2009.11.30 01:00 - Giving, receiving, sharing

Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. [Updated three weeks later: Wol Euler screwed up mightily on this one, posting the log from 1pm instead of 1am. Duh. Thanks to Pema for the correction.]

 

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino :)

Calvino Rabeni: Hello Bunny :)

Gaya Ethaniel: How are you?

Calvino Rabeni: Good, a bit tired. I am usually not awake at this time of night.

Calvino Rabeni: And you?

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it's late for you. A bit tired otherwise ok.

Gaya Ethaniel: sorry phone brb

Calvino Rabeni: I was doing a little SL building. One thing leads to another :)

Calvino Rabeni: THis is not your scheduled guardian slot, is it?

Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok :) building in SL is fun. This was my slot for a long time but I've been switching recently. Will have to switch again ... :)

Calvino Rabeni: I was wondering hw many in this group use translators.

Gaya Ethaniel: Normally we don't, we use English.

Gaya Ethaniel: Why?

Calvino Rabeni: Just curious, whether sometimes there is a translation that is not visible on the chat log.

Calvino Rabeni: Why? Not sure, but I might choose words more carefully

Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think autologger record a hud translating.

[Wol says: this is true, it currently does not. We are working on that.] 

Calvino Rabeni: Ok

Gaya Ethaniel: Choose words more carefully ... still don't get it. A translator I use is not very good ...

Gaya Ethaniel: 안녕하세요.

Calvino Rabeni: I see. For instance, I could not tell whether some people would understand certain slang phrases.

Calvino Rabeni: SO in RL I usually adjust if english is not the first language.

Gaya Ethaniel: ì•„ ê·¸ë ‡êµ°ìš”.

Gaya Ethaniel: That should have been 'I see'

Calvino Rabeni: Oh Yeah

Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway, it's not perfect ...

Gaya Ethaniel: lol

Calvino Rabeni: Is that korean script?

--BELL--

Gaya Ethaniel: [1:14] Calvino Rabeni: SO in RL I usually adjust if english is not the first language.

Gaya Ethaniel: People like this are not common I've found.

Gaya Ethaniel: Or those who focus on getting the meanings not the form ...

Calvino Rabeni: Do you think, speaking is kind of automatic for many people - that they do not reflect and hear themselves much while speaking?

Gaya Ethaniel: To a degree, yes it's automatic for most people. Took a while for me to have a pause before spitting things out of my mouth though Father always told me to reflect before uttering.

Gaya Ethaniel: He always quoted Confucius ... let me see if I can find it.

Calvino Rabeni: OK

Calvino Rabeni: I am interested in languages, although I know only a little.

Gaya Ethaniel: This makes me smile ... he said lots about 'speech' it seems.

Gaya Ethaniel: Do you think anything other than English?

Calvino Rabeni: I find the forms interesting - In Japanese there are the -shin words, and in Thai, the -jai words.

Calvino Rabeni: They seem to be categories.

Calvino Rabeni: THink in other languages, you mean?

Gaya Ethaniel: mhm

Gaya Ethaniel: Do you speak*

Gaya Ethaniel: Give me an example of - shin in Japanese?

Calvino Rabeni: Not well. I can get by in Spanish, at least for a tourist.

Calvino Rabeni: When I visited Thailand I learned to make myself understood, but slowly

Gaya Ethaniel: wow

Calvino Rabeni: And many japanese words came into my vocabulary through oriental arts, but only as words. I do not know any grammar.

Calvino Rabeni: Thai script - I almost read it - could makeout place names on the highway, etc. But after a few years I forgot it again. It would be easier next time.

Gaya Ethaniel: Though Korean and Japanese use Chinese characters as basis for most of the words, they are very different grammartically from Chinese.

Calvino Rabeni: I liked learning the speaking Thai because it is the first tonal language I tried.

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, language needs to be used ... otherwise one forgets.

Gaya Ethaniel: I saw an interesting documentary about speech the other day.

Calvino Rabeni: Japanese -shin words were used by a couple of teachers I had in zen and martial arts

Gaya Ethaniel: It seems to be embedded in our gene to speak.

Gaya Ethaniel: It's probably a Chinese character, denoting a particular group of things.

Calvino Rabeni: Mushin - I think, "empty mind", shoshin - beginner's mind.

Calvino Rabeni: zanshin - abiding mind.

Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense, like the piece with legs on it

Calvino Rabeni: That is in some animals - I think?

--BELL--

Gaya Ethaniel: Shin is pronounced as shim in Korea, referring to the Chinese character 'mind' 心, a shape of heart ...

Calvino Rabeni: I had a Thai/English dictionary, and enjoyed the translations when taken literally

Calvino Rabeni: Friends there would use the literal translation

Gaya Ethaniel: Literally why?

Gaya Ethaniel: You mean it's funy sometimes?

Calvino Rabeni: For example "worry" seemed to be a combination "thinks too much"

Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)

Gaya Ethaniel: There is a grain of truth in that ..;.

Calvino Rabeni: Not funny - revealing about ideas about mind.

Calvino Rabeni: YEs indeed

Calvino Rabeni: Like, quiet the mind, you will feel better

Calvino Rabeni: RUnaway thought

Gaya Ethaniel nods.

Calvino Rabeni: But an english speaker would not make that construction

Gaya Ethaniel: Wonder where worry comes from then, I mean the word.

Gaya Ethaniel: Because I see English that way, look into literal orgins etc. being non-English native.

Calvino Rabeni: In english, I think it means to take something and twist it back and forth

Calvino Rabeni: Literally, it is a material,physical action

Calvino Rabeni: THe words from old english are different than the ones from latin

Calvino Rabeni: I different outlook on life

Calvino Rabeni: A different, I meant

Calvino Rabeni: What was the documentary you saw, that you mentioned earlier

Gaya Ethaniel: I was looking at Oxford dictionary and yes it mentions something about 'irritating animals by attack', 'strangle'

Calvino Rabeni: RIght. from hunting.

Gaya Ethaniel: Also this - Irritation or morbid stimulation (of bodily tissue). ex This form of looseness appears to be due to direct worry of the mucous membrane.

Calvino Rabeni: Like when a dog seizes something in its jaw, and goes back and forth

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, it's somewhat different from 'thinking too much' lol

Calvino Rabeni: To wear it out

Gaya Ethaniel: ah ...

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is more physical

Gaya Ethaniel: Makes sense ...

Calvino Rabeni: and kind of raw

Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps mind/body distinction isn't necessary here.

Gaya Ethaniel: Mind keep going back and forth ... wearing out.

Gaya Ethaniel: This is the documentary -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m97BoV1pYlA

Calvino Rabeni: It makes sense, the body follows the mind

Calvino Rabeni: I can't see it right now, but will look later. What is interesting?

Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps :)

Gaya Ethaniel: Well, there was this experiment using a series of volunteers. They were presented with images with made up words.

Calvino Rabeni: Was this about unconscious biases?

Gaya Ethaniel: Each person was asked to memorised then spell out afterwards matching up with the images. What happened was after a series of volunteers [generations], the words begin to resemble proper language with meaningful word constructions.

Gaya Ethaniel: No, it covered a lot of why we speak.

Calvino Rabeni: Learning occurred

Gaya Ethaniel: Animals seem to do too, like birds.

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, learning :)

Calvino Rabeni: What kind of new insights did this study suggest?

--BELL--

Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not an expert in this area ...for me, it was interesting to see that we have inherent ability to communicate.

Calvino Rabeni: I hope I do :)

Gaya Ethaniel: And the learning process can take many generations too not just an individual.

Gaya Ethaniel: Apparently they found the gene for it :)

Calvino Rabeni: How about learning to dance, or some other physical skill - does it seem the same process?

Gaya Ethaniel: An interesting question ... it could be. What do you think?

Calvino Rabeni: I think yes.

Gaya Ethaniel: Give an example?

Calvino Rabeni: You learn small units, like where to put your feet. The get put together into larger units, you learn to make structures. Then you forget the structure (do them unconsciously) and use it to convey meaning.

Gaya Ethaniel: Do you think that gets passed onto next generation?

Calvino Rabeni: I think some structures can be comunicated easily and quickly and learned by young animals very rapidly.

Gaya Ethaniel nods.

Calvino Rabeni: I don't thnk there is any language encoding in genetic sequence.

Gaya Ethaniel: I think you will find the documentary interesting then :)

Calvino Rabeni: Some features seem built into the body

Calvino Rabeni: OK, I will be interested.

Gaya Ethaniel: :)

Gaya Ethaniel: I won't say not to ruin the fun :)

Gaya Ethaniel: Gotta run ...

Calvino Rabeni: There seem to be many stages to language understanding that happen together

Calvino Rabeni: OK

Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Calvino, nice seeing you again!

Calvino Rabeni: LIke wise. ENjoy your day.

Calvino Rabeni: bye

Gaya Ethaniel waves