2009.11.16 13:00 - Metaphors, death and pomposity

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind, standing in for Stim Morane. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Checking last week's session with Stim at the helm, one titled "Intuition", I wondered if there was any natural carry-over to this week. Qt elaborates, and mentions a technical metaphor he uses for intuition.

Qt Core: Hi Storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi Qt
Storm Nordwind: This is normally Stim's slot, but he cannot get a reliable connection today
Storm Nordwind: So I will take over for him
Qt Core: ok
Storm Nordwind: Last week at this time, I think the subject was "Intuition"
Qt Core: don't remember when but remember the topic, its nature and ven its existence
Storm Nordwind smiles
Storm Nordwind: Do you remember whether there were any unanswered questions arising from the discussion? Or linked topics of interest?
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Good afternoon Solo
Qt Core: hi solo
Solobill Laville: Hiya, Storm, QT! :)
Storm Nordwind: I'm pretending to be Stim today
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: You don't look much like him, but I'll pretend... ;)
Storm Nordwind: You can impute Stim onto my impure aggregates if you like! ;)
Qt Core: well, the two most opposite position went away each one still firm in their idea, existence and inexistence of intuition
Solobill Laville: hehe
Pema Pera: Hi Solo and Storm and Qt!
Storm Nordwind: Welcome Pema!
Solobill Laville: Hi, Pema :)
Qt Core: Hi Pema
Storm Nordwind: I see Qt. I'll take the middle way: pragmatism. If it's useful and reasonably predicatble, then it doesn't matter what I call it, I'll use it!
Pema Pera: Hi again, Calvino!
Qt Core: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Hi there
Storm Nordwind: Hi Calvino
Qt Core: hi Calvino
Solobill Laville: Greetings, Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: good to see you all
Storm Nordwind: You too! Stim's connection is flaky today so I'll take the log
Qt Core: my position is still the same intuition is the result of background/parallel thread of thought we are not aware of
Qt Core: that is until 6th,7th and 8th sense are proved ;-)
Solobill Laville: Hmm...can you go on about parallel thread of thought, QT?
Qt Core: i think we/i are/am not aware of most brain activity, and taking someting from COntact i think having a thought a time is a waste of resources ;-)
Pema Pera sneaking out for a quick cup of tea, brb)
Solobill Laville: OK, thx, so it is a matter of our brains silent work :)
Qt Core: yes, i always use terminology taken from my job as a programmer and call it background jobs
Solobill Laville nods and smiles
Calvino Rabeni: :) snuck my own tea simultaneously
Storm Nordwind: To use your terminology Qt, is it possible to control the background task? Or to influence it in your view? Or is it free-running?
Storm Nordwind: Hi Yak!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Solobill Laville: Hiya, Yak :)
Qt Core: a little influence can be given just rolling some words/idea on your own mind
Storm Nordwind: So some kind of meditation?
Qt Core: but not a specific "order"
Qt Core: hi yak
Pema Pera: (back)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi scath
Qt Core: don't know i never really tried meditation
Pema Pera: Hi Yaku and Scath!
Solobill Laville: Hello, Scath :)
Pema Pera: Hi Wester!
Storm Nordwind: Hi Scáth
Qt Core: but then , isn't meditation a conscious things, this intuition isn't
Qt Core: hi scath
Solobill Laville: Hi, Wester :)
Storm Nordwind: Would you not say that the 9 second PaB practice is a kind of meditation Qt?
Solobill Laville: (seat between me and Storm is open, Scath) :)
Qt Core: yes, i was thinking about more formal (and long) types
Scathach Rhiadra: if I could just see you solo:)
Solobill Laville: (ah, sorry)
Qt Core: got it !
Qt Core: ;-)
Scathach Rhiadra: ah:), can see now:)

Qt tells us of a vivid experience he had regarding intuition.

Qt Core: i still remember my best episode of this kind of intuition ... more than 20 years after it happened ;-)
Solobill Laville listens
Storm Nordwind: Oh? :)
Wester Kiranov: tell us
--BELL--
Qt Core: 2nd year of secondary school (about 14/15 then)
Calvino Rabeni: Qt I have a metaphor for you. Mindfulness is like a computer bus. You plug in many separate processing units.
Pema Pera: Hi Cal!
Qt Core: i was having trouble with some math concept and was quite angry about that
Caledonia Heron: hi :)
Qt Core: hi cal
Solobill Laville: Hi Cal! :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Cal:)
Storm Nordwind waves
Qt Core: so i went out to my volleyball lesson a little early and then, alone in the gym i almost saw the pieces coming togheter and a great peace of mind
Qt Core: the next written test was a huge success too!
Qt Core: it was a changing point in my math understanding
Pema Pera: isn't it amazing how our mind can process in that way!
Solobill Laville: Was there anything that triggered it do you think?
Qt Core: i almost think mi mind rewired itself a little that day
Wester Kiranov: did it change anything else?
Qt Core: interesting metaphor calvino
Wester Kiranov: not that this isn't enough ;)
Solobill Laville wonders of the relationship between intuition and creativity...and getting our of our own way
Qt Core: mmm, that was the months i first got my hand on a computer, don't remember the exact relative posistion in time of those two episode

Qt comments on the Calvino's continuation of his technical metaphor.

Qt Core: for your metaphor calvino i'm doubting if adding input peripherals and motherboard health sensors would be a better one
Pema Pera: hi Eden!
Wester Kiranov: hi eden
Calvino Rabeni: the brain isnt a sequential device, so perhaps that makes sense. What did you mean>?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eden
Solobill Laville: Hi, Eden
Eden Haiku: hello!
Qt Core: considering mind/brain power to be constant an increased awareness would be due to more imputs (why i flle like Johnny 5 ?)
Qt Core: file=feel
Calvino Rabeni: well in that analogy perhaps the programming could be improved to make better use of the "power"
Qt Core: sure!
Calvino Rabeni: Its still a dicey analogy because it doesn't consider quality of information issues.
--BELL--
Qt Core: hi Arch
Solobill Laville: Hi, Arch
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello arch
Wester Kiranov: hi arch
Pema Pera: hi Arch!
Pema Pera: Calvino, Wol and I had two "theme sessions" last month on using computer debugging as a metaphor for spiritual practice: see http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...e_as_debugging and http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...ng%2c_part_two
Calvino Rabeni: ty

The conversation fizzles out and we all just sit, the silence punctuated only by fidgeting!

Archmage Atlantis: To sit in the center is to be
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi arch
Archmage Atlantis: All sit here
Archmage Atlantis: Sorry, difficult dreams in sleep
Archmage Atlantis: Nead to reorient
Archmage Atlantis: Go ahead with the conversation, I appreciate that you allow me to be here
Pema Pera: I guess we're all in a quiet mood, Arch :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Solobill Laville smiles at Arch

Calvino asks a question about the chat logging. This seems to act as a magical invocation, as Wol appears out of thin air!

Calvino Rabeni: May I ask, who wrote the chat log tagging guidelines,and is that an active initiative?
Pema Pera: I think that was done a year ago, don't remember anymore by whom
Solobill Laville: I think it was Wol, yes?
Wester Kiranov: hi wol
Pema Pera: ha Wol, we're talking about ya!
Wol Euler: oops
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Wol Euler: shall I leave?
Pema Pera: nonono
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Solobill Laville: hehe, it was me....!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello wol
Eden Haiku: Hi Wol!
Solobill Laville: All good, I assure you!
Qt Core: hi wol
Pema Pera: [13:37] Calvino Rabeni: May I ask, who wrote the chat log tagging guidelines,and is that an active initiative? [13:38] Wol Euler is Online [13:38] Pema Pera: I think that was done a year ago, don't remember anymore by whom [13:38] Solobill Laville: I think it was Wol, yes?
Storm Nordwind: Staple her feet to the pavilion floor, quick!
Pema Pera: calling spirits from the deep . . . .
Wol Euler laughs
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi wol good night everyone
Wol Euler: no, I wasn't the original author. I amended and updated what I found there
Solobill Laville: Bye, Yak
Wol Euler: 'night yaku
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Yakuzza
Wester Kiranov: bye yaku
Qt Core: 'night Yaku

Solo wonders about the usefulness in spiritual practice of a technical metaphor.

Solobill Laville: Well, with Wol here now, would the two of you consider the computer debugging
Solobill Laville: metaphor a good one in terms of spiritual practice?
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: in an applied way
Pema Pera: for debugging one's day-to-day life
Solobill Laville: ah
Pema Pera: not as an attempt to analyze -- that's different
Wol Euler: yes, I would agree. It's an analogy, an attempt at a description in a mirror :)
Wol Euler: not a prescription of an actual activity
Solobill Laville thinks he has too many programs that run at start-up ;)
Qt Core: just a disposition of mind
Pema Pera: like repairing a car: when something is wrong you "wiggle the wires" to find out where the problem lies
Wol Euler: :)

Wester comments on the equivocation!

Wester Kiranov: A yes-and-no answer. who would have guessed ;)
Wol Euler: :-P
Pema Pera: :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wol Euler: the older I get, the more questions seem to me to be truthfully answerable that way
Pema Pera: so death is the ultimate yes and no, yes?
Wol Euler: maybe :)
Solobill Laville: no ;)
Pema Pera: hehehe
Storm Nordwind: whose?
--BELL--

But an interesting topic springs out of this shifting ground.

Wester Kiranov: I think even before death you can get to 'places' where the difference between yes and no disappears
Storm Nordwind: Would you say that was a worthwhile place to be in Wester? And if so, how would you get there?
Calvino Rabeni: And what "space" is the "Place" in?
Wester Kiranov: I think so it's one of the things I notice in any 'spiritual' experience, opposites collapse into one another
Wester Kiranov: Qt's story reminded me of my one Really Big Spiritual Experience, and it was THE thing there. I remember some sound bites, like "here is everywhere", but I don't knoe how to get there. I might already be there.
Wester Kiranov: But then I don't know how to see that, agian.
Wester Kiranov: calvino: space is just a metaphor here, of course.
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, like the subject/object dichotimy - might that be one of the collapsed opposites?
Pema Pera: yes, we can never force those experiences, nor repeat them . . . .
Pema Pera: but we can continue to practice and stay open for them
Wester Kiranov: calvino: yes. definitely
Archmage Atlantis: It is my belief, and mine only, that enlightenment is an evolutionary process
Wester Kiranov: never read any Ken Wilber then?
Wester Kiranov: He believes it too.
Calvino Rabeni: W K, yes, the metaphor could have a spatial component
Wol Euler googles Ken Wilber
Calvino Rabeni: Well, the tagging guidelines derive from Ken Wilber
Wester Kiranov: :D
Wol Euler: oh, wait, you mentioned him once before, didn't you? "Integral theory" ...
Archmage Atlantis: Sounds like theoretical math Calvino, my first love
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, geometry has enchanted many
Wester Kiranov: I might have. He is sort of in my system, even though I don't agree with all he says anymore

We all knew what Arch meant now, but it was fun the way he said it!

Archmage Atlantis: All the great mathematicians I knew of also embraced math
Archmage Atlantis: All saw small pieces
Archmage Atlantis: We continue to grow and evolve
Archmage Atlantis: Yet we are all of creation
Archmage Atlantis: Yikes, did I say that?
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Wol Euler laughs. You did, Arch, you did.
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Solobill Laville: It is on the record.... :)
Storm Nordwind still has the quill in his inky hand
Archmage Atlantis: Well that is one of the benefits of being insane :)\
Archmage Atlantis: And falling asleep

There is some general exiting as the time has marched on relentlessly.

Solobill Laville bids goodbye to all :)
Storm Nordwind waves
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Solo
Wester Kiranov: bye solo
Wol Euler: *'night solo, take care
Pema Pera slips away quietly too
Qt Core: bye solo
--BELL--
Wester Kiranov: bye pema
Wol Euler: bye pema, enjoy the evening
Archmage Atlantis: Bon jour
Scathach Rhiadra: me too, good night all:)
Wester Kiranov: bye scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Namasté
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
Wol Euler: bye scath, sleep well; bye storm
Wol Euler: oh, sorry :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Wester Kiranov: namaste
Archmage Atlantis: Well, at least I can still clear a room
Wol Euler: automatic reaction when I see someone stand :)
Wester Kiranov: I think I'll leave too.
Wol Euler: 'night wester

We talk about SL stuff for a while, the lack of nuance in animations, the fun of gardening, and then somehow we touch again upon death.

Archmage Atlantis: The other night Storm, you bowed deeply before leaving
Storm Nordwind: I did. But sometimes I simply bow to reciprocate a courtesy.
Archmage Atlantis: That is not how it felt
Storm Nordwind: I usually don't try to control the feelings of other people! :)
Wol Euler smiles
Archmage Atlantis: Nor I, I simply observe
Storm Nordwind: Animations in Second Life are rarely nuanced enough to allow for such shades of expression
Wol Euler: we read a lot into them, pehaps, as we actively read past each others' typos and omissions
Storm Nordwind: Aye we do Wol, right enough
Wol Euler: trying to infer meaning from the scraps that are available
Qt Core: but the last two may say something
Archmage Atlantis: Your wisteria, Storm?
Storm Nordwind: I bought it Arch. I let others create it! :)
Wol Euler: collage is also creative :)
Archmage Atlantis: You chose it
Storm Nordwind: Yes I arranged, chose, landscaped... you are blowing my facade of modesty!
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: caught in the act.
Storm Nordwind shrugs
Archmage Atlantis: The wisteria have feet
Storm Nordwind: Like Wol's feet, I've stapled them to the sim
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: It's fun being a gardener in SL when I cannot be in RL
Archmage Atlantis: Ah, that has meaning to me
Wol Euler nods
Storm Nordwind smiles at Arch
Qt Core: i think my black thumb would kill plants even here ;-)
Archmage Atlantis: I am of life
Storm Nordwind: I had fun scripting the vines too
Archmage Atlantis: I seek those who chose it
Wol Euler: scripting?
Wol Euler looks around
Storm Nordwind: Most hanging vines in SL are just flexy and bend with the wind. But it looks most unnatural as there's no account of turbulence. I introduced turbulence!
Wol Euler: wow :)
Archmage Atlantis: You know wisteria are a vine that strangles trees, yes Storm?
Qt Core: what will be life without some healthy chaos ?
Calvino Rabeni: life would be dumber
Storm Nordwind: Indeed Qt. Arch, they are not so bad as rhodadendrons at that.
Archmage Atlantis: Do the trees give their life for new life, or for some other thing?
Storm Nordwind: All the universe gives its particles for one imputed form after another without ceasing, Arch
Wol Euler: perhaps death by strangling vine is better than being sawn up to make toothpicks?
Archmage Atlantis: Your answer please, not the formula
Storm Nordwind: That's my answer Arch.
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: To die, perhaps to dream
Archmage Atlantis: Yet in that dream of death
Archmage Atlantis: etc
Storm Nordwind: Well Wol... I suspect the choice of death, by vine or saw, depends whether you're a tree ... or a human!
Archmage Atlantis: All entity is alive
Wol Euler: "death is no different whined at than withstood" as Philip Larkin said
Qt Core: time to go, goodnight everyone
Storm Nordwind: Goodnight Qt!
Wol Euler: goodnight qt, sleep well
Qt Core: ciao!
Calvino Rabeni: Hm, guess that "death" quote refers to "Big" happiness perhaps
Archmage Atlantis: Ciao
Storm Nordwind: Interesting Arch... I remember asking a group of Buddhists something like that a long long time ago. I was discussing their vegetarianism and wondered what difference they saw in plants
Archmage Atlantis: There is not difference in plants to me, they chose

We continue again seriously, but general amusement blossoms out of a wonderful typo!

Wol Euler: what is "'big' happiness? did I miss that earlier?
Calvino Rabeni: Something in the logs of a prior session.
Calvino Rabeni: Any one remember it?
Storm Nordwind rarely gets time to read all the other logs
Wol Euler shakes her head
Calvino Rabeni: Or perhaps it was an event in the kira cage.
Calvino Rabeni: cafe :)
Storm Nordwind: Nice typo Cal!
Wol Euler: a kira cage would be good!
Wol Euler: storm???
Wol Euler: can you .... ?
Wol Euler: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Cage or Cafe, interesting
Storm Nordwind: hmm... I'm sure I could ;)
Wol Euler: one man's prison is anohter man's yacht
Storm Nordwind: For debates perhaps. Two enter. One leaves? ;)
Wol Euler: right.
Calvino Rabeni: The question something like, can happiness not have todo with emotions, preferences, and conditions
Archmage Atlantis: Why only one?
Wol Euler: the chair of metaphor crashes over the head of simile.
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Calvino Rabeni: Metaphor smackdown!
Wol Euler laughs
Wol Euler: oh, we should. really.
Calvino Rabeni: RIght, make i as dynamic as the onigaka
Storm Nordwind thinks it's somthing that Humph would have said
Archmage Atlantis: Who can be one's refuge, one is one's own refuge
Calvino Rabeni: wonderful question
Storm Nordwind: many layered
Wol Euler nods
Calvino Rabeni: A whole seminar would be warranted
Archmage Atlantis: 42, suppose
Archmage Atlantis: The dream and the stories continue
Wol Euler: as with "yes and no", 42 answers a lot of questions.
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: And questions a a lot of answers sister

Wol brings up a topic recently discussed, both in this pavilion and elsewhere, about what we should use the time for. In other words, what kinds of conversations are most appropriate to the Play as Being pavilion sessions?

Wol Euler: so, storm, how are we doing? can we call this level three?
Storm Nordwind shrugs
Archmage Atlantis: I think this is my call
Storm Nordwind: It's kind of wishy-washy.
Archmage Atlantis: we are beyound level 5
Storm Nordwind: I tried to steer into level 2 at one point, but it escaped
Wol Euler nods
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I don't have that codebook
Wol Euler: arch, I was asking about a mail conversation we had had some days ago, where Storm was talking about the levels of PaB in discussions here
Storm Nordwind: But this is not really my slot and I multitasking, sadly
Wol Euler: level 1 was pure PaB, the practice itself
Wol Euler: (correct me when I go wrong)
Storm Nordwind: OK so far
Wol Euler: level 2 was applied PaB, talking about *doing* the practice and its immediate effects in my life
Wol Euler: level 3 is what we were doing when I arrived, talking about talking about PaB
Storm Nordwind: Theme sessions also fit into that. For example...
Storm Nordwind: discussions on meditation, prayer, etc
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: perhaps those are actually 2' -- on a forked path?
Storm Nordwind: Beyond that we have personal or group therapy, chitchat, sport >x< etc
Storm Nordwind: Well I'm not rigid...
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: the point is this...
Storm Nordwind: We're trying to use a single space and a single time for all sorts of things
Storm Nordwind: and the boundaries are difficult to guess
Storm Nordwind: and are subjective
Wol Euler nods
Storm Nordwind: This is a precious session to my mind
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Storm Nordwind: and to my mind might be best used for levels 1 and 2
Storm Nordwind: Especially when there are visitors
Storm Nordwind: and when people are finding their feet in the practice
Storm Nordwind: But that does not preclude other meetings
Calvino Rabeni: So there is an implicit value associated to te levels, perhaps
Storm Nordwind: and I would welcome and encourage those
Storm Nordwind: No Cal, not really
Storm Nordwind: More of an appropriateness to the time and place
Calvino Rabeni: RIght
Storm Nordwind: We can have all sorts of sessions in many times and venues
Archmage Atlantis: That is judgement Storm, do you not see ?
Calvino Rabeni: If it sounds like joking and chitchat, is it likely to be level 4?
Storm Nordwind: And we've already started those, in a light sort of way, from personal initiatives
Storm Nordwind: Yes it is Arch. very much so.
Calvino Rabeni: er, it is judjment but nt value ?
Storm Nordwind: I want Play as Being to be available for the widest possible audience, and I want to suggest things that might enable that
Archmage Atlantis: In my mind/soul/heart value is judgement
Archmage Atlantis: all has value
Wol Euler: but not all value is the same.
Wol Euler: surely?
Storm Nordwind: That is my belief Wol.
Storm Nordwind: Although values change
Storm Nordwind: and measuring sticks change
Storm Nordwind: and what is valuable to one is not to another

Why am I interested in doing this?

Storm Nordwind: But I would like as many people as possible to be able to be given that choice!
Calvino Rabeni: Idea of widest audience seems to be about appropriatness to a context ofr people
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, we have each value
Storm Nordwind nods to Cal
Calvino Rabeni: But woul it be, those who are present today, or those who may read the log, or somethin derived fromit
Calvino Rabeni: Etc.
Archmage Atlantis: it is a conundrum
Storm Nordwind: Play as Being is a practice. An exploration. It is not a venue or a discussion. It's something that some find useful, some find valuable, some find fun, some find pleasurable... many many things to different people. I would like to help offer it to the world.
--BELL--

A momentous pause after a grandiose statement! Perhaps I'm get too pompous after being here for 2 hours. Perhaps it's time to go.

Archmage Atlantis: Storm and Pema created PaG
Archmage Atlantis: Play as goodness
Wol Euler: :)
Archmage Atlantis: That is obvious to me
Archmage Atlantis: That knowledge and the other stuff will be passed
Archmage Atlantis: My name is not false
Archmage Atlantis: My true njame
Archmage Atlantis: is Robert
Archmage Atlantis: it is celtic for brave in heart
Archmage Atlantis: Names have meaning
Calvino Rabeni: So do words
Storm Nordwind: Robert is of Old German origin, rather than Gaelic or Brethonic, and its meaning is "bright fame"
Calvino Rabeni: These names may remind you of something
Storm Nordwind: It is nearly two hours since I sat down, and my knees are rather stiff!
Wol Euler: nearly midnight, I should go too. It's been a good discussion, thank you all.
Storm Nordwind: Thank you Wol. Sleep tight
Wol Euler: goodnight! take care, be happy.
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, all.
Archmage Atlantis: Namaste.......a person told he that means from my god to yours
Storm Nordwind: Good day to both of you. :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
Storm Nordwind: Namaste