2008.12.15 19:00 - The Pragmatic Predator

Threedee was the guardian this evening.  Adelene sent me, Pema, the chat log, I put it up and added a title.

Threedee Shepherd: 12/15/08 7 PM
Pila Mulligan: hi Adelene and Threedee
Adelene Dawner: hi Pila ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila
Pila Mulligan: I hope you are both well and happy
Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pema Pera: Hi Adelene, Threedee, Pila!
Threedee Shepherd: As much as can be when the temp outside here in Boulder Colorado is 0-defrees F
Pila Mulligan: wow
Pila Mulligan: cold
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pema
Pema Pera: wow indeed!
Threedee Shepherd: Last night it got to -20 F
Pema Pera: never a dull moment in mountain weather . . ..
Pema Pera: hi Solo!
Pila Mulligan: man, that is brutal
Solobill Laville: Hiya, all!
Threedee Shepherd: Actually, we are on the plain at the edge of the mountains
Pila Mulligan: hi Solobill
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Solo
Threedee Shepherd: I suspect we may have a few others who are elsewhere in SL at this moment
Pila Mulligan: welcome back
Pema Pera: (^_^)
Threedee Shepherd: Well, anyone have something they would like to bring up?
Solobill Laville: hmmm
Solobill Laville waits for Pila
Pila Mulligan: does conversation about the mundane, particulalry the effects of the economic crisis, tickle anyone's fancy?
Threedee Shepherd: Otherwise, I would like to explore "phenomenology" in terms of how we can further "make use of" the udeas of subject, object and the Space in between
Pila Mulligan: ahh, much more consistent Threedee, and less of a downer
Pema Pera: we could combine both :-)
Pila Mulligan: how Pema?
Threedee Shepherd: interesting thought
Pema Pera: the sense of helplessness of the subject in the face of the economic crisis
Pila Mulligan: true
Pema Pera: the economy seems like an objective truth, almost god given
Threedee Shepherd: of course, "subjects" are at it core
Pema Pera: and we seem helpless
Pila Mulligan: did you have something Solo, when you waited :)
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: -> Threedee
Solobill Laville: I'm good.... :)
Pila Mulligan: well, and interesting juxtaposition, but we can just focus on Threedee's idea if you like
Pila Mulligan: an*
Threedee Shepherd: it is interesting how simple rules of individual behavior in a large group of like individuals leads to emerging behaviors (like fish schooling) that seem mysterious and imposed from "above" or out there
Pila Mulligan: phenomenology -- wihtout economy :)
Threedee Shepherd: economics is like that
Pila Mulligan: ahh, well, ok
Pila Mulligan: :)
Threedee Shepherd: So, if I follow the idea I just started, I would ask about "group ohenomenology"
Threedee Shepherd: *phen...
Pila Mulligan: how can make use of the ideas of subject, object and the Space in between then?
Threedee Shepherd: I act in the subject/object space, so do you, and the nextr person and the next, and then our combined actions lead to a "hyper"-phenomena that feeds back onto all of us, without intent
Pila Mulligan: do you remember Fritz Perl's theory of gestalt?
Solobill Laville: yes
PaB Listener Master: Removing "Pema Pera" from list.
Threedee Shepherd: Which part? I studied it at length
Pila Mulligan: Pema crashed again
Pila Mulligan: when the energy expereincned by a group exceeds the apparent sum of its parts
Solobill Laville: Had a big impact on systems theory
Threedee Shepherd: yes, because the energy become another "thing" in itself, like the "hand of the market"
Pila Mulligan: I thought of that when you said group phenomenology
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Solobill Laville: Three, were thinking generally, or did have a specific example in mind?
Pila Mulligan: I learned of it not by study but by conversation with a neighbor who was a director at Esalen Instute in the 70's
Threedee Shepherd: generally, but then I wanted to understand "how" specificity arises and might be channeled
Solobill Laville: ah, a California guy, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pema Pera: hi Maxine!
Solobill Laville: ah, ok, <- Three
Pila Mulligan: hi Maxine
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Maxine
Maxine Walden: hi, everyone, sorry to be late
Solobill Laville: Hi, Maxine
Pila Mulligan: it is still now
Threedee Shepherd: np
Solobill Laville: ah, so there is no late, Pila, I like that!
Pema Pera: sorry to keep freezing up and dropping out (>_<) -- if someone can send me the chat log so far by IM or such, I can catch up with what I've missed
Threedee Shepherd: No one air molecule is the wind
Solobill Laville: Send one to Max too... :)
Pila Mulligan: well, let me comment on another aspect of group phenmoneology, and see if we can find a common ground for these ideas
Maxine Walden: please, would appreciate that
Pila Mulligan: in Hawai`i, as I have mentioned several times to some folks here, the traditional ceremonies are very inclusive of the grup attending
Pila Mulligan: and one measure of success of a ceremony is whether or ont it ends with a rain shower
Pema Pera: thanks, Three, for the note!
Maxine Walden: thanks, 3D
Pila Mulligan: now this rasies sketpicism usually, but I promise you I have seen to many not to categorize it as group phenomnology
Solobill Laville: Wow, it would be great to have it rain on the hour at the end of a session then... :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: yes, it owuld
Pila Mulligan: a kind of gestalt with nautre
Solobill Laville: Well, the crux of phenomology is the relationship, yes?
Threedee Shepherd: Being the sceptic, perhaps it is the incipient weather that causes more people to gather
Pila Mulligan: sorry Threedee, if you had seen it your would probably be more suprised than skeptical
Pila Mulligan: it is not the ncipient weather
Pila Mulligan: on a bright sunny day with no cluds there will sudeenly for a few moments be clouds and showers
Threedee Shepherd: I press: How do you know. My knees know about weather long before I do
Pila Mulligan: then sunny immediately afte a few mionutes
Pila Mulligan: :) see description, above
Pila Mulligan: I appreciate your skepticism, it is the most usual response
Pema Pera: Hi Jack!
Jack Trizomu: Hiya
Pila Mulligan: 'lo Jack
Adelene Dawner: Most peoples' senses are more sensitive than they have any conscious knowledge of. It doesn't seem umlikely to me at all that people could know-without-knowing when rain is on its way.
Threedee Shepherd: If you gather at 4:30 PM in Boulder Colorado in the summer, you are VERY likely to have the same experience
Pila Mulligan: so the scheduling is an untineded coincidece?
Solobill Laville: Or perhaps part of group consciousness
Threedee Shepherd: ??
Pila Mulligan: these are rationailzatins that I well understand but cannot reconcile with my actual expereince
Pema Pera: Jack, feel free to join us. Have you been here before?
Jack Trizomu: nop
Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- we record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
Jack Trizomu: nope i dont mind at all
Pema Pera: thank you, and welcome to Second Life -- I see you were "born" today :-)
Jack Trizomu: lol yep
Maxine Walden: happy birthday
Jack Trizomu: Thanks
Solobill Laville: Well dressed for a new-born ;)
Solobill Laville: and, yes, welcome
Pila Mulligan: I just wanted to toss this into thepot, whle the group phenomenology topic simers -- it need not become an ingredient if you wish
Jack Trizomu: ha i get use to thinks quick i guess
Threedee Shepherd: [19:23] Pila Mulligan: these are rationailzatins that I well understand but cannot reconcile with my actual expereince. Why Not?
Solobill Laville: Because they are not "rational"?
Jack Trizomu: so what are the numbers above my head?
Pila Mulligan: because the expereinces in many places and many times -- places where I am familair witht he weather patterns -- and the nature of the rain simply do ont lend thmeselves to normal perciptation as the answer
Threedee Shepherd: How many people in such a gathering?
Pema Pera: They are debugging numbers for our recording system of the chat logs
Pema Pera: -> Jack
Jack Trizomu: o ok
Pila Mulligan: usually a dozen up -- frequently several dozen
Jack Trizomu: ill be right back folks
Pema Pera: sure!
Threedee Shepherd: I am not arguing that you are "wrong". Rather, coincidence that is anecdotal does not usually convince me of anything.
Pila Mulligan: when the USS Hawaii, a nuclear submarine, was commissioned recently in Connecticut, a rain shower occurred as the cermeony ended -- Hawai`i;s givernor was there and mentioned to the crowd that this was acommon experience -- but out of context
Pila Mulligan: it is nt my anecdote :)
Pila Mulligan: only
Pila Mulligan: and my gues si sthat if it were being studied by technicians it wold noty happen
Pila Mulligan: so I cal it magic, for lack of a better term
Threedee Shepherd: If people becomoe sensitized to an idea, a meme, they are primed to recognize it when it happens, but not to discount all the times it does not happen
Maxine Walden: so many things/occurrences that we do not understand
Pila Mulligan: I think discounting the times i t does not happen is a significant part actually
Pila Mulligan: there is a disitnguishable feeling -- oh fun this wil be to defend
Jack Trizomu: back
Pema Pera: wb :)
Jack Trizomu: thanks
Threedee Shepherd: Are lack of understanding does not mean there is not a reasonable explanation, of course.
Pila Mulligan: of course
Pila Mulligan: or a magic explanaiotn :)
Threedee Shepherd: Our
Jack Trizomu: what type of magic?
Maxine Walden: perhaps magic lies in the realm of that which we do not currently understand
Pila Mulligan: natural magic, not unnatural :)
Threedee Shepherd: Why appeal to magic until it becomes necessary. Reality is "magical" enough?
Pila Mulligan: magic to me is the occureence of the unexpected
Jack Trizomu: david blaine or mind freak guy is unnatural i assume
Pila Mulligan: in this type of situation
Pila Mulligan: well, again, to risk skepticism, my sesne of wu wei is tuned to this type of phenomenon, it is affrimative of hamrny with autre
Pila Mulligan: harmony*
Pila Mulligan: nature*
Pila Mulligan: just like native people calling fish or animals to be eaten
Pila Mulligan: it seems unlikely, but ...
Threedee Shepherd: If we had the "slightest" sense of harmony with nature, we would not now be threatened by global warming.
Pila Mulligan: we who kemosabe :)
Threedee Shepherd: we the individualsubject-actors who give rise to the group ohenomenology
Pila Mulligan: ahh, of course
Pila Mulligan: we did miss some thoughts in rushing to weaken the ozone
Pila Mulligan: or whtever it was we did
Jack Trizomu: i think it is a bit wierd that people have been saying we are going into global warming yet we are getting record low tempatures.
Threedee Shepherd: So, to make a huge leap, perhaps a key activity is to propagate "useful memes" on purpose with intent aforethought?
Maxine Walden: we paid attention to things other than the earth, such as remaining self-centered and greed driven, re the ozone and other natural 'disasters'
Threedee Shepherd: It is global average temp that matters, not one local place, I think
Pema Pera: sorry, everybody -- they're coming to take me away . . . . this time my colleagues for lunch, not a computer crash :-)
Threedee Shepherd: bye Pema
Pila Mulligan: have fun Pema
Solobill Laville: bye, pema
Pema Pera: see you all soon
Jack Trizomu: later
Pema Pera: will do :)
Maxine Walden: see you, Pema
Jack Trizomu: hmm seems like it is hard for me to follow your conversation
Solobill Laville: So, if i may add a cultural component to this, a meme that is "usefelly created" suggests
Threedee Shepherd: Sorry, we have been doing this long enough that we use both shorthand and have multiple threads going at the same time
Solobill Laville: both cultural and hegemonic issues
Solobill Laville winces
Solobill Laville: Sorry, Jack!
Solobill Laville: It's kinda like reading a short Chekov play
Threedee Shepherd: true, but if others can get away with the "big lie" as a meme, why can't I try for the "big truth"?
Jack Trizomu: a big truth is easier to get away with than a b ig lie
Maxine Walden: remind me what a 'meme' is?
Threedee Shepherd: one sec and I'll get it "right"
Solobill Laville: Depends on the Administration, Jack...
Solobill Laville: It is from memetic theory, Max
Jack Trizomu: true
Maxine Walden: ah, thanks
Threedee Shepherd: Wikipedia: A meme (pronounced /miːm/) is unit or element of cultural ideas, symbols or practices that transmit from one mind to another through speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomenon. The term is derived from the Greek word mimema for mimic.[1] Memes are cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate and are subject to selective pressures.[2]

Richard Dawkins coined the word "meme" as a neologism in his book The Selfish Gene (1976) to describe how one might extend evolutionary principles to explain the spread of ideas and cultural phenomena. He gave as examples melodies, catch-phrases, and beliefs (notably religious belief, clothing/fashion, and the technology of building arches).[3]

Meme-theorists contend that memes evolve by natural selection (in a manner similar to that of Darwinian biological evolution) through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance influencing an individual entity's reproductive success.
Solobill Laville: an outbranch of Darwinism, but broader
Solobill Laville: If you haven't seen this, it is worth the view: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/s...and_temes.html
Maxine Walden: great definitions, 3D and Solo, thanks a lot
Jack Trizomu: hmm
Threedee Shepherd: Wikipedia is in the midst of a fund-raising drive ^.^ If everyone gave a few dollars....
Adelene Dawner did.
Pila Mulligan: crashed
Solobill Laville: Daggum, what are they gonna with $6M?
Solobill Laville: wb, *ila
Jack Trizomu: sorry guys this is to confusing for me to understand.. i think it is time for me to go
Pila Mulligan: bye Jack
Solobill Laville: Sorry, Jack, you could catch up quicker than you think!
Threedee Shepherd: Jack, when you have been around a while, come back
Solobill Laville: Have fun!
Maxine Walden: thanks for dropping by, Jack. try us again maybe...
Jack Trizomu: k well ill probably be around and will be back sometime later.
PaB Listener Master: Removing "Jack Trizomu" from list.
Threedee Shepherd: A newborn at PaB is like dropping a first grader into a quantum mechanics class
Pila Mulligan: :)
Solobill Laville: hehe
Maxine Walden: yes, nice metaphor 3D
Solobill Laville: and yet here we sit by the "welcome lawn"...
Maxine Walden: right, not sure what to say about that, nothing 'quippy' comes to mind
Solobill Laville: I'm still a bit unclear on the idea of "group phenomenology"...seems to be singular perspective-type thing
Threedee Shepherd: Well perhaps something will if you quip trying :>
Pila Mulligan: as a fact, however, it explains something I wondered -- why so many newbies arrive here
Maxine Walden: (groans )
Solobill Laville: WEll, the ones who walk here....are random....but the ones who TP here have searched
Threedee Shepherd: They look at the map and see a concentration of dots and are curious why so many people are there
Maxine Walden: and so come to check out the party...
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Pila Mulligan: and leave scratching their virtual head
Maxine Walden: right, Pila
Threedee Shepherd: Solo, I am suggesting that no fish "intends" to form a school of fish or to direct its actions, yet together, following simple individual rules, the school emerges, and turns oout to be beneficial defense against predators
Pila Mulligan: = group phenomeno :) ?
Pila Mulligan: n*
Pila Mulligan: non*
Pila Mulligan: whatever :)
Threedee Shepherd: In fact, the newbie conversation a moment ago may be an example. An obvious rule/meme for a newbie trying to find the action is to GO where the dots are concentrated. that is not why we concentrate here at PaB, but it does attract newbies
Pila Mulligan: now wasn't diversity in a group an essential element of the gestalt therory
Solobill Laville: OK, so if phenomenology is about the "thing that is the relationship" between subject and object
Solobill Laville: you are suggesting there is also a "group" meaning given to that interplay? I can accept that...but
Solobill Laville: I still wonder if you had a specific example in mind that would be helpful to explore
Solobill Laville: in terms of a group
Threedee Shepherd: No, that is what I hoped we might sneak up on ;>
Solobill Laville: and I thought you may present it... ;)
Threedee Shepherd: My ho-pe was that our discussion might be like brainstorming
Threedee Shepherd: Or that a meta-meme might "emerge"
Pila Mulligan: what is meme please?
Solobill Laville: ah, Pila missed that
Pila Mulligan: oui
Threedee Shepherd: Wikipedia: A meme (pronounced /miːm/) is unit or element of cultural ideas, symbols or practices that transmit from one mind to another through speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomenon. The term is derived from the Greek word mimema for mimic.[1] Memes are cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate and are subject to selective pressures.[2]

Richard Dawkins coined the word "meme" as a neologism in his book The Selfish Gene (1976) to describe how one might extend evolutionary principles to explain the spread of ideas and cultural phenomena. He gave as examples melodies, catch-phrases, and beliefs (notably religious belief, clothing/fashion, and the technology of building arches).[3]

Meme-theorists contend that memes evolve by natural selection (in a manner similar to that of Darwinian biological evolution) through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance influencing an individual entity's reproductive success.
Maxine Walden: I am sorry, guys, I have to go and feed my RL stomach. Thought I could last but my hunger is distracting me so much I cannot really concentrate. I will look forward to reading the blog
Maxine Walden: see you all
Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine, have a nice meal
Threedee Shepherd: Bye Maxine
PaB Listener Master: Removing "Maxine Walden" from list.
Solobill Laville: Night, max
Pila Mulligan: ... reading :)
Pila Mulligan: reminds me of John Trudell
Threedee Shepherd: Solo, my deeper intent is to try and see if there are "practical" consequences of the ideas inherent in Phenomenology
Threedee Shepherd: Who is he?
Pila Mulligan: an American Indian poet, he speaks a lot of the genetic memory of his peoploe
Threedee Shepherd: "culture"
Solobill Laville: THis is inerested too, Pila: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/s...and_temes.html
Pila Mulligan: "We being who we are today, however we landed in this reality, whoever we are today, we carry the genetic experience of our lineage from the very beginning. It’s encoded in the DNA, it’s like genetic memory. It’s something about the experience of the journey we have it in us. But somewhere within our genetic memory, somewhere hidden in there, we all come from a people; each of us comes from a people that knew they lived in a spiritual reality. And because we lived in a spiritual reality every one of our ancestral peoples understood we have a responsibility. We were responsible for the past, the future and for the present. We understood that all things had being. "
Solobill Laville: That is profound, and lost to a great extent
Threedee Shepherd: I suggest it is a longing for something that never existed.
Threedee Shepherd: And I would be bringing up last night's "topic" if I asked, "What is a spiritual reality?"
Solobill Laville: For some people there is none, because there is nothing that is not
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: does that incolude the tooth fairy and Santa?
Pila Mulligan: "We see your tech no logical society devour you before your very eyes we hear your anguished cries exalting greed through progress while you seek material advances the sound of flowers dying carry messages through the wind trying to tell you about balance and your safety"
Solobill Laville: It is like asking a panda what is food?
Solobill Laville: only one answer
Threedee Shepherd: Ancient Greeks, "founders" of the democratic state, had slaves ;>
Pila Mulligan: so did Jefferson :)
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Solobill Laville: And Churchill said, Democracy is the worst form of government
Solobill Laville: except for everything else
Threedee Shepherd: Tell me when exactly WAS the spiritual golden age, and where?
Pila Mulligan: well, spiritual reality is astate of mind perhaps, that exists among those whose perceptions allow them to beleive it
Threedee Shepherd: so was the "ether"
Solobill Laville: By sheer quantity, Three, this is
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Pila Mulligan: what would the Dalaia Lama be wihtout reincarnation?
Threedee Shepherd: a wise and compassionate person
Pila Mulligan: but lacking some of the tradition
Threedee Shepherd: not if the position was hereditary
Pila Mulligan: isn't it :)
Solobill Laville: he is more powerful as wise and compassion that as believing in reincarnation
Solobill Laville: *ate
Pila Mulligan: hi claire
Threedee Shepherd: I have no position on reincarnation (having not yet, to my memory, died) yet I still respect that the DL is a profound personage.
Solobill Laville: Heya, Claire
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Claire
Solobill Laville: I've seen him, and he is ;)
Claire Beltran: ^-^/
Pila Mulligan: I was just raising that traditional belief as an example of spiritual awareness among thos believing they have expereinced it
Pila Mulligan: or 'spiritual awareess' to preserve the skepticsm
Threedee Shepherd: and I have been crankily pointing out that mere believing sdoes not make it so
Pila Mulligan: indeed, nor doe sit deny it
Pila Mulligan: we may not believe the earth is flat, but we stil fram it much the same
Pila Mulligan: farm*
Solobill Laville: The "tool" is effort, and the "mechanism" is experience
Threedee Shepherd: standoff, and then I resort to pragmatism, as in, what does believing add to the explanation of X?
Solobill Laville shakes his head and points to his last comment
Claire Beltran: I think I must go...
Pila Mulligan: explanation resides mostly in sceince and technique
Solobill Laville: That is a permanent Mexican standoff
Pila Mulligan: bye Claire
Solobill Laville: Ah, me too soon as well Claire
Threedee Shepherd: explanation is predictive "good enough"
Adelene Dawner: 'night, Claire.
Threedee Shepherd: bye Claire
Solobill Laville: Is there explanation in technique?
Pila Mulligan: bye Solo, when the time comes :)
Pila Mulligan: oh, too soon
Solobill Laville: *soon*
Pila Mulligan: yes, peole explain techniques -- as theyunderstand them
Threedee Shepherd: technique inherently biases towards some explanation more than other
Pila Mulligan: but techniques can be imitated and learned as well
Solobill Laville: Technique is how, experience is what
Pila Mulligan: tradtional polynesia navigation was profooundly technical, but was learned by imitation
Threedee Shepherd: true, but if the only technique you know is how to wield a hammer, you have a hell of a time using screws
Solobill Laville: That is my point as well, Three
Threedee Shepherd: no argument
Solobill Laville: I guess my point is that techniques doesn't really explain, in my mind
Solobill Laville: But so, neither does experience :)
Threedee Shepherd: agreed, Pila re navigation, which used a "local" type of celestial navigation
Pila Mulligan: and lots of othe rticks :)
Pila Mulligan: other tircks*
Solobill Laville: hehe quick fingers
Pila Mulligan: receomend: An Ocean in Mind
Threedee Shepherd: well Solo, I agree, and then go off and try to be pragmatic anyway--hey is that predator or prey
Pila Mulligan: Naino Thompson, author
Pila Mulligan: Nainoa*
Threedee Shepherd: thx
Pila Mulligan: predator solo?
Pila Mulligan: or 3d sorry
Threedee Shepherd: The model is not the thing, of course.
Threedee Shepherd: It is useful to be able to predict whether that movement in the grass is my prey, or me its.
Adelene Dawner: The pragmatic predator doesn't chase things he can't catch... the pragmatic prey... I dunno, who knows why prey does what it does, but I assume they can be pragmatic somehow.
Pila Mulligan: ahh, thnaks
Pila Mulligan: it prays
Threedee Shepherd: hehehe
Threedee Shepherd: Pragmatic prey never stays long inone spot concentrating on eating
Pila Mulligan: and swims in schools
Threedee Shepherd: or herds
Solobill Laville: like a phenomological group!
Solobill Laville: There full circle :)
Pila Mulligan: there, we have it :)
Threedee Shepherd: exactly!
Pila Mulligan: the mem of survivial
Pila Mulligan: e*
Solobill Laville: And with that, good night! (cue Tonight Show music)
Threedee Shepherd: prey animals herd, predators have small packs, or stalk individually
Pila Mulligan: g'nite Solo
Threedee Shepherd: Thx Solo
Solobill Laville: Night, everyone
PaB Listener Master: Removing "Solobill Laville" from list.
Threedee Shepherd: Thanks, Pila, it has been both fun and interesting, g'night
Pila Mulligan: yes, see you next time
Pila Mulligan: bye Adelene
Adelene Dawner: 'night, Pila