2008.12.01 07:00 - On Lucidity and Enlightenment

Becka Finesmith was the Guardian. Comments are hers alone.

Fael and Becka arrived for an early start and chatted a little about the definition of success and failure.

Becka Finesmith: HI Fael
Fael Illyar: Hi Becka :)
Fael Illyar: about equally early :)
Becka Finesmith: :) - I've been having trouble getting in so I thought I would try early :)
Becka Finesmith: Did you have a good weekend?
Fael Illyar: Yes, that tends to help :)
Fael Illyar: Well, kind of mixed but it's ok.
Becka Finesmith: I hope things have settled a little now?
Fael Illyar: you keep learning things anyway, good or bad :)
Faenik: ah :)
Becka Finesmith: This is true :)
Becka Finesmith: and a nice way to look on things
Fael Illyar: You could say so, yes :)
Fael Illyar: I stolethis from Corvi's profile but I like it: "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.-Samuel Beckett"
Becka Finesmith: lol - I like that :)
Fael Illyar: Nothing is a failure, unless you decide it is :)
Becka Finesmith: Anythinbg you have the potential to learn from must be a success
Fael Illyar: That covers pretty much everything then :)
Becka Finesmith: :)From this day forward I will set out to always fail :)
Fael Illyar: ok, please describe what this "fail" is too :P
Becka Finesmith: Fail now undefined
Becka Finesmith: please restart
Becka Finesmith: :)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Faenik will also say anything anyone says on channel 33.

The discussion on definitions continued....

Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
Becka Finesmith: Hello Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Fael
Pema Pera: Hi Becka
Faenik has got an upgrade, will now babble anything anyone says on channel 33.
Pema Pera: and hi Faenik :)
Becka Finesmith: :)
Becka Finesmith: We have just undefined the word "Fail"
Pema Pera: Faenkik got an upgrade?
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: you're now failing to fail ??
Fael Illyar: Yup :P
Becka Finesmith: There is no longer Fail only succeed
Pema Pera: or failing to use the word fail?
Becka Finesmith: Succeeding to use the word succeed
Pema Pera: how about undefining both failing and succeeding?
Becka Finesmith: Now you have us
Becka Finesmith: :)
Fael Illyar: both are equally unmeaningful without the other :)
Pema Pera: (sorry to spoil the fun)
Pema Pera: yes, I think so, Fael
Pema Pera: a favorite example for me is "an isolated right side of a stick"
Pema Pera: you can write that on a blackboard
Pema Pera: but you can't hold one in your hand
Pema Pera: without a left side
Fael Illyar: Yep :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Riddle :)
Becka Finesmith: perhaps Learn is an exception then
Riddle Sideways: hi everybody
Becka Finesmith: HI Riddle
Becka Finesmith: We are seeing what words don't have opposites
Pema Pera: even so, on a relative level, there is a lot to say for a kind of positive thinking, where you shift emphasis from an attitude of expecting failure to an attitude of expecting success . . . all a matter of balance . . . no need to be too absolute, which can become a bit sterile . . .
Faenik will babble for anyone, just say something on channel 33.
Pema Pera: Hi Riddle!
Pema Pera: ah, Becka, here is a trick: capitalize!
Becka Finesmith: lol
Pema Pera: so you have good vs. bad, but you can say that as appearance, all is Good
Pema Pera: in the sense of is as it is
Pema Pera: wholesome
Pema Pera: whole
Becka Finesmith: degrees of good?
Pema Pera: "good" has "bad" as counterpart
Pema Pera: but "Good" is then synonimous with Being
Pema Pera: without counterpart
Becka Finesmith: zero degrees of good is bad
Pema Pera: Hi Doug!
Becka Finesmith: HI Doug
Fael Illyar: Hi doug :)
Pema Pera: the problem is that going beyond the relative level doesn't allow you to bring words and concepts with you -- security doesn't allow you to check those in!
doug Sosa: morning.
Pema Pera: (I'm at an airport now)
Pema Pera: (about to leave New York, for my flight to Tokyo)
Becka Finesmith: Ahh -
Fael Illyar: Ah, have a good flight :) How long do you have?
Pema Pera: (arriving just in time for the next guardian meeting !)
Pema Pera: till 8 am SLT
Pema Pera: flight fits perfectly between two weekly guardian meetings!
Riddle Sideways: to participate in this conversation Riddle will have to take on Avastu's voice
Becka Finesmith: Excellent! And you are on your Mobile?
Riddle Sideways: All is
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: yes, Riddle/Avasttu :-)
Pema Pera: et tu Avastu
Riddle Sideways: as it is
Faenik loves wells!
Becka Finesmith: where does that leave us here and now?
Pema Pera: strictly speaking, there is no "us" and no "here" and no "now" . . . . .
Pema Pera: but we can continue our life of course
Riddle Sideways: just all
Pema Pera: in a different light

Which turned to Lucidity....

Becka Finesmith: I had a rare moment of lucidity on that last night
Pema Pera: haha, Riddle, doing a great Avastu!
Becka Finesmith: after reading Time, space and knowledge
Becka Finesmith: HOw come lucidity only seems to happen when I'm half asleep?
Becka Finesmith: will I lose that if I fully awaken?
Fael Illyar: Only when half asleep, do we make efficient use of the limited resources that are left.
Riddle Sideways: probably not a question that we can answer FOR you
Becka Finesmith: perhaps I would like to be half asleep more often :)
Riddle Sideways: but one we have all faced
Riddle Sideways: trick is find that place and bring it with
Becka Finesmith: And what did you find when you faced it Riddle?
Fael Illyar: being half asleep offers clues as to what it is that removes lucidity from fully awake.
Fael Illyar: Hi Crusty :)
doug Sosa: hm, if lucidity is missing hen fully awake, what is lucidity? I thought it was total "as if" awake?
Pema Pera: Hi again Crusty!
Crusty Goldshark: hi guys
Becka Finesmith: Hello Crusty
Riddle Sideways: many words have been tossed about: half-awake, half-conscience
Fael Illyar: When there is too much dirt on the windshield, you can't quite see clearly :)
Crusty Goldshark: too much tossing?
Riddle Sideways: ooooo like that
Faenik: could be
Riddle Sideways: like bringing sitting meditation into walking meditation
Fael Illyar: when half-awake, you lack the energy to try to make out what's dirt and what is not, so you go clean it first :)
Crusty Goldshark: my meditation off walks . . .
Crusty Goldshark: often
Becka Finesmith: So lucidity if the ability to see through the dirt?
Riddle Sideways: bringing that sence of [lucidity, peace, etc.] onto the new environ
Becka Finesmith: *is
Fael Illyar: no, lucidity is the lack of dirt
Becka Finesmith nods
Riddle Sideways: /Faenif "could be"
Crusty Goldshark: is dirt clean?
Riddle Sideways: dirt can be Crusty :)
Faenik will parrot anyone talking on channel 33.
Becka Finesmith: there is no dirt - I'm fully awake
Becka Finesmith: :)

Crusty Goldshark: good news Becka - keep up the good work
Faenik: could be
Faenik loves wells!
Crusty Goldshark: start on the grass - it needs enlightening

doug Sosa: :)
Faenik: :)
Becka Finesmith: Just change your environment to "Midday" :p
Riddle Sideways: oooo like that too
Becka Finesmith: So if you are fully awake, Lucidity also has no real meaning?
Riddle Sideways: the ability to be in your special [lucid] place and then set world to midday
Faenik: why not?
Becka Finesmith: Lucidity: A faculty from which superknowledge may be obtained
Faenik: ah :)
Crusty Goldshark: Why so serious?
Becka Finesmith: who crusty?
Crusty Goldshark: Batman
Faenik: ah :)
Faenik: ah :)
doug Sosa: :)
Becka Finesmith: You lost me now??
Crusty Goldshark: Stay lost. maybe it is like beginner mind?

A deep feeling of discomfort overcame me with that statement so I left the conversation while I explored this....

Faenik: who knows who writes this
doug Sosa: :)
Riddle Sideways: conscience knows many things, sub-conscience knows many things. When half-way maybe the 2 are linked, balenced
Crusty Goldshark: What about the super conscience? Is that what Batman has?
Riddle Sideways: need to listen to both (and neither) side
Fael Illyar: If you don't understand, don't pretend you do and make claims and/or believe.
Riddle Sideways: Super-Man is another subject
Crusty Goldshark: OK
doug Sosa: lucid dreaming? In a sentence..?
Crusty Goldshark: Is it a sentance?
Crusty Goldshark: I am still trying to lucid wake up . . .
Riddle Sideways: "I can't use Lucid in one sentence, today"
Crusty Goldshark: dinner?
doug Sosa: breakfast.
Fael Illyar: ice cream
Crusty Goldshark: great breakfast after dinner
Riddle Sideways: the bell sounds for page2
Riddle Sideways: a state you label "awake". a place you label asleep/sub-conscience/dreaming
Crusty Goldshark: well said
Riddle Sideways: fully ingaged yet un-attached
Pema Pera: Hi Gen!
Fael Illyar: Hi Gen :)
Faenik: could be
Riddle Sideways: you can stand back and see YOUR actions as you make them
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pema, hi Fael, hey all!
Crusty Goldshark: hi
Riddle Sideways: a meta-you analyzes why you are doing something
Riddle Sideways: Hi red cloud Genesis
genesis Zhangsun: I believe that was Fael :)
Riddle Sideways: ok
Fael Illyar smiles
Riddle Sideways: the sword was descening toward me and yet another me was able to watch the entire dance
Riddle Sideways: how can this I explain. you have to experience. Yet you have experienced it. You laready do this practice
Faenik: why not?
Riddle Sideways: while both hands/fingers are moving differently on your instrument. you play the music
Riddle Sideways: plan what to play next
Riddle Sideways: AND listen to the entire band
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Pema Pera: yes, isn't that amazing??
Riddle Sideways: a half hour ago half-awake implied two places
Riddle Sideways: now has ...
Fael Illyar: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1357
Riddle Sideways: ha ha thanks Fael
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Riddle Sideways: being hit with shenai (practice sword) is about the same
Fael Illyar: It's much easier to know the answers to those than to be enlightened ;)
Faenik: not sure
Fael Illyar: although on the other hand, it's easier to be enlightened :)
Pema Pera: that all reminds me . . . .I do miss Avastu's aphorisms, Riddle . . . you were doing a pretty good impersonation; would you care to continue?
Faenik: ah :)
Riddle Sideways: simply that it all is
Riddle Sideways: as it is
Riddle Sideways: Faenik is often as good as Avastu
Riddle Sideways: in under/over statements
Pema Pera: :-)
Faenik grins wickedly.
Pema Pera: ah, Fael, you could load a special Avastu program for Faenik, combining the best of both!
Riddle Sideways: alt. def.: enlightenment = a lightening of your load
Pema Pera: :-)
genesis Zhangsun: though I have to say when Avastu is right he really hits the nail on the head
Faenik: why not?
genesis Zhangsun: right as in just the right measure
Pema Pera: (for the record: I do very much appreciate Avastu's sayings and I would be happy to hear more of them!)
Pema Pera: yes, Gen!
Riddle Sideways: would too
Pema Pera: alas, he is not online right now, otherwise I'd ask him to come over
Riddle Sideways: ok folks.... RL is calling
Pema Pera: bye Riddle!
Crusty Goldshark: this is not RL?
Pema Pera: be well
Riddle Sideways: try to behalf-awake today
genesis Zhangsun: nice to see you Riddle!
Pema Pera: or a la Avastu: be!
Crusty Goldshark: Cu
Pema Pera: behave as behalf?
genesis Zhangsun: hehe
Crusty Goldshark: He vanished - this is not real - right?
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: anything you assume in SL just might be wrong :)
Crusty Goldshark: even if i assume it might be wrong?Gosh!
Fael Illyar: yup :)
Crusty Goldshark: OK
Crusty Goldshark: I often think about the Mahayana dictum - Emptiness is form and Form is emptiness - anyone any insights on this?
Pema Pera: what is your insight, and/or question?
Crusty Goldshark: eh . . . how long is a piece of string . . .
Crusty Goldshark: Well that is the question . . .
Faenik: なるほど^^
Crusty Goldshark: The Insight is different according to wether a form is required - or not
Crusty Goldshark: So thought takes a form
Crusty Goldshark: even though it is empty - perhaps only formed by the emptiness
Crusty Goldshark: or formed by the nature of being
Pema Pera: in how far are these ideas or thoughts about thoughts, and in how far are you reporting your experience of working with this, Crusty? Sorry, that was not quite clear to me.
Crusty Goldshark: My experience is that thought has no origination - no point of forming or arising
Crusty Goldshark: However it arises from being
Crusty Goldshark: If you look for thought you can not find its source only bits of formation
Crusty Goldshark: So awareness has a cause but the cause can not be tied down
Pema Pera: why do you think it has a cause?
Crusty Goldshark: well something I say triggers a response
Pema Pera: why posit a something?
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Crusty Goldshark: casation or karma is dependent - wether dependent on eptiness or form or whether these are different I have no idea . . .
Crusty Goldshark: Something is the form
Crusty Goldshark: it is there yet has no being indpendent of some other cause
Pema Pera: (would love to continue this interesting conversation, but my plane is boarding in five minutes, so I don't have time to inject here the "no time" view beyond causation :-)
Crusty Goldshark: Bye
genesis Zhangsun: bye Pema!
Crusty Goldshark: Live long and prosper
Pema Pera: if you continue, can someone email me the rest of the chat?
xxx: hi
genesis Zhangsun: Hi xxx!
Crusty Goldshark: hi xxx
Pema Pera: nice talking with all of you!
Crusty Goldshark: Bye pema be kind to the fish
Pema Pera: (sorry, computer freezes up for a minute or more at the time -- on my way now)
Faenik: could be
Crusty Goldshark: Tow people have returned to the emptiness buttheyare still form

At which point, RL took over......