2008.12.02 13:00 - Dialogue Part III: Pema and Stim

The Guardian this session was genesis Zhangsun.  The comments below are hers.

 This was the third dialogue between Pema and Stim.  This dialogue responds to an email sent out by Pema last week.  The email is included below.

Hi All,

Why do we play as Being, and why do we do it in Second Life?

We have heard several ever shorter answers to the first question:
we combine explorations in science, philosophy, contemplation;
we drop what we have to see what we are;
we trade duration for frequency;
we appreciate appearance;
we see;
we be

with the "we" shifting, starting out with our usual identification
with who we think we are, and moving to a "we" that is closer to
Being iself.

But what about the second question, why do this in Second Life?
Sure, it is fun, and sure, it is convenient: we can log in from
anywhere, at any time.  But there is something more to the use
of SL, or any virtual world for that matter.

The more time I am spending in SL, the more I realize its great
opportunities for celebration, and its great limitations for any
form of traditional contemplative practice.  I had no idea about
either of those in April when PaB was born, but during the eight
months since then this has become more and more clear to me.
Let me summarize; I look forward to your feedback!


1. From Celebration to Limitations to Celebration

Any long and serious contemplative training path starts and ends
with celebration.  The first step is a celebration of exploring
anything at all, concerning the nature of reality.  They can take
the form of sitting on a cushion and doing breathing exercises,
or of following any other relatively simple prescription for an
initial calming of the mind.  We simply celebrate that there is
a path to follow, a way into seeing and living reality.

After that, when we get deeper into particular forms of practice,
we run into all kinds of obstacles, each of us in our own way,
and it is then essential to have a teacher guide us, in the type
of close personal contact that is possible in RL, but very hard
to imagine happening in SL.

And finally, at the end of a traditional contemplative training,
we may come home to the market place, seeing everything in the
light of Being, in the open empty clarity of Being.  Celebrating
the end of the path is again possible in SL, just like celebrating
entering the path is.


2. From Surprise to Awe

Seeing this three-fold structure was quite a surprise for me,
but the more I saw this, the more it seemed natural and right.

Dropping our *daily* concerns we can do without much personal
guidance; entering initial forms of sitting meditation we can do
in a friendly group in SL.  And indeed, there are several such
groups, fortunately, in SL, Zen Retreat being one of them.

Dropping our *practice* concerns is another move that we can
do without much personal guidance, in a friendly group in SL;
this is the awe-fully radical notion behind PaB, and behind
other groups in SL, such as Avastu's group.

Anything in between, the whole spectrum from western therapy to
advanced meditative practices, requires more than an environment
in which the typists behind the avatars are anonymous and where
there is no eye contact, no voice contact, no body language.


3. Oh yes, Oh no, Oh . . . WHAT ?!?

I expect that most people will agree that, yes, one can enter a
path of practice in SL, and no, that one cannot really progress
very far on such a path solely in SL, exchanging only text chat.

In fact, on more than one occasion in this PaB email group have
we talked about the potential dangers and drawbacks of dealing
with deeply emotional states, with strong personal elation and
depression and the question of how, if at all, we can give each
other advice in such matters.  Speaking for myself, the longer
I am in SL, the more I am learning to listen while avoiding the
temptation to give advice, simply because I really don't know
whom I am talking to on the other end.

So yes, SL is great for entering a path of reality exploration,
and no, SL is the wrong vehicle for most of the middle parts of
such a path.  But can SL be a tool for starting at the end of
that kind of path?

Any normal, rational, sane response would be: no, of course not!
If such a limited environment as SL is only good enough to get
out of our daily rut, to start sitting and breathing in a more
relaxed way, without much further potential for deepening a lived
exploration, how can you possibly expect that the very pinnacle
of such an exploration will become accessible again for SL?

Good question!  I invite you all to reflect for a while on how
truly shocking it is what we are trying to do in Play as Being:

 We leapfrog all forms of practice done by all great practitioners
 in all traditions that have ever existed, and we claim that it is
 meaningful to start at their end, to make their end our beginning.

 o o o o o

 o o o o o

 o o o o o


4. No Teacher, No Experiment, Nothing Other-Worldly

I invite you all to respond, after reflecting on the most
radical nature of our Play as Being initiative.  And let me
throw out three more talking points: no teacher, no experiment,
nothing other-worldly.

-- in this most radical approach, their cannot be a teacher or guru,
  since in this view there are no beings, not even any awake beings,
  no beings to help other beings and no beings that can be helped,
  there is only the emptiness and openness and clarity of Being;

-- in this most radical approach, we are not conducting an experiment,
  strictly speaking, but rather we are celebrating what is, as it is,
  with no goal and no expectation, no hope, no fear, and no us either;

-- in this most radical approach, there is still the appearance of the
  whole world, us included, so nothing has changed and everything has
  changed, we find ourselves back in the market place, empty handed.


5. From ES to BS, from Enlightened Seeing to Being Seeing

Finally, to help clarify some of what I have tried to point out here,
it may help to get a sense of what is close to the end of the path, by
reading "Imagine You’re Enlightened", by Ken McLeod, at the web site

http://www.thebuddhadharma.<wbr/>com/issues/2007/fall/imagine.<wbr/>php

This is a beautifully written example of some of the later stages of a
path of practice, where still a personal teacher is absolutely essential,
as the writer points out.  Therefore, I suggest you to read this article
for inspiration, not for complete emulation if you don't have a qualified
teacher to guide you.  But it gives you a sense of what such later stages
can look like.  And it also can give you a perspective of where PaB fits
in, as an even later stage that is no longer a stage, but rather the end
point -- paradoxically in all respects, since it is endless and pointless
and pathless in just letting Being Be.

I feel that this article may help us, given as it talks directly about
two aspects of Being: Commitment Being and Awareness Being.  In the
traditional way, commitment comes first, and awareness comes much later.
In our crazy way, we start with awareness right away.  But we are not
completely crazy, and we have to come to terms as to what it may mean
to do so.  Let's talk!


Thankfully Yours on this Thanksgiving Day in Middle North America,

Pema

I enter and quite a crowd has gathered for this third session...by the time people get settled I count fifteen present.

Wol Euler: hello maxine, gen
Stim Morane: Perhaps we should just take a nap then.
Wol Euler: ;)
Maxine Walden: hi, Wol, Gen, Stim, Becka
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Stim, Wol, Becka, Fael
Stim Morane: Hi Gen
Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine, Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Maxine
Becka Finesmith: Hi Maxine, Gen
Maxine Walden: hi, Fael
Becka Finesmith: JohnBoy
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Scathach
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Maxine, Gen
Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
Wol Euler: good evening Mr. Pera.
Maxine Walden: hi, Scathach, nice to meet you
Pema Pera: Good morning everbody :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Pema:)
Stim Morane: Hi Pema
Maxine Walden: oh, hi, Pema
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pema!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Maxine Walden: Hope you are feeling rested, Pema, now in Japan
Fael Illyar: Hi Fefonz :)
Pema Pera: oh sure, jetlag is a kind of dream yoga :)
Wol Euler: heheheh
Maxine Walden: pleasant dreams!
Fefonz Quan: Hello all
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Fefonz!
Maxine Walden: hi Fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Febonz
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: Hi Tarmel :)
Wol Euler: hello tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone
Stim Morane: Hi Tarmel
Faenik: Erm... Wasn't there supposed to be a dialog today?
Wol Euler looks around.
Maxine Walden: that was my understanding as well, Fael
Becka Finesmith: and mine
Fael Illyar: Hi Gilles :)
Wol Euler: hello gilles
Pema Pera: unfortunately, my MacBook pro freezes up irregularly
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: which means I can't type anything for full minute (!)
Becka Finesmith: Must be a MAC feature ;)
Pema Pera: and what is worse, I miss some sentences
Pema Pera: it got worse after I updated to the new version
Faenik: why not?
Gilles Kuhn: greetings all
Becka Finesmith: Are you going to do the dialogue in voice?
Fael Illyar: make sure it's not thinking you've got too much texture memory.
Pema Pera: I'll talk with the LL folks soon about what to do about this "known problem"
Pema Pera: meanwhile, I'll occasionally IM some of you for missing lines . . . .
Fael Illyar: it tends to require 4-5x as much main memory for the texture memory it uses
genesis Zhangsun: shall we begin?
Pema Pera: yes, let's!
Fael Illyar: occasional freezing sounds like it's swapping :)
genesis Zhangsun: so just for clarity Pema the first 30 minutes will be dialogue
Pema Pera: So Stim and I will talke for a while, and then we will open up the floor (and the pond) for general disussion
Pema Pera: yes, thanks Gen :)

And so the dialogue begins...

Pema Pera: I suggested as a starting point the paragraphs from one of my earlier emails
Pema Pera: that has come up now a few times:
Pema Pera: We leapfrog all forms of practice done by all great practitioners in all traditions that have ever existed, and we claim that it is meaningful to start at their end, to make their end our beginning.
Pema Pera: Stim made a comment about that, by email. Stim, would you like to start here?
Stim Morane: I doubt that I made much of a comment, but rather just raised the question of what this means.
Pema Pera: for one thing, it does not mean that we should ignore or "skip" anything
Pema Pera: skipping in the sense of starting at the beginning and then leaving out something
Pema Pera: not that kind of shortcut
Pema Pera: rather
Pema Pera: if anyone has a path they are happy with, a path of practice and exploration
Stim Morane: have you frozen, Pema?
Pema Pera: then I suggest that in addition, in parallel, they can also play with the notion of starting at the end, or better: take into account that we are already at the end, and that you can see that
Stim Morane: oops
Pema Pera: no, not yet, Stim :)
Stim Morane: sounds interesting
Pema Pera: and if someone has not path, that's equally fine, that it is possible to just start looking at the end
Pema Pera: it is not exclusive but complementary
Pema Pera: does that seem right?
Stim Morane: I tend to think that people start where they are. With the kind of mind they have at that time.
Pema Pera: but that can also be taken in two ways: with what/where they think they are, and with what/where they really are
Pema Pera: and I suggest we do both simulatenously
Stim Morane: Yes, as for the latter aspect, that certainly must be respected and acknowledged.
Stim Morane: but of course that applies to more traditional approaches to study as well.
Pema Pera: yes. and the practical question is twofold:
Faenik: ah :)
Pema Pera: how to respect the more traditional approaches, especially the ones you may already be engaged in
Pema Pera: and at the same time how to let this "end of the path" be more than an idea
Pema Pera: or to sum up: to be true to traditions and to be true to what is
Pema Pera: Do you think we can do that here?
Stim Morane: of course, but again... to whatever extent a given person is capable of at a given time
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: but from the "end" view, that last question should not be a barrier
Stim Morane: feel free to elaborate
Pema Pera: so there are two very different views
Pema Pera: the relative one, from the more traditional path
Pema Pera: and the absolute one, from starting at the end
Pema Pera: (words are tricky here, and far too limited, we should come back to these clumsy definitions when needed)
Pema Pera: so in the relative picture, of course what you said is right: Stim Morane: of course, but again... to whatever extent a given person is capable of at a given time
Pema Pera: but at the same time, in the absolute picture, there are no such limits
Pema Pera: there are no persons, as you have often emphasized within such a picture
Stim Morane: yes, then the absolute view, there is also no need to awaken
Pema Pera: yes
Stim Morane: in the absolute view there is no being
Stim Morane: no issue
Pema Pera: (frozen for a minute, sorry)
Pema Pera: yes, that is crucial
Pema Pera: so we should avoid a cross-over language or idea, that the absolute view allows a path . .
Pema Pera: . . . . very tricky not to fall into that language and/or into those ideas
Stim Morane: yes.
Stim Morane: And I think the notion of "starting at the end" falls prey to that mistake
Pema Pera: so my "start at the end" may be misleading
Pema Pera: ah, yes, same thoughts :)
Pema Pera: "be at the end"
Stim Morane: better... but maybe not very exciting
Pema Pera: or "be, in a way that may seem `at the end'" from the relative viewpoint
Pema Pera: that's okay, Stim
Pema Pera: :-)
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: as soon as one gets a taste of it, it's VERY exciting and totally NON exciting, at the same time
Pema Pera: so I'm not worried about that
Stim Morane: "as soon as"?
Pema Pera: the "Play" in PaB and the group will together give us enough excitement
Pema Pera: well, yes, from the relative point of view "as soon as" it starts to sink in more
Stim Morane: :)
Pema Pera: of courese not fro the absolute point of view
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: so the biggest challenge is how to combine the two
Stim Morane: I would suggest just relaxing
Stim Morane: one of the hallmarks of being awake is that there is no concern about being awake
Pema Pera: yes, I can see that -- but how do you translate that in what we are doing here?
Stim Morane: good question
Pema Pera: we have two totally different views
Wol Euler: hello dacsi, welcome back.
Pema Pera: so to combine them here seems impossible, it's an enormous koan
dacsi Rexen: hello
dacsi Rexen: all
Pema Pera: from the relative point of view, the absolute one does not make sense
Pema Pera: Hi Dacsi!
Stim Morane: my point was simply that the notion of combining them is not part of an awakened view
Stim Morane: there's nothing to combine
Pema Pera: and from the absolute view, there is no separate relative one
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: combining seems impossible either way
Stim Morane: :)
Pema Pera: for different reasons
Pema Pera: from relative, there is no absolute, it is nonsense
Pema Pera: from absolute, there is no separate relative, it is already included
Pema Pera: is that a reasonable summary, you think?
Stim Morane: Yes. But let's start somewhere else: which you like to talk a bit about why you thought of this idea in the first place?
Stim Morane: *would you
Pema Pera: in both my own explorations and in what I understand from talking with others and reading the literature
Pema Pera: the crucial point seems to be that all our attempts at waking up are misdirected
Pema Pera: and it seems that we can drop all that effort
Pema Pera: but the question is how
Pema Pera: that is the "content" answer to your question
Pema Pera: there is also the question of how to do that, I mean, in what setting
Pema Pera: and there I see PaB as novel, in that it is peer-based, not teacher-student
Stim Morane: yes
Wol Euler smies and raises an eyebrow.
Faenik: なるほど^^
Pema Pera: Do you want to add more, Stim, or shall we throw the floor open?
Stim Morane: As you know, I always try to teach in at "top down" way... starting from the highest understanding that a given person can use properly. This is very important to me. But note, it's different from climbing that a group of people with different aptitudes and experience can all "start of the (absolute) end".
Stim Morane: *claiming that
Pema Pera: so let me try to reformulate, refine
Pema Pera: a heterogeneous group might be able to hold a view in which there is no need for starting/reaching, and they may then do a kind of joint research, as peers, to clarify what that could possibly mean
Stim Morane: yes.
Stim Morane: I certainly think that everyone should start with that view, and that is in fact how I teach.
Stim Morane: But what it means to people is the question.
Stim Morane: It will change drastically as they proceed.
Pema Pera: oh, yes
Pema Pera: it has to
Pema Pera: Shall we invite everyone to join us now?
Stim Morane: Sure

The session opens to the floor...I am itching to ask a question.

genesis Zhangsun: So I have a question
Pema Pera: (and if any other pair of you would like to hold a similar debate, please speak up!)
genesis Zhangsun: you said Stim that the notion of a combination (absolute and relative) is not part of an awakened view, what is then part of an "awakened view"
genesis Zhangsun: or is it a view at all?
Stim Morane: I cannot answer that.
genesis Zhangsun: ok well it sounds very mysterious
Stim Morane: It is not a view in any ordinary sense ... nor is there someone who has it.
Stim Morane: we're stuck with ordinary language, pressing it into a nonordinary role
genesis Zhangsun: yes I can appreciate that
Gilles Kuhn: btw could you define awakening i know that this notion is important in oriental tradition and it exist too in plato and in western mystic but frankly has a rationnalist it smell dusty and well obscurantist to me
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.

Teachers and Students or Peer Research?

Maxine Walden: what do we do with the likelihood that most of us consider Pema and Stim as teachers, so that when one is in the group we feel we do have a teacher?
Stim Morane: Ick
Stim Morane: :)
Fefonz Quan: ?
genesis Zhangsun: how do others feel?
Stim Morane: I preferred the "friend" model. But it's true, I do use the word "teach"
genesis Zhangsun: do you all perceive Stim and Pema as our teachers?
Gilles Kuhn: ell has a teacher you alway learn from good student and so they became teachers too
Wol Euler: some pupils are more equal than others ...
Gilles Kuhn: well*
Fefonz Quan: "guides" would be prefered by me
Stim Morane: a good choice
Fael Illyar doesn't especially see anyone as a teacher.
Stim Morane: I tend to think of it as telling someone new in town how to find the post office
Pema Pera: I like "mentor" and I hope we all become more and more mentors to each other -- as we are already beginning to do, I feel
Wol Euler nods
Gilles Kuhn: i dont see anybody as guide teacher i can admit but mostly i see people as intelctuals equals (when they indeed are...)
Fael Illyar: but ... that's just my approach to life in general.
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I see all as teachers & students... [have a RL teacher also...]
Becka Finesmith: Pema has given me plenty to think about but equally I've "learned" from others experiences (Like Fael for example)
genesis Zhangsun: I see all people as equal intellectually is irrelevant to me
Pema Pera: Maxine, you have brought up this "teacher" idea several times now, perhaps you can tell us why that is so important to you?
genesis Zhangsun: I agree with Gaya
Wol Euler: hello cal
Pema Pera: Hi Cal!
Becka Finesmith: Hi Cal
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Cal!
Gilles Kuhn: i dont say people are intelectualy equals but pass a certain level i consider people as such
Maxine Walden: It just seems to me that when either of you is in the group that the dynamic of the group changes, and we all begin to listen to you
Stim Morane: Hi Cal
Caledonia Heron: hi there :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Wol Euler: true, max.
Stim Morane: it's just our avatars
Stim Morane: :)
Maxine Walden: but maybe no one else has that perception
genesis Zhangsun: I have to say max that my perception has changed with time
genesis Zhangsun: I think in the beginning I felt as you point out more of a teacher/student dynamic
Maxine Walden: I do not mind the mentor/teacher role at all, but just felt it important to check out what others are experiencing
Tarmel Udimo: it feels like we're all explorers some have been exploring longer others less so
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Maxine, what Pema and Stim says makes me stop and think a lot ^^
genesis Zhangsun: I began to drop teacher/student idea because I found it distracting
Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel
genesis Zhangsun: this is about your own exploration as Tarmel says
Pema Pera: Hi Adelene!
Wol Euler: hello adelene
genesis Zhangsun: to find the teacher within
Tarmel Udimo: so those who have been exploring longer perhaps have had more insights into this form of exploration
Fael Illyar: Hi Adele :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: not to get too corny
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Adelene
Gilles Kuhn: by exploration you mean reflection ?
Adelene Dawner: hi all
Tarmel Udimo: however it is always acknowledged that insight takes place in an instant
Stim Morane: yes
Tarmel Udimo: so anyone can then impart it hopefully ie why the group peer thingy works so well
Maxine Walden: agree, Wol
Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel, and then we have to figure our what "impart" can possibly mean :-)
Tarmel Udimo: ahhh I favour the word transmission myself
Tarmel Udimo: just to add something to the mix :)
Faenik loves wells!
Gaya Ethaniel leaves quietly as RL calls...
Wol Euler: bye gaya
genesis Zhangsun: What about going back to the idea of starting at the end
Gilles Kuhn: the end of what ?
genesis Zhangsun: you said Stim that one of the hallmarks of being awake is that there is no concern with being awake
Stim Morane: yes
Stim Morane: no bias
genesis Zhangsun: I sort of feel like I missed the whole show :)
genesis Zhangsun: not sure what is happening/happened
Stim Morane: I feel the same way
genesis Zhangsun: that is a bit of an exaggeration :)
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Stim Morane: But it's ok
Stim Morane: And we still haven't addressed the point Giles raised earlier, on "rationality".
Gilles Kuhn: this concept of awakening can he correspond to intellectual critic stage ?
Stim Morane: Maybe another time?
Pema Pera: yes, that is a big topic
Pema Pera: we can have a discussion here with Gilles and one other person, about that topic
Pema Pera: it will need a lot of unpacking, and pointing out what it is we are trying to do here
Gilles Kuhn: gosh i will invite sokal and briquemont ;-)))

Gilles should by the way do a dialogue on this point perhaps?

genesis Zhangsun: so about the starting at the end...
genesis Zhangsun: if we then didn't notice the process happening then what do we notice?
genesis Zhangsun: that we are living better, treating others well?
Stim Morane: you are always at the End
Tarmel Udimo: I agree
Fefonz Quan: i am confused with that too
Stim Morane: but there is, for some purposes, the additional issue of not being clear re that
genesis Zhangsun: what the heck am I doing here then?!
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Stim Morane: the resolution, however, is not that "you succeed" ...
genesis Zhangsun: ah yes playing :)
genesis Zhangsun: celebrating
Stim Morane: maybe ...
Wol Euler: appreciating.
Stim Morane: I think to really adddress your question, we would have to be much more concrete about a lot of things.
Tarmel Udimo: reminding
Maxine Walden: RL calls, bye all
Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care
Stim Morane: yes, i'm in the same boat
genesis Zhangsun: bye Maxine
Tarmel Udimo: bye
Stim Morane: I will have to leave in a minute ...
Gilles Kuhn is readying torpedoes ;-)
genesis Zhangsun: ok bye Stim!
Fefonz Quan: For me it is also (and has been for a while) hard to get in term with the nnnnnotion of (there is nowhere to go/advance"

Yes, I agree Fefonz it seems we are talking here about a "process" and "how to proceed" and yet at the same time saying there is nowhere to go, nothing to do...I wonder if this is simply a problem of speaking between the relative and absolute or if there is something I am just clueless about completely...probably both :)

genesis Zhangsun: (in one minute)
Fefonz Quan: Bye Stim
Stim Morane: :)
Tarmel Udimo: bye
Stim Morane: Bye!
Faenik: なるほど^^
Pema Pera: I have to leave too, there is the Kira alumni meeting starting in the Kira Cafe, right now, and everyone is welcome to come over there -- we can just continue our discussion if you like -- or not, as the mood strikes us :)
Wol Euler: bye pema, or maybe see you in a mo.
Pema Pera: Thank you for coming here, I hope it was as much fun and interesting for you as it was for me :-)
Fefonz Quan: bye pema
Gilles Kuhn wavz
Fael Illyar: Well, time for me to head to bed, it's 0:00 here :)
Tarmel Udimo: it was always
Pema Pera waves to everyone
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema
Fael Illyar: See you later Everyone :)
Fefonz Quan: good night Fael!
Wol Euler: goodnight fael
Wol Euler: take care
Wol Euler: bye gilles
genesis Zhangsun: Ok see you all!
Wol Euler: bey gen
genesis Zhangsun: going over to the Cafe
genesis Zhangsun: bye Wol!