2008.12.25 13:00 - Being, dreaming and talking

The guardian and commenter for this meeting is Fefonz.

It's Christmas eve, and the audience was small. Scathach & Fefonz are the first to appear 

Fefonz Quan: Hello Scathach!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: and how are you ?
Fefonz Quan: i'm great :)
Fefonz Quan: and you?
Scathach Rhiadra: very well too:)
Fefonz Quan: are you a non-christmas celebrator too?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, definitely:)
Fefonz Quan: well that makes two of us :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: I enjoy the time off work though:)
Fefonz Quan: me too,big times, took a flight home for the winter break
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, very nice:)
Fefonz Quan: since it's my first time as a guardian - are there more things to do besides recording?
Scathach Rhiadra: not unless any one new turns up
Scathach Rhiadra: then do you have a notecard to give them?
Fefonz Quan: HI Tarmel!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel:)
Tarmel Udimo: hi scath & efonz
Fefonz Quan: don't think so, let me check
Fefonz Quan: well i do have some notecards on my inventory
Scathach Rhiadra: the PaB one?
Fefonz Quan: Basics of , yes
Scathach Rhiadra: :)

   

Tarmel enters the pavilion

Tarmel Udimo: are you both hvaing a good day/night
Tarmel Udimo: *having
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, and you?
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Fefonz Quan: seems like we all arae :)
Fefonz Quan: are*
Scathach Rhiadra: good:)
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Fefonz Quan: any new thoughts /experiments concerning PasB?
Fefonz Quan: (feels obliged to move the talk on being a guardian, not sure this is necessary)
Fefonz Quan: :)
Tarmel Udimo: a little motivation never hurt :)

   

a new visitor - laise89 joins for a short while, giving Fefonz the opportunity to demonstrate his (lack of) mastery in SL features and welcome procedures.

laise89 Oller: hello
Scathach Rhiadra nods agreement
Fefonz Quan: you didn't meet my army commender :)
Tarmel Udimo: hi laise
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello laise
Fefonz Quan: Hello laise
laise89 Oller: i am from Brazil
Tarmel Udimo: have you been here before?
Tarmel Udimo: in play as being pavillion?
laise89 Oller: hi
laise89 Oller: no
Tarmel Udimo: okay fefonz will TELL YOU ALL ABOUT US.... :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :))
Fefonz Quan: :)))
Scathach Rhiadra: I see you are new to Second Life Laise
Fefonz Quan: i tried to give a notecard but didn't think it got through...
laise89 Oller accepted your inventory offer.
Scathach Rhiadra: anybody any topic they would like to discuss?
Tarmel Udimo: i just gave laise a note card
Tarmel Udimo: please have a read and this will explain what we do here...
Tarmel Udimo: scath why not explain to laise what we do ie the 9 secs
Tarmel Udimo: or fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: I don't know if Laise is still with us
Tarmel Udimo: she's back now
Fefonz Quan: i am here, gave her the card a few mins. ago
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Fefonz Quan: but didn't manage to explain much till now
Tarmel Udimo: well any pab experiences
laise89 Oller: okay

   

Moving to discuss the Phenomenology first exercise

   

Tarmel Udimo: has anyone tried pema's exercise
Fefonz Quan: do you mean the phenomenolgy one?
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I just posted my lab report:)
Fefonz Quan: just red about it in the last mail, still needs to catch up and try it myself
Fefonz Quan: read*
Tarmel Udimo: feel like telling us
Scathach Rhiadra: well, it was hard to figure out exactly what we were doing at first, spent a lot of time thinking about it
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Scathach Rhiadra: then realised it was about the experience, not the philosophy
Tarmel Udimo: smiles and nods..
laise89 Oller: goody bye
Scathach Rhiadra: so, I just tried to describe changing my perspective of how I see the world
Tarmel Udimo: bye
Fefonz Quan: bye
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Laise
laise89 Oller: thank you!
Scathach Rhiadra: you are welcome
Scathach Rhiadra: basically by doing a small meditation
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Fefonz Quan: i've read your report, and it was different from the others
Fefonz Quan: in the sense that the others tried to "be" the object on the second stage
Tarmel Udimo: where are the reports by the way?
Fefonz Quan: was that the description of the task?
Fefonz Quan: (i saw it on the groups email)
Scathach Rhiadra: more to experience yourself as object, didn't necessarily mean to 'be' another object
Scathach Rhiadra: or so it seemed to me, and I may be wrong:)
Fefonz Quan: experiencing as object, is there a subject?
Fefonz Quan: or object as "non sentient object"
Tarmel Udimo: hi dolores
Dolores Erin: hi? hare krishna?
Fefonz Quan: hi dolores

   

Shifting of perception is in mind now

Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, I found shifting awareness as it were, to watching myself seems to make me an 'object', just like any other object
Dolores Erin: hi merry christmas
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Dolores
Tarmel Udimo: gone
Tarmel Udimo: did you 'feel' like an object?
Scathach Rhiadra: more like a perception, just like any other perceptions
Scathach Rhiadra: if that makes any sense:)
Fefonz Quan: where you looking at some special part as leg/hand doing this?
Scathach Rhiadra: well I found I felt more centred in by body, more aware of sensations of movement
Scathach Rhiadra: withour being concious of them
Fefonz Quan: aware without being concious of?
Fefonz Quan: i need some explanation here
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe I mean without trying to be concious of them, like in walking meditation
Fefonz Quan: likewithout puuting effort or focusing on them?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes
Fefonz Quan: putting*
Tarmel Udimo: do you find you can access that shifted perception when not doing an 'exercise'?
Scathach Rhiadra: sometimes, after meditation, there is a slight shift in awareness, I find
Fefonz Quan: i find that too
Scathach Rhiadra: it is very subtle, and doesn't last long:)
Scathach Rhiadra: or maybe I need to practice more:)
Fefonz Quan: i felt that longer sessions, like a day/weekend retreat leves more footprint
Fefonz Quan: leaves
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Scathach Rhiadra: I would like to be able to achieve the same with the 9 secs:)
Tarmel Udimo: I think we have access to these other states at all times and in fact you are probably doing it more than you think
Fefonz Quan: 9+9+9... they accumulate :)
Tarmel Udimo: I call it the blink technique :-))
Scathach Rhiadra: I agree Tarmel, and it is not always after meditation for me, can be in some quite unexpected ways
Scathach Rhiadra: but meditation seems to provide the 'focusing' if that is the right word
Fefonz Quan: did you find that experience to feel comfortable or "nice"?
Fefonz Quan: (i ask because i fell so sometimes, and wonders if that is the goal)
Fefonz Quan: feel*
Scathach Rhiadra: that is a difficult one:)
Scathach Rhiadra: It feels comfortable, but also very 'alive' or 'alert' at the same time
Tarmel Udimo: ys that is my expereince more alert
Tarmel Udimo: less personal
Fefonz Quan: 'walking on air' like?
Tarmel Udimo: hummmm in a way for me more grounded
Tarmel Udimo: but with space around it
Fefonz Quan: that's a nice way to put it
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, not elated or anything like that, more aware of the moment
Tarmel Udimo: hummm and therefore not so ladened with personality traits
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: and not looking to the next or previous experience
Tarmel Udimo: hummm just being there
Scathach Rhiadra: exactly:))
Tarmel Udimo: grins...

   

Being vs. communicating - opposites or complements?

Fefonz Quan: does it feel like communicating with someone might break the spell in tis situation?
Fefonz Quan: this*
Fefonz Quan: meaning that the "aloness" is more convenient for it?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it feels like a very delicate experience, the slightest distraction, and it is gone:)
Fefonz Quan: i feel that too many times
Fefonz Quan: and it bothers me
Fefonz Quan: because i wouldn't expect our practice (or any other awareness practice) to be on the non-social side
Scathach Rhiadra: well, I have also found that I am more centred after the experience, so maybe If i could have it more it would become more stable
Tarmel Udimo: peraps its a matter of always refocusing... I almost think its like tending a fire it dis down you fan it and it rises again
Tarmel Udimo: *perhaps
Tarmel Udimo: *dies
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, that is a good picture:)
Fefonz Quan: mostly because starting a fire is also not so easy ...:)
Scathach Rhiadra: true:)
Tarmel Udimo: hummm it takes away the effort or struggling or thinking one isn't doing it right etcetc
Fefonz Quan: and it's much more easy to maintain it then to start over when it's gone
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Tarmel Udimo: its an ebbing.. a constant refocusing...
Tarmel Udimo: and there will always be a small ember waiting for you to fan it into a giant flame
Fefonz Quan: very poetic tarmel :)
Scathach Rhiadra: and the 9 secs provides an oppurtunity to keep refocusing regularly
Tarmel Udimo: yes excatly - and if the fire dies out - well just gather more fire and start another one...
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tarmel Udimo: *wood I mean
Scathach Rhiadra: so, are you both going to do the experiment?
Fefonz Quan: yep
Fefonz Quan: (for me)
Tarmel Udimo: yes I have I haven't posted it yet. naughty girl :)
Scathach Rhiadra: heehee:)
Tarmel Udimo: when's the next meeting?
Fefonz Quan: i once had an experience of looking on my hands as objects
Scathach Rhiadra: tomorrow night/day at 2pm SLT
Fefonz Quan: in 6 hours?
Tarmel Udimo: ta
Tarmel Udimo: 24hrs
Fefonz Quan: oh, the pheno one
Scathach Rhiadra: which meeting:))
Tarmel Udimo: yes should have been more specific
Tarmel Udimo: the pheno one
Fefonz Quan: is it in the kira cafe or here?

   

The discussion takes an interesting new direction - towards methods to awake from a dream. The knowledge of being in a dream and nested dreams followed...

Tarmel Udimo: I do remember reading somewhere that if you want to wake up in your dream you must focus on your hands
Scathach Rhiadra: Kira Cafe
Fefonz Quan: i have other methods :)
Tarmel Udimo: ohhh do tell
Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)
Fefonz Quan: well, the audience have asked for ti, soooo
Fefonz Quan: when i was very young, one method was to jump from tall buildings, so the inability to really get hurt woke me up
Tarmel Udimo: and were you awake in your dream?
Scathach Rhiadra: in your dream, or really awake?
Tarmel Udimo: we both ask:)
Fefonz Quan: no, really awake,
Scathach Rhiadra: ah
Fefonz Quan: surely it demanded that i now i am dreaming in the dream
Fefonz Quan: know*
Tarmel Udimo: good point..
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fefonz Quan: i did had some cases where i thought i woke up in my bad, and found out this is another dream - nested dreams i guess
Fefonz Quan: this was quite spooky...
Scathach Rhiadra: I have had a few dreams where I knew I was dreaming, not have never tried to have them
Tarmel Udimo: nested dreams what a great description
Fefonz Quan: well,sounds great, but then even when you are awake, you are still very supicious :/
Fefonz Quan: suspicious*
Tarmel Udimo: humm
Fefonz Quan: then lately,
Fefonz Quan: i found that just knowing i'm in a dream, i can stop it mentally
Scathach Rhiadra: did you ever read the chineese story of the butterfly's dream
Fefonz Quan: i know the story (who's dreaming who?)
Scathach Rhiadra: :))
Fefonz Quan: though when i stoped it, in the dream i just knew it will stop, i didn't know where i would wake up
Tarmel Udimo: phone brb
Fefonz Quan: (what is brb?)
Scathach Rhiadra: be right back
Scathach Rhiadra: like awk
Scathach Rhiadra: afk*
Fefonz Quan: awk-awake from keyboard ?:)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: away
Fefonz Quan: yep, i knew it
Scathach Rhiadra: :))
Fefonz Quan: how did we got to discuss my dreams? - ah from looking at the hands

And back to communication and words vs. Being

   

Scathach Rhiadra: yes

Fefonz Quan: concerning the self awareness/perception vs. communication, it eminds me of a discussion i had with a friend today
Fefonz Quan: reminds*
Scathach Rhiadra: oh?
Fefonz Quan: i discussed the idea of "experiencing without perception", and we got to the insight that even if it can be achieved, Communicating it MUST use concepts
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Scathach Rhiadra: the big problem is words:)
Fefonz Quan: exactly, we wondered if body language counts as concepts or not
Tarmel Udimo: hi folks - breakfast is calling - was great talking to you both have a great christmas
Fefonz Quan: bye tarmel!
Scathach Rhiadra: night Tarmel:)
Tarmel Udimo: bye y'all
Scathach Rhiadra: well, body language would be perceptions as well, would it not?
Scathach Rhiadra: for the perceiver
Fefonz Quan: perceptions, but not concepts
Fefonz Quan: we have perceptions in our experience alone too, don't we?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes
Fefonz Quan: i thought it is vague too, but the problem indeed is much more apparent in words
Scathach Rhiadra: agreed
Scathach Rhiadra: the same word can mean so many different things to different people
Fefonz Quan: exactly, and it also can never fully describe the experience, just give a short non-accurate description
Scathach Rhiadra: true, I found it very difficult to write that short report, couldn't find the words:)
Fefonz Quan: maybe tihs is also the reason for the difficulty we mentioned earlier
Fefonz Quan: concerning the focusing state that is interrupted by communication
Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, yes it could be
Fefonz Quan: because in the minute we try to put it in word, we have in some sense leave the "being" state in order to formulate the words
Scathach Rhiadra nods:)
Scathach Rhiadra: well, I will have to go now, see you tomorrow, take care:)
Fefonz Quan: me too, it's night here already
Scathach Rhiadra: here also
Fefonz Quan: night then, see you tommorow
Scathach Rhiadra: namasté
Fefonz Quan: namaste