2008.12.01 13:00 - What Time Does the Dolphin Perform?

That afternoon, Stim was the guardian on call. He later sent me, Pema, the chat log, which I posted. I also added the title, but it was a tough choice. I thought about "a transition to more full appreciation" and "We Discuss, Play, and Gradually `See'" which were both phrases by Stim. But then I came across the sentence about dolphins, uttered by a new visitor. I had no other choice. (Updated and extended.)

Stim Morane: Hi Scathach, Wester, Wol
Wol Euler: hello everyone!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello everyone
Wol Euler: ah, hello claire
Claire Beltran: Hello...
Wol Euler: new hair, wester?
Wester Kiranov: Hi everybody
Wester Kiranov: yes, i had a haircut ;)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: looks good.
Stim Morane: Hi Avel
Avel Susanowa: hi Stim
Stim Morane: and Claire
Wol Euler: hello avel
Avel Susanowa: bonjour à vous tous
Claire Beltran: Hello everyone...
Wol Euler: Avel, do you know the Simbolic translator?
Wol's translator: Avel, savez-vous la symbolique de traducteur?
Wol Euler: you're seeing it in operation :)
Wol's translator: vous voyez en fonctionnement:)
Avel Susanowa: I am sorry, I am too new in this world and I don't know
Wol Euler: I will give you a landmark to a store where you can get a free translator
Wol's translator: Je vais vous donner un point de repère à un magasin où vous pouvez obtenir un traducteur gratuit
Wol Euler: if you wait until the end of hte session, we can go together
Wol's translator: Si vous attendez jusqu'à la fin de la session HTE, nous pouvons aller de pair
Wol Euler: I will show you how it works
Wol's translator: Je vais vous montrer comment il fonctionne
Avel Susanowa: merci beaucoup
Stim Morane: Sounds interesting. I was not aware of this.
Wol Euler: de rien :)
Wol's translator: de rien:)
Avel Susanowa: Thank you
Wol Euler: oh yes, it's great. free, and speaks abt two dozen languages quite well
Wol's translator: oh oui, c'est super. libre, et parle abt deux douzaines de langues assez bien
Avel Susanowa: I notice
Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz, welcome
Claire Beltran: I think perhaps I shouldn't be here now...
Wol Euler: claire, why?
Wol's translator: Claire, pourquoi?
Avel Susanowa: no thank you
Fefonz Quan: HI all
Stim Morane: How many of you are completely new to Play as Being?
Avel Susanowa: only 15 jours
Scathach Rhiadra: well i have never been here before
Wester Kiranov: have been here a couple of times
Stim Morane: You are all welcome.
Avel Susanowa: Thank you
Stim Morane: In the past, we have been directing newcomers to this website: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
Colin Cascarino: hello everyone
Stim Morane: But lately, a wiki has become an important source of new postings
Avel Susanowa: hello
Stim Morane: Hi Colin
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello
Colin Cascarino: may I ask what is happening in this circle?
Stim Morane: Please refer to the website I mentioned for basic information.
Stim Morane: The basic emphasis is in appreciative awareness, Colin.
Stim Morane: The notion is that this will help open up an access to certain features of reality.
Colin Cascarino: sounds like someone has been reading Latour
Avel Susanowa: I don't notice the basic world
Stim Morane: No, not much postmodern thought here.
Colin Cascarino: NRT
Stim Morane: But I suppose there is some sort of overlap.
Stim Morane: ANyway, perhaps it's best to explain by doing.
Stim Morane: Do any of you old timers have anything you'd like to report or discuss?
Fefonz Quan: i had some experience to share about recent play as being session and SL notion
Avel Susanowa: Could you explain please
Stim Morane: You have a question, Avel?
Avel Susanowa: Is it a place for meditation, philosophy ?
Stim Morane: Those are certainly related.
Wol Euler: yes, indeed.
Avel Susanowa: What kind of philosophy ?
Stim Morane: But while philosophy tends to be abstract, and meditation involves long periods of training and practice, this group is concerned with approaches that are lighter and more direct.
Wol Euler: hello fael
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
Avel Susanowa: hi
Fefonz Quan: HI Fael
Wester Kiranov: hi
Avel Susanowa: direct ? how ?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello
Wol Euler: colin, right-click on a cushion and select "sit" to sit on it.
Stim Morane: Fefonz ...?
Stim Morane: Hi Fae/!
Fefonz Quan: So, in a recent seesion of PasB i've practiced, i've been in a cafe in town
Stim Morane: Fael!
Stim Morane: Yes?
Fefonz Quan: and trying to look at people and tables and all as appearances, i had a strange feeling it reminded me of other experience
Stim Morane: Please continue
Fefonz Quan: and that is - the - quite new to me - experience of SL
Stim Morane: interesting
Fefonz Quan: where here it's trivial for us all that we walk around and see only virtual appearances
Stim Morane: You think SL is corrupting your perceptions of RL? :)
Fefonz Quan: Nope :)
Wol Euler: surely not, surely enriching them?
Stim Morane: :)
Fefonz Quan: but i thought that trying to see things as appearance only gave me some dream-like feeeling of walking in a virtual world
Faenik: なるほど^^
Fefonz Quan: though it felt like i "imagine" it and put it on the real world
Fefonz Quan: it;s not that i can tell i can really see reality as appearance, not yet though :-)
Stim Morane: I'm sorry, are you saying that in fact seeing things as appearance became more than just the "dream-like" version?
Fefonz Quan: it was in real life, not dream, but it felt foe a few second like watching a cafe in SL
Stim Morane: Yes.
Stim Morane: So was that disturbing?
Fefonz Quan: it was disturbing, because it felt like a fantasy, and also seeing people moving as "puppets" was disturbing anad felt wrong or artificial
Stim Morane: Yes, I understand now. That is very normal, and not likely to persist indefinitely.
Faenik: なるほど^^
Stim Morane: It arises simply because one is doing something unusual, and not taking perceived things in the ordinary way, with all the usual associations and judgments.
Stim Morane: The question is whether, over time, it will also enable you to appreciate an additional richness to things, a richness that is usually overlooked.
Avel Susanowa: do you think really that this virtual world is like the real one ?
Fefonz Quan: that is a big question.
Wol Euler: avel, yes I do. SL is very real.
Stim Morane: The same dislocation occurs with traditional meditation training, again, only sometimes, and as a transition to more full appreciation.
Avel Susanowa: But we don't have dreams
Fael Illyar: alike, yet different.
Wol Euler: we are as real here, typing, as we are "outside" speaking.
Fael Illyar: SL _is_ a dream, worldwide, shared, dream.
Fefonz Quan: for now it felt more like a game i play with reality, like that childs game where you watch someone from a far and "order" him to move his hand, and when he does you feel like you've done it, but infact we know that it not correct
Avel Susanowa: but if you travel, you see many sexy shops, capital anywhere
Fefonz Quan: i'm not sure we're as real typing as speaking
Fefonz Quan: , Wol
Stim Morane: The question of how real SL is seems very controversial.
Wol Euler smiles. For certain values of "real" perhaps.
Faenik: indeed?
Fefonz Quan: if we can an arm of one of the avatart, it won't really matter, would it?
Wol Euler: there are real people here, none of us is a software robot.
Stim Morane: I would like to encourage people to live more fully in ordinaryl life.
Wol Euler: real emotions, real love and real losses.
Wester Kiranov: we might all mean something very different by real, or a dream
Stim Morane: I hope that our meetings here assist that.
Stim Morane: Yes, Wester, that is likely.
Stim Morane: In any case, as I say, it's a controversial point.
Fefonz Quan: cut - the arm - i meant
Stim Morane: I doubt we will resolve it.
Fael Illyar: Hi Moon :)
Stim Morane: Hi Moon.
Wol Euler: hello moon
Avel Susanowa: hello
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello moon:)
Wester Kiranov: hi
Fefonz Quan: hello moon
Moon Fargis: so many new faces:)
Fefonz Quan: it seems like a big difference, since here we are not attached to our appearances at all
Fael Illyar: Hi Isen :)
Isen Enzo: Yo!
Isen Enzo: Hey!
Fefonz Quan: whle on RL, we are almost hard-wired to them
Stim Morane: Hi Isen
Fael Illyar: no physical attachment, at least.
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Isen:)
Wol Euler: latteman returns! hello isen
Moon Fargis pokes claire
Isen Enzo: digital attachment!
Faenik: why not?
Claire Beltran: I'm sorry, Moon... I'm just a little distracted now.
Fael Illyar: mental attachment is a different story :)
Fefonz Quan: right, it is different
Isen Enzo: Lottsa room here!
Fael Illyar would like to announce that Faenik will repeat things people say on channel 33.
Stim Morane: again, the question of how real SL is is so tangled up in different perspectives and "assuming what is to be proven" that i doubt it will be resolved.
Wol Euler pulls moon up onto her knee
Stim Morane: But I think we can all agree that there may be value in meeting "here", value that contributes to real life.
Fael Illyar: Well, SL is real in the sense that it is part of RL.
Stim Morane: As virtual reality technology continues to both improve and also infiltrate more of ordinarly life, the other question will become increasingly pressing and perplexing.
Stim Morane: Yes, Fael, I agree. But I won't press even that point.
Isen Enzo: perplexing
Fefonz Quan: But i think my point is more into the RL experience
Fefonz Quan: the RL nature, not the SL nature
Stim Morane: Yes.
Moon Fargis: well
Moon Fargis: i think differnet
Moon Fargis: SL nature is your Rl nature too
Moon Fargis: becasue you invented it
Moon Fargis: it came from you
Wol Euler: yep
Fefonz Quan: differnet like internet?:)
Stim Morane: So I recommend that you go slow, don't press too much. Seeing things as direct appearance will gradually come to be truly "appreciative", not just a dislocation.
Moon Fargis: reminds me on the golden sentence of SL: "When reality is an illusion, and let's all agree that SL is an illusion... we are also aware we can call illusions reality - therefore, SL is also reality!"
Stim Morane: It's an interesting comment you've made, bringing SL itself in.
Stim Morane: Everything is "real"
Stim Morane: The question is what we attribute to things
Stim Morane: Sometimes we invest something with a status it doesn't really have.
Stim Morane: This is where contemplative traditions came in: seeing what is there, no more, no less.
Avel Susanowa: we think and we can realize ?
Stim Morane: We discuss, try out things (play), and gradually "see".
Moon Fargis: ah well in a way we are also slaves.. willing slaves
Moon Fargis: to sl
Fefonz Quan: SLaves ?
Moon Fargis: lets take one word for example
Moon Fargis: onigokko
Wol Euler laughs.
Wol Euler: the little devil.
Wol Euler: stop
Stim Morane: Yes, all too true, Moon. Oh, SLaves ... yes, that too!
Wol Euler: but the same happens in RL too. The bell rings so we all stand up. Sales start so we all go downtown.
Fefonz Quan: that was hilarious - but what was it ?
Stim Morane: SL is not so unusual. People can become immersed in almost anything. For good or ill.
Wol Euler: my neighbour spends the hours I spend here, watching TV.
Stim Morane: But awakeness is also possible, and actually aided by learning from the slavery.
Faenik: could be
Moon Fargis: for me it crashed my client
Wol Euler: which of us is being more real?
Stim Morane: Please say more ...
Stim Morane: Hi don. THat was quite a crash
Wol Euler: well, if "reality" means being physically embedded in someting, active, then clearly neither of us is "being real"
don Swansong: -
Fefonz Quan: why not Wol?
Moon Fargis: ahh did others crashed too ?
Wol Euler: I would say that Sl is superior to television, I am at least making up my own words in response to your personally-made-up words too.
Stim Morane: no, Moon, it was a more "physical" crash
Stim Morane: Yes, granted.
Moon Fargis: stim: haha but it worked?:)
Fael Illyar: SL has mostly replaced reading fiction books or watching films for me.
Stim Morane: Yes
Moon Fargis: *giggles*
Fefonz Quan: sure, compared to TV
Wol Euler: and compared to reading books?
Wol Euler: is that more real than SL?
don Swansong: can someone help me sit down, im on a mac with no right click and sore feet
Wol Euler: ah, ok.
Moon Fargis: eekk
Wol Euler: Apple-click
Wol Euler: same as right-click
Moon Fargis: yes acs forgot the rmb
Moon Fargis: macs
Wol Euler: right :)
don Swansong: thanks dude
Stim Morane: :)
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
Fefonz Quan: but apple-bite? sin't it more "real"
Moon Fargis whispers "Amiga rulles^^§
Wol Euler tweaks Moon's ear.
don Swansong: what time does the dolphin perform
Stim Morane: I see I have failed in trying to tiptoe past the "reality of SL" issue.
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: Oh well.
Moon Fargis: stim.. youre doing a great work :)
Wol Euler chuckles and makes apologetic gestures.
Stim Morane: Actually, don ... we don't have a dolphin.
Fefonz Quan: there is no dolphin?
Moon Fargis: nu bu a bear :)
Stim Morane: unless you would like to do the honors
don Swansong: got any fishing rods then?
Wol Euler: though there are dolphin avatars in SL ...
Stim Morane: jump in!
Fael Illyar: Stim, it's like herding cats here :)
Fael Illyar: not quite useful or possible :)
Stim Morane: I am not disparaging the question of how real is virtual reality. I think it will become extremely important over the next few decades.
Stim Morane: I just doubt we can deal with it quickly here.
Wol Euler: true
don Swansong: sorry guys if this is progress were in a sorry state
don Swansong: what happened to people getting together
Stim Morane: But I admit I am concerned about people losing contact with their bodies, their living natures, through too much immersion in mediated realities.
Fael Illyar: we're not getting together?
don Swansong: drinkn real beer
Wol Euler: we do that too, don.
Wester Kiranov: i share your concerns stim
don Swansong: wher
Stim Morane: we are definitely meeting in some important sense. As for the beer ...
Wester Kiranov: it made me want not to come here at all at first
Fefonz Quan: the beer?
Wol Euler: nobody ever said that SL was a replacement for RL.
Wol Euler: why does everyone think it must be either or?
don Swansong: but wheres the bar
Wol Euler: I'll give you a landmark
don Swansong: anyone fancy a pint
Faenik loves wells!
Stim Morane: I'm glad, Wester. But there are many sides to this issue, and I won't push just the one.
Stim Morane: Wol, can you help don find the Kira cafe?
Wol Euler: done it
Stim Morane: oops
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: actually, my own time in SL is up for the moment. I hope you continue to have a good chat!
Moon Fargis: aww
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Stim :)
Wester Kiranov: bye stim
Wol Euler: ok, Ill send you the rest of the log.
Moon Fargis: thanks stim :)
Wol Euler: bye stim
Wester Kiranov: hope to meeet you again soon
Fefonz Quan: Bye Stim!
Stim Morane: Wol, if you are staying, would you send me the rest of the log?
Wol Euler: yep
Stim Morane: Bye everyone!
Stim Morane: Thanks!
Scathach Rhiadra: Bye Stim

Wol Euler appended the rest of the session, in which we discussed names, reality, perception and lawyers for another hour and a half.

Scathach Rhiadra: Bye Stim 
Avel Susanowa: I'll come later with my dreams. Bye. 
Wol Euler: bye avel, take care 
Moon Fargis: brrrr cold 
Fael Illyar: See you later Avel :) 
Moon Fargis: now the question is 
Moon Fargis: anyone dares to click on the ppab sign over there? 
Wol Euler: no. 
Moon Fargis: awwww 
Wol Euler: I shall send that back to you, dear Moon. 
Moon Fargis: so lets talk a bit ^^ 
Moon Fargis: hmmm 
Moon Fargis: how about the being of... 
Moon Fargis: candy... 
Wol Euler: "Stim Morane: But I admit I am concerned about people losing contact with their bodies, their living natures, through too much immersion in mediated realities. Wester Kiranov: i share your concerns stim Wester Kiranov: it made me want not to come here at all at first"
Wol Euler: that's where we were before the convesration turned to beer :) 
Isen Enzo: I have a recent and relevant note... deals with the subject of no real self- no "I".. 
Isen Enzo: Passing it out now.. 
Wol Euler: ty, isen 
Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, but if you want to encourage people to immerse themselves less in mediated realities, you most likely need to use those realities to do that. 
Wester Kiranov: that's true 
Scathach Rhiadra: ty Isen 
Wester Kiranov: but it will also make you bel;ieve in those realities more 
Wester Kiranov: ty isen 
Moon Fargis: well we created the first life reality 
Moon Fargis: and belive in it 
Fefonz Quan: ty isen 
Moon Fargis: as this also can happen with the sl reality 
Isen Enzo: _/!\_ 
Isen Enzo: ... no one at home.... 
Wester Kiranov: do you believe we created ALL of RL? 
Isen Enzo: really... 
Wol Euler: yep 
Wol Euler: with teh possible exeptions of gravity and snow. 
Moon Fargis: ah well in a way bu dont missunderstand this 
Fefonz Quan: which one of we created it? 
Isen Enzo: no we 
Isen Enzo: no I 
Moon Fargis: everyone creates his own whole reality 
Wol Euler: your great-great-great-grandparents and mine 
Isen Enzo: all samesame 
Wol Euler: eveyrhing that you see as a city dweller is artificial. absolutely everyhting. 
Wester Kiranov: isn't there some kind of backdrop to choose from? 
Moon Fargis: by terms and also by being teached 
Wol Euler: our "nature" is the manmade, invented, created stuff that surrounds us. 
Moon Fargis: sure wester... the society always carys their own backdrop 
Fefonz Quan: not the sun, for example 
Moon Fargis: they say: this is blue this is red, this is good this is bad 
Wol Euler: well, yes, we are both exaggerating for effect :) 
Moon Fargis: and so they also create your reaity 
Fefonz Quan: wouldn't our practice and hypothesis apply if we lived in a cave? 
Wester Kiranov: those are just names, that does not relly matter 
Moon Fargis: yes now think away ALL terms 
Moon Fargis: no blue no red no large not ood no bad 
Moon Fargis: ni light no dark 
Wester Kiranov: how can you ever find out something new if you have created it all? 
Moon Fargis: now, yyou create it when you find it as new 
Moon Fargis: by giving it a term a name a color 
Moon Fargis: a feeling a expression 
Moon Fargis: a meaning a use 
Fefonz Quan: so what does "create" ,means 
Fael Illyar: we create parts of our reality by believing. 
Fefonz Quan: but if i just see sometnig without calling it a name, isn't it real? 
Moon Fargis: fefonz: ask yourself.. wat makes you see 
Moon Fargis: your eyes? 
Moon Fargis: what do they tell you ? 
Moon Fargis: colors right? did you learned to see colors? 
Fael Illyar: our reality is a collection of beliefs. 
Moon Fargis: then you already gave it a meaning a creation by seeing it 
Fael Illyar: and each one of us has a different collection 
Moon Fargis: beasue then this thing you see without knowing it has already got a color for you 
Fefonz Quan: they see "colors", but the names are not the issue 
Wester Kiranov: colors aren't real, they are so much shaped by our perceptual apparatus 
Moon Fargis: exactly and thats why we create our own reality 
Wester Kiranov: but light is real 
Fefonz Quan: that's true, but if we go to light and not colors, it is more easy to grasp 
Moon Fargis: and when you ask a blind person ? 
Wester Kiranov: they don't see light, but i don't think they would deny its exuistence 
Fefonz Quan: exactly 
Moon Fargis: ah and what when they do ? 
Fefonz Quan: surely the inner experience of himis different 
Moon Fargis: "ther is nothing becasue i cant see it" 
Wester Kiranov: sorry, have to go 
Fefonz Quan: but if i close my eyes and open them, the table in front of me won't go away 
Moon Fargis: aw ok 
Wester Kiranov: reality of my hubby is interfering 
Wol Euler: heheheheh 
Wester Kiranov: bye 
Moon Fargis: see you later wester 
Wol Euler: bye wester, take care 
Fael Illyar: See you later wester :) 
Fefonz Quan: see you Wester 
Wol Euler: may I ask, it seems to me that the conversations still progressing as though this were either/or. 
Moon Fargis: fefo: ahh not? you know this maybe: when a tree falls in a wood, and noone taken notice of it... did he really felt ? 
Wol Euler: why must one be absolutely true and the other absolutely false? 
Wol Euler: (wrong, invalid, indecent; whatever) 
Moon Fargis: becasue thats the way society works 
Moon Fargis: usual mass society 
Fefonz Quan: well, i know this, and i also know that recent physics proves that nothing happenes unless theer is a measurement 
Wol Euler: recent physics also proves that hte act of measurement falsifies what it measures, because it changes the thing it measures. 
Fael Illyar: measurement ... probably measurement just by a measurement device is not enough :) 
Fefonz Quan: and literally ii also can "say in word" what you say, but to i grasp it really? 
Fefonz Quan: not for now... 
Wol Euler: an interesting turn of phrase. 
Fefonz Quan: "do i grasp..." 
Moon Fargis: ^^ already our eyes are measurement devices 
Moon Fargis: or all of our senses 

Reality, appearance and tables. 

Fefonz Quan: for example, if me and you are looking at the table, we can communicate about it 
Wol Euler: mmhmm, and a thousand optical illusions have proven them unreliable 
Fefonz Quan: how can you and me create the same table? 
Moon Fargis: sure but then be shure everyone sees another table 
Isen Enzo: I'm looking at a pizza slice... 
Wol Euler: we would see different tables even if we were shoulder to shoulder. 
Fefonz Quan: but we can discuss many of its attributes quite successfully. 
Fefonz Quan: we can decide to move it together 
Isen Enzo: has olives.. 
Wol Euler: I am an architect in RL. I see the table's cost and weight, the difficulty of getting it placed near htat bookshelf 
Moon Fargis: fefonz: sure becasue we learned them from socienty 
Isen Enzo: cheese.. 
Moon Fargis: so shapes,terms ..the base is the same 
Fefonz Quan: but what makes the comunication possible if there is nothing there except for "my" creation? 
Wol Euler: bye claire 
Wol Euler: hang on just a moment. 
Moon Fargis: ok 
Fael Illyar: What you see is not the table but an interpretation of the table created by your mind. 
Wol Euler: Can it be that we are all arguing the Devil's Advocat? 
Fefonz Quan: ok. 
Fael Illyar: whether there is a table is irrelevant 
Moon Fargis: maybe :) 
Fefonz Quan: still ok with me 
Wol Euler: right 
Wol Euler: the fact is that people in RL do see RL differently from each other. 
Wol Euler: If that were not true, lawyers would starve to death. 
Fefonz Quan: still agree. 
Wol Euler: and there would be no policemen 
Fefonz Quan: that'l be the day :-) 
Wol Euler: right! 
Fefonz Quan: i still agree with you. 
Wol Euler: because there is no absolute reality. 
Fefonz Quan: but that is my point that bothers me 
Fefonz Quan: we see different perceptions of tables, chairs, etc. 
Wol Euler: ah, then I wasn't paying attention closely enough. I'm sorry. 
Isen Enzo: I had a teacher who had that phrase- "There is no absolute 
Isen Enzo: very zen... 
Moon Fargis: absolutley!:) 
Wol Euler: Isen, come and join us please. this seating arrangement feels like teacher and pupils. 
Fefonz Quan: but the fact that i can communicate with you even a single bit of information that we can agree on 
Wol Euler: thank you :) 
Isen Enzo: sure 
Isen Enzo: sorry 
Isen Enzo: sat over there to face you all. 
Isen Enzo: all my teachers.. 
Wol Euler: :) 
Fefonz Quan: says something about that bit that is not just in "my" or "your" rality, but in both 
Wol Euler: true. 
Fael Illyar: we each have our own but that is not to say there is no overlap :) 
Wol Euler: I don't think anyone would say that the "tree" that we look at has no biological being. 
Fefonz Quan: so for me it contradicts the notion of "bo reality", 
Scathach Rhiadra: you mean like shared reality? 
Moon Fargis: ok here commes a tricky sentence for you fefonz: It doesnt mean that reality doesnt exist when its is a illusion" 
Fefonz Quan: "no" 
Isen Enzo: ah- like SL as an 'illusion'? 
Fefonz Quan: shared reality is a good term here 
Wol Euler: yep 
Isen Enzo: but still a shared reality of sorts? 
Moon Fargis: yes like sl is a illusion 
Wol Euler: a shared _reality_ 
Wol Euler: not a shared illusion :) 
Wol Euler: lol 
Moon Fargis: both wol both ::) 
Wol Euler: oh dear, we tread all over each other verbally 
Isen Enzo: a shared illusory reality? 
Moon Fargis: *giggles* 
Fefonz Quan: but that is the issue - some where there is a bit of information sitting in a computer that says there is a pool here. 
Moon Fargis: fefonz: hehe no 
Fefonz Quan: this bit of informatino is real, and transmitted to all of us 
Wol Euler: yeeees, and? 
Wol Euler: say that we agree on its value. 
Moon Fargis: its just a information that there is something to display on your monitor 
Moon Fargis: YOU say there is a pool there 
Fefonz Quan: so this bit is real, in RL 
Fefonz Quan: no teh bit is real. 
Moon Fargis: i dont see a pool 
Wol Euler shushes Moon. 
Fael Illyar doesn't see a pool either. 
Moon Fargis: *giggles* 
Wol Euler: let Fefonz finish, I think he is actually trying to agree :) 
Fefonz Quan: so we agree again about that bit gone 
Moon Fargis: *giggles* 
Fefonz Quan: and returned :0 
Wol Euler: yep 
Wol Euler: as temporary as any other reality. 
Wol Euler: slavery was reality a hunded years ago, now Obama is president. How unreal is that? 
Fefonz Quan: but that bit was chagned in real life, adn we all agreed about it 
Fefonz Quan: it is much more complicated moving to social concepts, i'm trying to keep it simple 
Wol Euler: hehehehe, true, I apologise. 
Moon Fargis: yep fefonz becasue our bases of trined knowledge of acting to our visual ans senses putting them into informations and logical meanings is the same 
Moon Fargis looks at his sentence and runs away 
Fael Illyar: to nitpick, it wasn't just a bit that changed, it also changed many other bits and then many times that on our computer and then in each of our minds. 
Wol Euler skritches Moon's ears. Getting late? 
Wol Euler: me too 
Moon Fargis: verry i really have to hurry in bed 
Fael Illyar: because we're connected through something. 
Moon Fargis: "like leafs on a tres" 
Moon Fargis: tree 
Wol Euler: mmhmm 
Isen Enzo: make like a tree and leave? 
Wol Euler: right! 
Fefonz Quan: and what is this connection? 
Fefonz Quan: is it "out of our creatin" 
Fefonz Quan: creation? 
Moon Fargis: ok ill better move 
Moon Fargis: Good night everyone! 
Wol Euler: bye moon, schalf gut. 
Wol Euler: *schlaf 
Fael Illyar: it's either something separate from us or then a part of all of us. 
Fefonz Quan: Gooc night Moon, 
Scathach Rhiadra: night moon 
Isen Enzo: nacht moon 
Isen Enzo: schlaffen gooden 
Fael Illyar: actually, more likely part of all of us. 
Fael Illyar: that's why we share it. 
Fefonz Quan: OK, i didn't like the other direction too 
Wol Euler: I feel that the point is that there is a difference between the thing that we talk about, and the talking that we do about it. 
Isen Enzo: I thought that Zen was difficult... 
Wol Euler: as soon as we label this thing that connects us, it starts to divide us. 
Isen Enzo: but this PaB makes my head spin... 
Fael Illyar smiles. 
Wol Euler: because we both mean someting differnet when we say "soul". 
Fefonz Quan: so we did a good job i guess :) 
Wol Euler chuckles and nods at Isen. 
Fael Illyar: Somehow, I don't bother trying to make coherent sense of everything I read here anymore :) 
Fefonz Quan: sure, that's why i'm not sure we want to say "soul" right now 
Wol Euler: well, the same applies to any other word we might use. 
Isen Enzo: ...tries to remain metaphysically neutral... 
Fael Illyar smiles at Isen. 
Fefonz Quan: I agree, Wol. that's also far away from my personal experience with Bab 
Fefonz Quan: PasB 
Fefonz Quan: , so maybe we've gone too far theoretically and lost touch with reality 
Fefonz Quan: i still feel bothered by it a a corner of my mind 
Fefonz Quan: and sorry if i was pushingmy point too much 
Fael Illyar: bothered by there not being an absolute reality? 
Isen Enzo: not a prob 
Fefonz Quan: that too:0 
Fefonz Quan: :) 
Wol Euler: no worries, on the contrary. 
Fefonz Quan: but bothered by the contradiction i fell with the no reality concept 
Fael Illyar: There is a certain shared part of us that we all share. Perhaps that's what you'd like to call absolute reality? 
Fefonz Quan: perhaps. but that is a hypothesis 
Fefonz Quan: not a direct experience (at least for me) 
Wol Euler: we ahve to start somewhere:) 
Fefonz Quan: i thought we started with ourselves and appearances 
Wol Euler: but I notice that those who say that reality is unreal and only the appearnace of sensation exists, still look both ways before crossing the street. 
Fael Illyar: The problem with calling anything absolute reality is being able to tell apart which parts are your own and which of the shared one. 
Fefonz Quan: good point Wol! 
Fefonz Quan: that's exactly what i feel about it 
Wol Euler: and that is in my opinion absolutely (ha!) valid. 
Fefonz Quan: :-) 
Wol Euler: the world exists, whatever philosophers say about it. 
Fael Illyar: There's the world and there's the mind. 
Isen Enzo: hard to get to the bottom of some stuff... 
Wol Euler: right. but there would be no less world without my mind. 
Isen Enzo: maybe don't need to.. 
Fael Illyar: quite so :) 
Fefonz Quan: so does it say taht the world is independent of your mind? 
Isen Enzo: cars and trucks might be un-real, but I'm gonna look both ways anyhow... 
Isen Enzo: gotta do the best you can with what you got at the time where you are... 
Isen Enzo: whether at the bottom of it or not.. 
Isen Enzo: cant wait 

Wol tried to reveal our secret inner consensus by moving the discussion away from either/or.

Wol Euler: the difficulty here is that both sides are right. 
Isen Enzo: gotta get across the street 
Fael Illyar: the reality/unreality of world is not the same as reality/unreality of the mind. 
Wol Euler: fefonz is right that the world does exist. 
Isen Enzo: looking both ways prudent in any case.. 
Fefonz Quan: fefonz is not as sure as you :) 
Wol Euler: (naming you as a way of seting the sides, don't mean it personally) 
Wol Euler: ok. wol is right that the world does exist. It is real and here and will continue to exist even after she dies. 
Fefonz Quan: sure:) 
Fael Illyar: the mind is perfectly capable of holding something as reality when in the world it's unreality. 
Wol Euler: Fael is also right, though, that the world Wol lives in is not identical with the one she perceives. 
Fefonz Quan: (the smile was for Wol line) 
Wol Euler: because wol's senses are imperfect and her interpretations flawed and biased 
Wol Euler: both are right. 
Wol Euler: it is NOT an either/or 
Isen Enzo: gotta do the best you can either or whatever 
Wol Euler: right! 
Fael Illyar: and the point here is that everything we see is in our minds. 
Fael Illyar: we do not see the world, we see our minds 
Fefonz Quan: i titally agree 
Fefonz Quan: totally 
Wol Euler: yes. I see "poplar", but there is no "poplar-ness" out there. The tree does not know that it is a poplar, and probably wouldn'T care much if I told it so. 
Fefonz Quan: but we try to "see" reality 
Fael Illyar: and because what we see is our mind, it certainly is our creation that we see. 
Wol Euler: right, also true. 
Wol Euler: we see our interpretations. 
Fefonz Quan: true 
Wol Euler: again, if that weren't true, we would need no lawyers 
Fefonz Quan: yay again :) 
Wol Euler: yeh, it would be a good idea. 
Fefonz Quan: (my sister is a lawer, though) 
Fael Illyar: this is the core of saying we create our own reality. 
Wol Euler: (she wouldn't stop being your sister, she'd just get an honest job;-) 
Fefonz Quan: well - they say 99% of the lawers make all the others lokk really bad :) 
Wol Euler: heheheheheheheh 
Fefonz Quan: i understand what both of you are saying 
Fefonz Quan: and i'm sure this is part of our (my) practice 
Wol Euler: http://www.iciclesoftware.com/LawJok...eLawJokes.html 
Fefonz Quan: i just feel that there is a lot of things need to sink in 
Fael Illyar: Yes, not quite instant process :) 
Wol Euler: yep 
Fefonz Quan: and the connection between our "psychological" reality and the outer world is still a puzzle for me 
Wol Euler: I think that is what Pema was talking about when he described the tension between the traditional practice which takes 40 years to get from A to B, and the 9 seconds which start at B. 
Fefonz Quan: i believe we are going towards more than a "psychological" experiment 
Wol Euler: agreed, I think :) 
Fefonz Quan: but i can;t be sure about it now. 
Wol Euler: well, no hurry. We have the rest of our lives to sort it out. 
Isen Enzo: better hurry.... 
Isen Enzo: never know.... 
Wol Euler: yes, you can see it that way too. 
Isen Enzo: might not get another channce... 
Wol Euler: how did the sage express it? "Isen Enzo: gotta do the best you can either or whatever " 
Isen Enzo: not sure.. 
Fael Illyar: Well, whatever happens, it happens :) 
Isen Enzo: sage backwards is e-gas!! 
Fael Illyar: but yes, it's good to make the best of what you have :) 
Wol Euler nods. 
Fefonz Quan: nods too 
Wol Euler: that sounds like a closing line to me. Shall we? 
Fael Illyar: whatever it is that you consider the best :) 
Fael Illyar: sure :) 
Wol Euler: of course! and that too is a moving target :) 
Wol Euler: today's best is not yesterday's. 
Fefonz Quan: cool. so we won't get bored :) 
Isen Enzo: bored is up to you. 
Isen Enzo: optional! 
Wol Euler: well, those of you in earlier timezones may continue, but I must head to bed. 
Fael Illyar: Yep, no time to be bored, unless you really want to :) 
Isen Enzo: I as well am away 
Fael Illyar: Yes, me too, bed :) 
Fefonz Quan: Good night Wol! 
Fefonz Quan: and Fael! 
Fael Illyar: Good night everyone :) 
Scathach Rhiadra: good night everyone:) 
Wol Euler: thank you everyone,that was a great discussion 
Isen Enzo: Thank you all 
Wol Euler: good night scathach 
Isen Enzo: for the conversation 
Fefonz Quan: thank you too 
Wol Euler: good night isen, fael, fefonz 
Isen Enzo: Good night everyone 
Isen Enzo: Blessings 
Fefonz Quan: Good nigh all!