2008.12.16 13:00 - "Best practices for waking up!"

The Guardian for this session was Genesis Zhangsun.  The comments below are hers.

genesis Zhangsun: Hey Everyone!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gen
Crusty Goldshark: hi
Wester Kiranov: hi gen
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Wester nice to see you here :)
Wester Kiranov: same to you :)
genesis Zhangsun: So have we started any topics?
Wester Kiranov: nope
Scathach Rhiadra: nice companionable silence:)
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: well there has been an email thread going on
genesis Zhangsun: which has brought up how PaB compares to traditional practices
genesis Zhangsun: and how people relate to PaB practices
genesis Zhangsun: as a supplement to their traditional practice
genesis Zhangsun: or as something stand alone
genesis Zhangsun: Would we be interested in discussing this?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it has been interesting reading
genesis Zhangsun: Wester and Crusty I am not sure if you are on the email list
Scathach Rhiadra: do you follow any tradition?
genesis Zhangsun: but basically Pema has been feeling out how people relate to PaB
Wester Kiranov: yes, i'm on the email list
genesis Zhangsun: and what I just explained
genesis Zhangsun: ah ok Wester
Crusty Goldshark: I follow the Metta Ray
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: No I would have to say I am a jack of all trades a master of none :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wester Kiranov: I'm a reluctant buddhist, and i recently started tai chi
genesis Zhangsun: reluctant in what way Wester?
Wester Kiranov: well, there is a dogmatic side to it, and i find it very hard to deal with taht in the right way

Wester Kiranov: plus i am still looking for a teacher i can really trust
genesis Zhangsun: what aspects of buddhism do you see as dogmatic?
Crusty Goldshark: What do you need a teacher you can trust for? I can not even trust myself but end up following myself everywhere . . .
genesis Zhangsun: well a teacher can be useful sometimes Crusty :)
genesis Zhangsun: though I agree Wester it is important to find the right one
genesis Zhangsun: and the right one for each person is very different
Crusty Goldshark: . . . and wasn't it the Sakyamuni who said if it don't jive it ain't real or such such advice . . .
Wester Kiranov: any religion has its dogmatic side, i guess, just some things with reincarnation and so on.
genesis Zhangsun: sure, I guess this may be one reason why I have avoided commitment to one religion or one path
genesis Zhangsun: I am more of the school that each person has their own unique path
Crusty Goldshark: Reincarnation can be interpreted as the incarnation through ones own selves - transmigration is for the hopeless . . .
Wester Kiranov: actually i know someone that i would like to be my teacher, but he lives too far away for there to be enough interaction
genesis Zhangsun: which cannot be defined by one school but learning from a number of philosophies and practices one can get more of an idea of who they are what they believe
Crusty Goldshark: I find the assumption that one know who or what or even that one should have a teacher rather stange . . . I belonged to a tradition where the teacher finds you - not the other way around . . .
genesis Zhangsun: What about you Scat do you follow any practice?
genesis Zhangsun: well perhaps you find one another
Scathach Rhiadra: well I am Buddhist, but not really affiated to any particular school
Scathach Rhiadra: affiliated*
Crusty Goldshark: Open Source Buddhism?
Wester Kiranov: :D
genesis Zhangsun: and how do you relate to the PaB practice as a Buddhist?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, good description:)
Scathach Rhiadra: I think the 9 second practice is like a mini-meditation, but because we do it so regularly, it can be better than long sessions
Wester Kiranov: i think pab is a good reminder, and something that can easily be done on a day-to-day basis

A newcomer arrives...

genesis Zhangsun: Hey DinaGold!
DianaGold Xaris: Hey Hey! x
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Dinagold
DianaGold Xaris: hows everyone?
Wester Kiranov: but it needs supplementing with longer exercises
Crusty Goldshark: Hi Diana :)
Wester Kiranov: hi dianagold
DianaGold Xaris accepted your inventory offer.
genesis Zhangsun: Diana have you been here before?
Scathach Rhiadra: it can be easier to integrate into daily life
genesis Zhangsun: I just gave you a notecard in case you haven't :)
DianaGold Xaris: Nope
DianaGold Xaris: My First Day
genesis Zhangsun: as the notecard explains we post transcripts of our daily meetings on a wiki
genesis Zhangsun: are you ok with being included on the wiki?
DianaGold Xaris: sounds goood, i dont mind :)
genesis Zhangsun: great thanks
genesis Zhangsun: rights now we are discussing a practice that some of us are involved in through this group
Scathach Rhiadra: I agree with you Wester, longer sessions are needed as well
genesis Zhangsun: of 9 second micromeditation
DianaGold Xaris: watca guys do?
Crusty Goldshark: We are discussing how teachers are no use unless enlightened and wondering why they bother teaching if they are not . . .
genesis Zhangsun: no actually Crusty we are not :)
Crusty Goldshark: No actually we are not
Wester Kiranov: he is ;)
DianaGold Xaris: lol is it always this complexed lol
genesis Zhangsun: yes complex maybe :)
DianaGold Xaris: Lol :)\
Crusty Goldshark: No sometimes we simplify for the more complicated . . .
genesis Zhangsun: checkout our website for a fair representation of what we "do"
Wester Kiranov: so, did you mean what do we do here in general, or right now?
Scathach Rhiadra: does anyone else have trouble writing down something after each 9 sec session?
Crusty Goldshark: no more before or after
genesis Zhangsun: sure...mine were so repetitive
Wester Kiranov: i have quite a few saentences that just say "what's the use of writing this sentence"
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Crusty Goldshark: meditation OD?
genesis Zhangsun: yes I didn't find it so helpful but perhaps just didn't have the patience
Wester Kiranov: i guess it's akin to "labeling" in sitting meditation
DianaGold Xaris: cya guys im ganna explore
Wester Kiranov: bye
Scathach Rhiadra: bye, have fun!
genesis Zhangsun: bye Diana
Crusty Goldshark: have fun - be kind to the fish
DianaGold Xaris: will do lol
Crusty Goldshark: :)
genesis Zhangsun: going back to doing longer meditations and the 9 seconds
genesis Zhangsun: in some ways I find the 9 seconds extremely advanced and extremely simple
genesis Zhangsun: simple because anyone can come in with no meditative experience and take 9 seconds to appreciate their lives better
Crusty Goldshark: that seems about right . . .
genesis Zhangsun: advanced because dropping in , really "dropping" into a meditative state in those 9 seconds is extremely advanced
genesis Zhangsun: and takes practice
genesis Zhangsun: just like anything
genesis Zhangsun: if it was writing it would be the same thing
genesis Zhangsun: anyone can get in the habit of being asked to write something down every 15 minutes
genesis Zhangsun: but to write something meaningful, dropping and writing what is really there
genesis Zhangsun: that takes practice
Scathach Rhiadra: but can someone who has no meditative experience at all, really get into a meditative state in 9 seconds?
Crusty Goldshark: no
genesis Zhangsun: well I would say there are two answers :)
Crusty Goldshark: but thay can play at being in a meditative state
Corvuscorva Nightfire is Online
genesis Zhangsun: yes exactly Crusty
genesis Zhangsun: and that playing maybe what people in more advanced stages are doing too
genesis Zhangsun: but perhaps more consciously
Crusty Goldshark: of courde we are either beings at play or playing at Being
Wester Kiranov: or Being Playing
Crusty Goldshark: yes
genesis Zhangsun: those ways to describe it are useful in some sense but on the otherhand they are creating dualisms which don't really exist
Wester Kiranov: very true
Crusty Goldshark: tes
genesis Zhangsun: what is the difference really?
genesis Zhangsun: We play as being, Being plays as us
Crusty Goldshark: the difference is experiential
genesis Zhangsun: how so Crusty?
Crusty Goldshark: degree of perceptive awareness
Wester Kiranov: If we are convinced it is us playing we cannot see it's larger than that
Crusty Goldshark: yes size of awareness
Crusty Goldshark: Everyone is awake but some are more awake than others
genesis Zhangsun: yes interesting point Wester and Crusty
Wester Kiranov: so - whose awareness is biggest? let's lay them down next to another ;)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
genesis Zhangsun: yes or the 9 seconds for some can be just making sure they are not asleep while for others it becomes about being more awake :)
Crusty Goldshark: those who are self aware and independent of self may be able to incorporate others as self
Crusty Goldshark: Otherwise it is the sleepers leading the dozey
genesis Zhangsun: crashed...would someone mind cutting and pasting what I missed?
Wester Kiranov: you didn't miss anything
Scathach Rhiadra: you came back very quickly:)
genesis Zhangsun: ok :)
genesis Zhangsun: yes but I think that a longer meditiative practice may not be necessary to make the 9 seconds more about wakefulness as opposed to preventing dozing off
genesis Zhangsun: I actually find that it is when I am able to stop and drop in daily life that I start to pull the thread of my awareness even more than in sitting practice
Crusty Goldshark: Perhaps - a lot of people are just into serotonin release or trance induction and this is harder to achieve in 9 seconds
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Myoko!
Myoko Fhang: Hey guys
genesis Zhangsun: welcome
Crusty Goldshark: Hi Myoko
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Myoko
Crusty Goldshark: We are just describing how best to wake up . . .
genesis Zhangsun: haha I feel bad for people if they have come in for just that aspect but hey whatever gets you here :)
Myoko Fhang: Hahahaha. I am all ears.
Crusty Goldshark: I suggest a lot of music - that'll wake ya . . .
genesis Zhangsun: Well we were discussing benefits of a longer practice as opposed to a longer sitting practice
genesis Zhangsun: [13:46]: I actually find that it is when I am able to stop and drop in daily life that I start to pull the thread of my awareness even more than in sitting practice
Crusty Goldshark: We were?
genesis Zhangsun: well my interp crusty I am sure yours is different :)
Myoko Fhang: I prefer the combination of sitting and trying to be aware.
Myoko Fhang: My sitting gives my daily awarness momentum so to speak.
Crusty Goldshark: sounds good to me
Wester Kiranov: that's a good combination
Myoko Fhang: If I ssit three times a day, I am defenetly much more aware of things.
Crusty Goldshark: yes
Wester Kiranov: for how long at a time do you sit, typically?
Myoko Fhang: About 45 to 60 min if times alow it.
Crusty Goldshark: not 27 Secs? Gosh knew I was underdoing something . .
Myoko Fhang: Oh...I try to take those short meditations as often as I can, typically when walking.
Myoko Fhang: To the kitchen, post office and so on...
genesis Zhangsun: well Crusty I think we all know that it is not about the number of seconds
genesis Zhangsun: that is pretty arbitrary :)
Myoko Fhang: I think it is very personal how things work. Some people get lot from sitting long hours, personally I get more from trying to stay aware in everyday routines.
Crusty Goldshark: agreed
Crusty Goldshark: that is why 9 seconds of unawreness is a better form of meditation ;)
Myoko Fhang: Hahahaha
Wester Kiranov: so - 45 minutes three times a day is not "sitting long hours" for you? I would not know where to find the time.
Myoko Fhang: Oh it\s not so hard when you get used to it. Most people spend more time watching TV.
Myoko Fhang: Or eat...
Wester Kiranov: Eating can be very meditative
Crusty Goldshark: Ah yes eating meditation
Crusty Goldshark: And Mindful channel hopping - like watching monkey chatter . . .
Myoko Fhang: Hahahaa....me too!
Myoko Fhang: Some times I wish I had cable...
genesis Zhangsun: so perhaps we are all saying that it isn't about what you do but how you do it :)
Crusty Goldshark: You could practice visualizaution of Tantric Cable services?
Crusty Goldshark: yes genesis
genesis Zhangsun: and being respectful of other people's paths ;)
Wester Kiranov: sorry, have to go now, RL interfering
genesis Zhangsun: bye Wester!
Wester Kiranov: namaste
Myoko Fhang: Bye wester
Crusty Goldshark: only if they are on the path and if they are they have no need for repect
genesis Zhangsun: I have to take off too!
Crusty Goldshark: Bye
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, 9 seconds or an hour , you can have the same experience of awareness
Myoko Fhang: Bye Gen
genesis Zhangsun: Going to the Kira Cafe!
genesis Zhangsun: You are welcome to join me :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Gen
genesis Zhangsun: bye Scat
genesis Zhangsun: bye Crusty :)
Crusty Goldshark: bye everyone be kind to the non-fish
genesis Zhangsun: Bye Myoko!