loves my feet and purrs like crazy
Pila Mulligan: actually that could make a nice practice element
Pila Mulligan: cat at feet
stevenaia Michinaga: cats must love chi
Pila Mulligan: could be
stevenaia Michinaga: no, more of a tripping hazard
Pila Mulligan: that's the practice part
stevenaia Michinaga: obsolutely
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: moving gracefully through cat obstacles may be worse than sparring with Jet Li
stevenaia Michinaga: :) I'd like to belive everyone is traveling to Princeton andso they are not here
Pila Mulligan: well, some are no doubt
Pila Mulligan: and they plan to be here tomorrow I saw
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: or earlier, rather
stevenaia Michinaga: tomarrow or Friday?
Pila Mulligan: Friday and Saturday
Pila Mulligan: "November 6 and 7, many of us at the retreat will join the 1 pm SLT PaB sessions"
stevenaia Michinaga: I will meet up with them on Saturday
Pila Mulligan: does your tai chi class do push hands
Pila Mulligan: ?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Pila Mulligan: ah, nice
stevenaia Michinaga: you mean with a partner?
Pila Mulligan: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: reminds me of PaB Conversations a bit
Pila Mulligan: I did a very little at the start, then stopped -- I always wished I'd had more of it
Pila Mulligan: yes, it is a teaching expereince in itself
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, two people dropping the lead
stevenaia Michinaga: like a human Oeji board
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: or however you spell it
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pila Mulligan: there was a Chinese traditionof the flying pen -- a smiilar kind of remotely guided writing insturment
stevenaia Michinaga: it is truely amazing how much the east and the west differ
Pila Mulligan: the older traditions of the east seem to be closer to the surgface still, than in the west
Pila Mulligan: in practice at least
stevenaia Michinaga: I was thinking the opposite, that they were deeper and more subltle
Pila Mulligan: technology seems ot change rapidly enought that technology based societies play cathc-up with it
Pila Mulligan: the east is deepr and more subtle you mean?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Pila Mulligan: yes, and I meant the west used to have those also
Pila Mulligan: but they got buried in history
stevenaia Michinaga: like the secret socities?
Pila Mulligan: and the industrial revoltuoinwas the whiped cream
Pila Mulligan: well, all of the metaphysical sciences too
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Pila Mulligan: Celtic lore may have survivied well enough
Pila Mulligan: but in other cultures the same type stuff is harder to find
stevenaia Michinaga: tough to think the "next thing" is not 5000 years old
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Zephir
Pila Mulligan: hi Zeph
stevenaia Michinaga: care to join us?
stevenaia Michinaga: aww, the wold changes
stevenaia Michinaga: worls
stevenaia Michinaga: d
Zephir Eclipse: I can see that.
Zephir Eclipse: I just wanted to see if it made it at all. I can see not.
Zephir Eclipse: This is a better setting anyways.
stevenaia Michinaga: we record our conversations here, can we include yours?
Zephir Eclipse: Of course!
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
Zephir Eclipse: Record it for what?
Pila Mulligan: just chat logs, not a big deal
Pila Mulligan: posterity :)
Zephir Eclipse: I see.
stevenaia Michinaga: here is a not card of what we are about
Zephir Eclipse: OKie.
stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to join us anytime
Zephir Eclipse: Okie*
Pila Mulligan: more accurately, there's a usually 2-10 of a larger gorup of several dozen people attending one fo the four daily sessiosn here
Pila Mulligan: the logs let thos einterestd see what happened when they miss one
Zephir Eclipse: I would love to sometime. I now know I have your landmark. Lol. And like I said you guy have really made a peaceful place out of somewhere where the old strip club I worked at was.
Zephir Eclipse: Kudos to you.
Pila Mulligan: this was a strip club
Pila Mulligan: how nice
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: it wasn't a takeover, belive me
Zephir Eclipse: *giggles.*
--BELL--
Zephir Eclipse: It wasn't a very good one, as I see.
Pila Mulligan: [there is a traidtion here of having 90 second silences every 15 minutes]
Zephir Eclipse: Well I'll you guys get back to work. It was good meeting you.
Pila Mulligan: by Zeph, good luck with your searvh
stevenaia Michinaga: nice meeting you
Zephir Eclipse: Same to the both of you handsome gents.
stevenaia Michinaga: wink
Zephir Eclipse: *smiles sweetly and bows out.*
Pila Mulligan: bye
Pila Mulligan: hmm, Play as Lap Dance
stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect more Play as Pole dance
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I;m looking forward to Saturday
Pila Mulligan: regardng ...
stevenaia Michinaga: always interesting to see people in RL
Pila Mulligan: oh, of course
Pila Mulligan: youll be in Princeton then
Pila Mulligan: hello Bene
stevenaia Michinaga: the moment of tranformation from SL name to RL name
Benedizione Vita: hello all
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Bene
Pila Mulligan: so fAR ALL i'VE HEARD SUGGESTS IT I SNOT A GREAT LEAP
Pila Mulligan: oops
Pila Mulligan: pardons the caps please
Pila Mulligan: gi Fox
stevenaia Michinaga: no, just a special 9 second transition
Pila Mulligan: hi*
stevenaia Michinaga: hello fox
Pila Mulligan: how are you?
Fox Monacular: Hello Pila, Steve, Benedizione
Fox Monacular: I'm fine, thanks, how are you?
Pila Mulligan: fine also, thanks
stevenaia Michinaga: good
Pila Mulligan: Steve just mentioned his looking forward to seeing everyone in Princeton
Fox Monacular: sorry I wasn't there on Monday night, Steve, I grabbed the log and left because of the family gathering
Fox Monacular: oh, lucky you, Steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: n.p. it was interesting having the missed the guardian, was that the , Arch Mary evening :), not that was mine on sunday night
Pila Mulligan: kudos to you for that one, too
Pila Mulligan: every refereee sports events, Steve?
stevenaia Michinaga: some evenings here get quite interesting
Pila Mulligan: you could handle a roller derby
Pila Mulligan: as referee
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: yeah, I saw some of it briefly...:)
stevenaia Michinaga: even from here watching the blood pressure rising gets interesting
Pila Mulligan: this is what seems to me to be an instance of applying PAB/Kira ideas to real life - not as to individuals, but as to contentious situations
stevenaia Michinaga: I simply don't understand why people put so much into positioning and posturing
Pila Mulligan: that type of situation is inevitable
Pila Mulligan: sometimes
Fox Monacular: yes, I agree with Pila, I think you handled in really well!
Fox Monacular: me neither, I don't quite understand...
Pila Mulligan: SophiaSharon has in several recent logs stated her own perceptionof how ego separates people physically -- it has been quite profounly stated too, and a valuabel insisght
stevenaia Michinaga: and avoiding their true 'selves" instead of celibrating what one is
stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
Fox Monacular: interesting... it seems that to be able to celebrate the true 'self' one has to apply a lot of effort:) to get rid of that huge ego that always gets in the way
stevenaia Michinaga: it will be interesting to meet her
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, the importance of dropping that which you grasp so strongly
Pila Mulligan: one thing is obvious, the usual PaB sessions are veritable meccas of polite and freindly gatherings
Pila Mulligan: we get spoiled by them to a degree
Pila Mulligan: inuslated form the more contentious gatherings life has to offer
Fox Monacular: so I guess first one should decide to start doing it, to see some value in it... otherwise these things don't necessarily arise spontaneously
stevenaia Michinaga: not spoiled, I think it;s applicable everywhere
Fox Monacular: it is true, Pila! in a way we are spoiled, because when these situations arise, it is like we are forced to re-discover some things about people...:)
Pila Mulligan: we are compelled to rememeber that all is nort always polite and freindly
Fox Monacular: but it should be applicable everywhere, for sure!
Pila Mulligan: yes, it should
Pila Mulligan: ideally
Pila Mulligan: but ...
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: contentious, offensive and disruptive moments seem to inexorably follow the idea of the ego-compelled sense of physical separation
Pila Mulligan: not contiunaly, but predcitably
Pila Mulligan: occasionally )
Pila Mulligan: welcome back Fox
Fox Monacular: sorry about that... router playing tricks on me
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I see it much in what I do... work with contractors, there are some that yell and scream to get things done, there are others that jsut do what needs to be done, no blame, jsut forward motion, then there are others that just drink
Pila Mulligan: the electron gremlin
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Eden
Pila Mulligan: yes, Steve, the construction industry certainly has a edgy element to it
Eden Haiku: This way Aztlan.
Pila Mulligan: part of the game it seems
Pila Mulligan: hi Eden
Fox Monacular: hello Eden, Aztlan
Fox Monacular: nice to meet you
Aztlan Foss: hi fox
Pila Mulligan: edgy energy, like the constant banter between carpenters
Benedizione Vita: hello aztlan, eden, and fox
Benedizione Vita: nice suit, aztlan
Aztlan Foss: thank you
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Aztlan, have you been here before?
Eden Haiku: Hi Fox. I beleive y ou are from Montreal also?
Aztlan Foss: first time here
Fox Monacular: yes, are you here as well?
Eden Haiku: yes , I am.
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: fantastique
Pila Mulligan: bon soir
stevenaia Michinaga: we record our conversations here and post them to our Wiki, is it ok to inlcuse you?
Eden Haiku: HI Benedizione. What a blessed name!
stevenaia Michinaga: include
Eden Haiku: Pila, nice to see you again;-)
Pila Mulligan: hi Eden, yes same here
Eden Haiku: Stvenaia. I had not seen you yet, sorry ;-)
stevenaia Michinaga: Aztlan?
Pila Mulligan: ah, symmetry :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Benedizione Vita: thank you eden, though of course you were speaking factually ;)
Benedizione Vita: oh my, I love montreal
Eden Haiku: Symmetry would be a nice discussion subject.;-)
Aztlan Foss: yes you can use my text
Aztlan Foss: I was just reading the notecard
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, my spouse went to college there and travel there yearly for the Jazz Fest
Eden Haiku: HI Mathieu.
stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
Pila Mulligan: Wol (one of the regulars here) loves to try to make the seating pattern symmetrical (an architects joy, I suppose)
Fox Monacular: nice, we should all get together for another mini retreat here
Aztlan Foss: was I supposed to do micromeditations during my day?
Fox Monacular: in Montreal, I mean

Benedizione changes seating position

Benedizione Vita: spontaneous symmetry breaking ;)
stevenaia Michinaga: entropy
Pila Mulligan: an architect's 'nemisis perhaps :)
Benedizione Vita: why am I levitating?
Eden Haiku: Soory, this Matjieu was from MacIntoshers users chat I think ;-) I am confusing messages...
Benedizione Vita: or an arch-architect ;)
Fox Monacular: you're levitating because you upset the god of symmetry
Pila Mulligan: Wol is giving you anit-gavity energy
Benedizione Vita: hahaha
Eden Haiku: Yes, you are. ! Whant an evoloved being!
Eden Haiku: Just like «Foudre Bénie» in Tintin.
Benedizione Vita: eve-loved--that is quite a slip :)
Fox Monacular: hehe:)
Benedizione Vita: welcome to the dark side pila :)
Pila Mulligan: this could easily becoema game -- symmetry vs anti-symmetry
Fox Monacular: no, actually Pila just made it symmetrical again
Aztlan Foss: there's sides?

People moving positions everywhere

Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: oops
Fox Monacular: oh no
Fox Monacular: chaos
Pila Mulligan: :)
Benedizione Vita: I would move, but I am afraid I will stop levitating hahahaha
Aztlan Foss: does symetry mean you have two of something?
Pila Mulligan: more fun to float
stevenaia Michinaga: breaks out spontainiously
Pila Mulligan: just a seating pattern with a formula
Pila Mulligan: 3-2-3-2 or such
Benedizione Vita: symmetry means something looks the same after some kind of change is applied to it
Fox Monacular: what does it mean for you to sit on the outside (hehe)
Benedizione Vita: so you can have rotational, reflection, etc.
Eden Haiku: Two parts or sides, I suppose. Or more. Two at least...
stevenaia Michinaga: giggles
Pila Mulligan: Steve is posing a probem fot he symmetrists
Benedizione Vita: not necessarily--a sphere has infinitely many symmetries
Benedizione Vita: (well, depending on how you define a unique symmetry)
Eden Haiku: Aztlan, in a few minutes a bell will ring. Then we stop chatting for 90 seconds. Just observing.
Pila Mulligan: a silence to balance the playing
Eden Haiku: Beautiful!
Eden Haiku: I can't find my glasses...
Pila Mulligan: but not yet :)
Aztlan Foss: oh ok I get it, observing or meditating?
Pila Mulligan: kind of yes
Eden Haiku: Kind of both...
--BELL--
Aztlan Foss: I need to get a meditation book, I've never had much luck just trying the basics and no guidance
Eden Haiku: Here is a good place to learn Aztlan.
Pila Mulligan: one of the funnest playing things here is a kind of jungle dance script -- would you like to try it?

onigokko breaks out in mass

Aztlan Foss: yeah
Eden Haiku: yes!
Pila Mulligan: if you click that script and selcet wear -- we can dance
Fox Monacular: yes!
Pila Mulligan: Steve -- ready?
Fox Monacular: :)
Eden Haiku: Where do we click?
Pila Mulligan: be sure your speakers are on also
Benedizione Vita: how does it work?
stevenaia Michinaga: I need to find mine
Pila Mulligan: clcik on the script and then select wear
stevenaia Michinaga: name pls
Fox Monacular: you have to right click and select wear
Fox Monacular: in your recent items
Benedizione Vita: yes, I have a little tail
Benedizione Vita: but nothing happens
Pila Mulligan: onigokko
Pila Mulligan: let's stop for Steve
Pila Mulligan: stop
Pila Mulligan: onigokko
Aztlan Foss: haha
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
Benedizione Vita: stop
Benedizione Vita: onigokko
Benedizione Vita: stop
Benedizione Vita: onigokko
Benedizione Vita: stop
Benedizione Vita: onigokko
Pila Mulligan: :)
Benedizione Vita: hahahah I love this :)
Benedizione Vita: stop onigokko
Fox Monacular: hehe, i lost my skirt
Benedizione Vita: stop onigokko stop stop onigokko
Aztlan Foss: hehehe
Pila Mulligan: script was faster than the prims Fox :)
Pila Mulligan: stop
Benedizione Vita: stop stop stop onigokko stop onigokkko stop
Pila Mulligan: isn;t that fun :)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Benedizione Vita: onigokko
Eden Haiku: It made my day!
Benedizione Vita: stop
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
Benedizione Vita: wow, that is amazing :)
Aztlan Foss: lol
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: one of the regulars here made that script,I beleive
stevenaia Michinaga: give meditation a whole new sense
Fox Monacular: hi snoopy
Benedizione Vita: fuego!
Pila Mulligan: it almsot feels like real exercise
Pila Mulligan: oh, very colorful
Fox Monacular: wow
Eden Haiku: This is how good I feel after this little dance!
Aztlan Foss: her mind is exploding with ideas
Eden Haiku: ;-)
stevenaia Michinaga: unfortunately I must go,
Eden Haiku: An amazing experience Pila, thank you so much.
stevenaia Michinaga: but thanks for a very happy Wednesday
Aztlan Foss: take care steve
Fox Monacular: good night Stece
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
Benedizione Vita: onigokko
Fox Monacular: Steve
Eden Haiku: Bye Steve, nice seeing you!
Pila Mulligan: no escape
Fox Monacular: stop
Eden Haiku: Burning life!
Benedizione Vita: ooh, that's nice fox
Eden Haiku: Fox you are spectacular!
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: yes, I'm from Moscow
Fox Monacular: moved to Montreal 10 years ago
Fox Monacular: Doug also sent me a link.. the thing is I don't have a tv... so I'm usually behind in news:)
Fox Monacular: yes, it did
Benedizione Vita: 11:11--time for a rest :)
Benedizione Vita: goodnight, all
Fox Monacular: :)

I depart and the conversation continues 

Pila Mulligan: really
Pila Mulligan: hot blessing and psetactular fox
Eden Haiku: This is absolutely beautiful. I read on the log you are originally from Russi aren't you Fox?
Eden Haiku: *Russia
Fox Monacular: yes, I'm from Moscow
Fox Monacular: moved to Montreal 10 years ago
Eden Haiku: I just saw Gorbachev on the News. Talking about Novemebr 9th 1989.
Fox Monacular: Doug also sent me a link.. the thing is I don't have a tv... so I'm usually behind in news:)
Eden Haiku: When he made that decision not to intervene when the East Germans broke through the wall.
Eden Haiku: It changed everything.
Fox Monacular: yes, it did
Eden Haiku: You have Sl, so you are totally connected!
Benedizione Vita: 11:11--time for a rest :)
Benedizione Vita: goodnight, all
Aztlan Foss: good night benedizione
Eden Haiku: Good nite Benedizione!
Fox Monacular: :)
Eden Haiku: Pila, is there a Play as Being group?
Fox Monacular: it's really quite amazing... the connection today... I was showing SL to my grandfather a couple of days ago...
Pila Mulligan: kind of, but iti not really like a usual SLgroup
Pila Mulligan: it isomstly people being here
Eden Haiku: Oh I see..
Pila Mulligan: at the sessions
Aztlan Foss: the berlin wall is interesting, I wonder what else could change for the better if people would just agree on it?
Eden Haiku: I should show SL to my Dad.
Pila Mulligan: :0
Pila Mulligan: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gwWTO_BvBYEAKmMbwniNbCksuj5g
Eden Haiku: Yes. It takes only a drop of courage or vision and things can transfor isn'it ?
Fox Monacular: thanks, Pila, I was just reading thi sone too:))
--BELL--
Aztlan Foss: there should be a collection of ideas out there like that, could be a wish list
Aztlan Foss: they can start with "It would be cool if...."
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: #1 peace
Aztlan Foss: that one's hard, though.
Pila Mulligan: that's why it is #1 :)
Aztlan Foss: I've heard arguments between people who agree with each other
Aztlan Foss: they'll agree on everything except how they are sying it
Pila Mulligan: yes, play as arguing
Pila Mulligan: until it gets sour
Aztlan Foss: that WOULD be cool
Pila Mulligan: #2 love
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: if #2 happens, wouldn't #1 follow?
Pila Mulligan: yep, they go hand in hand
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: wu wei
Pila Mulligan: yes, stuillnes sis opeaceful, Az
Fox Monacular: yes, and by being
Fox Monacular: there must be some evolutionary survival insentive for ego...
Fox Monacular: so we have to work hard now to counteract it
Fox Monacular: yes:)
Fox Monacular: it's scary
Fox Monacular: to let go
Fox Monacular: I'm still looking for a guru:)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Aztlan Foss: what was it like Eden?
Fox Monacular: I have my ego all ready on a plate... but noone to give it to yet
Fox Monacular: in your guru in Montreal, Eden?
Eden Haiku: Eden, it was like the garden of Eden in her ashram. But then...we were casted out of Eden...
Pila Mulligan: ego probably persists depsite out best efforts to tame it
Eden Haiku: No, she was in India.
Pila Mulligan: so living with it instead of in it may help
Fox Monacular: cool
Eden Haiku: I find this place a very cool ashram.
Fox Monacular: yes, like me and my ego, we decided:)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Aztlan Foss: hehehe
Fox Monacular: I guess you have to consult your ego once in a while:)
Eden Haiku: This garden here, with the gardenias. Pixel gardenias but they remind me the smell of Indian gardenias.
Pila Mulligan: but now me ego is egging me to ask Eden what ashram i India :)
Pila Mulligan: not that I am aksing ...
Eden Haiku: I cannot reveal that Pila. Not on record.
Pila Mulligan: ok
Eden Haiku: I could IM you about it or we could discuss it somewhere else,
Eden Haiku: I'm still in a state of fear.
Fox Monacular: oh, this is so interesting!
Pila Mulligan: would you like to tell alittle of the 'kicked out' part?
Pila Mulligan: anonymously
Eden Haiku: With you Fox, I could discuss it in RL if you want, in a downtown cafe or something.
Pila Mulligan: again, no need to doso
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: would be great!
Pila Mulligan: cool
Pila Mulligan: SL -> RL
Eden Haiku: No no, there was no kicked out.That was a metaphore. I grew out of find. Delusions dispelled.
Pila Mulligan: ahh
Pila Mulligan: better
Pila Mulligan: growing out of is better than kicked anyhting
Eden Haiku: Yes, I still have pictures of my guru, even if I'm supposed to be detached...
Pila Mulligan: I have my high school yearbook
Eden Haiku: Thats the same thing, almost. Really.
Fox Monacular: I dream about my first love :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: expereince is
Eden Haiku: It would be cool if memories would not hurt.
Pila Mulligan: the expereince hurt
Pila Mulligan: memory is close but not exactly the same
Pila Mulligan: eventually it may not hurt
Fox Monacular: i think it's good that it hurts sometimes
Eden Haiku: It would be could if we would never experince pain.
Eden Haiku: It would not be human, though. I rather be human ;-)
Aztlan Foss: to be human is to be in pain?
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: after my first retreat i came home thinking "this is not for me, I don't want to be detached" :)
Fox Monacular: later I realized it's not necessarily detached:)
Fox Monacular: oups sorry
Pila Mulligan: (oh, by the way, you may want to unclick 'wear' on the dance script (in invenotry) as it puts a little tail on your avi to show it is ready to dance when you are wearing it)
Eden Haiku: The Tibetans say we cannot reach nirvana through any other realm than the human one.
Pila Mulligan: heaven on earth
Eden Haiku: Thnaks about the tail Pila ...
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: shambala
Pila Mulligan: I wonder if that exclude elephant nirvana?
Aztlan Foss: hehehe
Fox Monacular: mu!
Eden Haiku: Mu...Th eIsle of MU, yes..
Eden Haiku: You look like some deity from MU in your fiery self Fox.
Fox Monacular: :) I mean if dogs have buddha nature, than elephants do too
Pila Mulligan: yes, and gardenias, maybe
Eden Haiku: You doubt that to be in pain is being human Aztlan?
Aztlan Foss: yes
Aztlan Foss: I don't think pain is necessary
Eden Haiku: I guess you are not catholic then...;-)
Aztlan Foss: and I don't believe we must know pain to know happiness
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: perhaps it is not so much about pain as it is about experiencing fully
Eden Haiku: I wonder.
Fox Monacular: and recpgnising suffering
Aztlan Foss: hehehe, nope. I think it's a strange to look at the world through pain
Pila Mulligan: pain = sufferng , eh?
Aztlan Foss: I know pain exists, but I don't think it's necessary
Eden Haiku: You are on the way to something here Aztlan. Go on...
Fox Monacular: i guess so...
Fox Monacular: sometimes pain is necessary.... like when you give birth, for instance
Pila Mulligan: and after transcending suffering didn't Buddha add compassion
Pila Mulligan: compassion for the suffering
Fox Monacular: right, yes
Eden Haiku: You are challenging my beliefs but I can see a bit of light in the darkness of mu tunnel-vision here
Aztlan Foss: yeah I think he put him self through a lot of pain and eventually decided that's not the way to nirvana
Aztlan Foss: or enlightenment
Fox Monacular: no, perhaps self-flagellation is not hte way
Eden Haiku: Yes, after starving himself, Buddha ate a grain of rice
Eden Haiku: That is when he was enlightened.
Aztlan Foss: well take the duality of "you have to suffer to know what happiness is", but you can be extreamly happy even if you've never known extreme pain
Aztlan Foss: you can feel warm and comfortable with out ever suffering through a blizard
Fox Monacular: but pain is an integral part of how we are in this world... from the moment of birth, through all the rites of passage... and then to the moment of illness or death...
Fox Monacular: I agree with this, Az
Eden Haiku: That would be cool if pain would disappear from our programming, would be erased.
Aztlan Foss: you can feel loved by someone even if you've never been abused by someone
Fox Monacular: yes, I guess these things are not necessarily semiotic
Aztlan Foss: but I guess pain helps us correct our actions
Eden Haiku: The technic of EMDR in psychology does ERASE the pianful memories. They desintegrate. Has any of you experienced EMDR?
Aztlan Foss: which makes it basicly the main consequence of our actions, pain.
Eden Haiku: *painful
Aztlan Foss: so, if you eliminate pain, you eliminate consequences and you have your limtless self.
Fox Monacular: I guess for me a powerful realization of suffering was giving birth... without anesthetics... so I felt that this is important that life begins like this... and compassion follows kind of naturally out of such an experience
Aztlan Foss: I don't know what EMDR is :(
Eden Haiku: Your limitless self back, probably.
Aztlan Foss: I saw a good movies about memories though. Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind.
Fox Monacular: eye movement desentisation?
Fox Monacular: I thought it didn't really work...:)
Pila Mulligan: googling
Eden Haiku: That is yes: for post-traumatic stress. A treatment,
Eden Haiku: Well, I did something like 40 or 50 hours of it. It really helped.
Aztlan Foss: what did you go through that was so bad?
Fox Monacular: isn't the rationale for it REM-sleep related nightmares... adn that through EMDR they 'recreate' REM sleep in waking without negative stuff?
Eden Haiku: That is not the point ;-)
Eden Haiku: For me, it is more the love of the healers than their technique which was decisive.
Fox Monacular: did it change your dreams? Eden? I'm really curious, because w eare very interested in ptsd in the lab where I work
Aztlan Foss: you know sometimes people just need to be able to let their mind go in a supportive environment to really heal
Eden Haiku: I don't really know if it changed my dreams...
Aztlan Foss: you can't do it on your own because you need others to validate reality for you
Eden Haiku: Yes, I think it is very trye Aztlan.
Aztlan Foss: but, if you're free in your mind in the presense of others, it validates your own world.
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: EMDR, that's an interesting therapy (reading abuot it on wiki) -- I'd never heard of it before -- and no doubt love heals (I'd heard of it before:)
Eden Haiku: This symmetric quadrant of a circe is very powerfully healing for me tonite;-) Thanks!
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eden Haiku: *circle
Pila Mulligan: I bet eye exercise can relieve stress to some degree
Fox Monacular: yes, Eden, it's not that I don't believe in EMDR, on the contrary, I'm really curious!
Pila Mulligan: eye muscles being so sensitive
Eden Haiku: I'n not adverstising EMDR...;-) I just pointed out to the fact that pain CAN vanish.
Fox Monacular: amazing...
Fox Monacular: you know, they do it for treatment of nightmares too
Eden Haiku: It would be cool if we could talk all nite long ...
Fox Monacular: yes:)
Aztlan Foss: you know, I was just thinking, we tend to think linearly in time
Aztlan Foss: so we have the past and the future and our memories are the past
Eden Haiku: Yes?
Aztlan Foss: but realy, everything is only happening right now
Eden Haiku: That is so true.
Aztlan Foss: our memories are as good as being our imagination
Pila Mulligan: here's another interesting news article on a shallow breathing therpay for asthma -- http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/health/03brod.html
Fox Monacular: yes, and the same brain regions light up when we imagine future as when we remember past
Eden Haiku: really?
Aztlan Foss: so, if you exist only now, and you experience all your past pains and gains and thrills, and all your future ambitions and success, what do you end up with now?
Fox Monacular: yes, there are studies now showing it
Eden Haiku: Same regions of the brain for past and future? Both virtual I guess...
Eden Haiku: You get dizzy...
Aztlan Foss: hahahahaha
Fox Monacular: yes, exactly:)
Eden Haiku: ;-)
Fox Monacular: remembering is an active process that happens in present
Aztlan Foss: there's a saying that says you're the accumulation of everything you've thought up to now.
Fox Monacular: your memory of an event depends on your current state a lot
Aztlan Foss: I think what you end up with is YOU
Pila Mulligan: memory = imagining at some level, then
Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
Aztlan Foss: which, if you realy think about it, you know everything about, which makes it reletively normal
Fox Monacular: which goes against an idea that we 'store' memories in the brain, like an archive
Pila Mulligan: so expereince can become memory, affected by imagination
Eden Haiku: It would be cool if we would know how to live in the now right now.
Aztlan Foss: yeah I don't see how we can store memories like an archive
Aztlan Foss: I remember when I was a little kid I thought "wow, when I'm 20 years old I'll be OOOOOOOLD!"
Fox Monacular: or perhaps, memory is a dynamic process that evolves over time with an individual
Aztlan Foss: and it seemed like FOR EVER!
Eden Haiku: Memory works like an hologram. A little shred of our barin contains all.
Eden Haiku: *brain
Aztlan Foss: now I see my nieces and nephews and I'm thinking the're growing up lightning fast, but to them it's a slower process
Fox Monacular: yes, it is so true... time feels very different
Fox Monacular: like in childhood - summer vacation is a huge thing! now it's like...ok, only one summer,goes by really fast:)
Eden Haiku: My father is 85 and he seems like running in time. Happily but running so fast.
Fox Monacular: ok, I really should go sleep... :) baby wakes up in 6 hours!
Pila Mulligan: g'nit Fox
Aztlan Foss: night Fox!
Fox Monacular: thanks for great conversation
Pila Mulligan: yes, thank you too
Eden Haiku: Good nite Fox Was really nice talking with you! sweet dreams!
Fox Monacular: good evening, Pila, nice to meet you Eden and Aztlan
Aztlan Foss: nie meeting you too
Pila Mulligan will slip away also
Fox Monacular: :)
Aztlan Foss: bye Pila
Pila Mulligan: bye for now :)
Eden Haiku: Me too..Bye Pila.