2008.12.21 19:00 - Philosophy Needs a Soul

That evening I, Pema, was the guardian on call, but because of conflicts with RL timing of lunch, I came twenty minutes late. Just before I came in, Pila and Susi arrived. Pila and others stayed for a while longer after I left, and Pila kindly sent me the following complete chat log. The comment's are Pila's; the title I made up, echoing what Pila said toward the end.

Susi and Pila sit quietly for a while

Pila Mulligan: hi Susi
Susi Alcott: hi Pila
Pila Mulligan: how are you?
Susi Alcott: I'm fine
Susi Alcott: how r U ?
Pila Mulligan: I am fine also, thanks
Pila Mulligan: it looks like no one else is attending :)

Pema arrives and asks about the topic – there is none yet

Pila Mulligan: hello Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Susi, hi Pila!
Pema Pera: Sorry I'm late
Susi Alcott: hi Pema
Pila Mulligan: we seem to be it :) no one else has been here
Susi Alcott: np
Pema Pera: somehow this Sunday evening slot is a hard one for me . . . . lunch was interfering here
Pema Pera: what is the topic?
Pema Pera: or just freely chatting?
Pila Mulligan: '_blank_'
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: marvelous!
Pema Pera: true emptiness?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Susi Alcott: :)*

Pila has a topic: is there more to life than just the body?

Pila Mulligan: I have one that may be touchy – is there more to life than just the body?
Pila Mulligan: I am firmly convinced that there is, by the way :)
Susi Alcott: sry...
Pema Pera: well, the body appears in your consciousness
Pema Pera: and so does everything else
Susi Alcott: well
Pema Pera: so from a direct-experience point of view, that consciousness is already quite a bit more than what we designate as "the body", don't you think?
Pila Mulligan: yes, I do
Susi Alcott: to me it's been quite hard to notice my earthly body
Pila Mulligan: how so Susi?
Susi Alcott: meaning my earthly body
Susi Alcott: so this question would be quite difficult for me to reply
Susi Alcott: as I am more aware of the 'other bodies' if we can experess our existence that way
Pila Mulligan: many people I've met in SL seem to feel the brain is responsible for every aspect of consciousness, and so they discard any idea of what has traditionally been called a spirit or soul
Pila Mulligan: an ethereal aspect of consciousness
Susi Alcott: I've also heard much of that too
Susi Alcott: yet
Susi Alcott: to me there's is no departing of body and brain what comes to thinking
Pema Pera: but what they mean with "the brain" is a construction, their conceptual understanding of a bit of what they call "the world" another conceptual understanding amidst all that arises, all that appears freely every moment . . . I prefer to start with sheer appearance, the appreciation of that
Susi Alcott: spirit is the 'part' that do learn and is the eternall life in case one is the independent god-spirit

Proceeding to the idea of incarnations

Pila Mulligan: ahh, then let's approach it from the duration of an individual – does an individual's awareness continune after the body has been dropped?
Susi Alcott: soul is the 'fog'; experiencies of each incarnation
Pila Mulligan: well, Susi I suppose successive incarnations is also the question -- in one aspect
Susi Alcott: and the earthly body is the Temple to these both
Susi Alcott: that is 'my world'
Susi Alcott: many bodies; each one on each dimension that one do exist
Pema Pera: I can try to answer that on various levels, Pila -- like pointing at a painting, and asking what is that; I can talk about the paint used or the objects that are depicted or about the decoration value of the paiting and so on . . . .
Pema Pera: so yes, like Susi said, many levels to focus on
Pema Pera: many ways to answer, depending on what the asker prefers :)
Pema Pera: Susi and I just had an email exchange about that, briefly
Susi Alcott: yes
Pema Pera: and all answers are "correct" within their own context
Pema Pera: Does consciousness live on after death?
Susi Alcott: sure
Pema Pera: It's a bit like asking "did someone get killed" in a movie
Pema Pera: yes and now
Pema Pera: yes within the story
Pema Pera: now, not really, it is just a show of light
Susi Alcott: being does not change for loosing the earthly human body
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: indeed
Pila Mulligan: we are all three in agreement then
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: fortunately we paint with different colors though
Pema Pera: keeping things interesting :-)
Susi Alcott: yet; it's only if one is the 'god-soul' as I call the eternall spirit to be
Susi Alcott: not meaning such beings, that r the drop of the bigger spirit
Pema Pera: :)
Susi Alcott: and do return to the light from which one has been almost departed off
Susi Alcott: but dont know it that's suitable to speak about
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: I think it is if your are comfortable with it
Pema Pera: I think we can do so in a respectful way, Susi
Pema Pera: and stop when words are misunderstood too much
Pila Mulligan: I respect the idea and am not uneasy with it
Pema Pera: how do you see us to be drops of the bigger spirit, Susi, if you don't mind me asking?
Susi Alcott: the answer to Ur question is it's own kind, because U use the word 'us'
Susi Alcott: we are god-spirits
Susi Alcott: we never return back to any bigger light
Susi Alcott: our life is eternal
Susi Alcott: but now I'm speaking about us here
Pema Pera: and if I don't use the word us?
Susi Alcott: then you'd need to point out which being you mean
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: My Mother the Cockroach :)
Susi Alcott: :)
Susi Alcott: should see her at first :)
Pila Mulligan: Pema, this was a conversation Susi and I previously had -- I expressed the opinion that my mother was probably a cockroach by now
Susi Alcott: spirit can be my called god-spirit even if one is not a human kind being
Pema Pera: :)
Pila Mulligan: true, Susi, god needs cockroaches for cockroach-ness
Susi Alcott: but she may have been your mom only in her this incarnation
Pila Mulligan: I hope so :)
Pema Pera: I think that my sense of "I" is like a dress that is being worn
Pema Pera: and that includes body, mind, thoughts, feelings, memories, everything
Pema Pera: something I have not something I am
Susi Alcott: 'I' has been difficult 'thing' to me too whole my this incarnation
Pema Pera: but that last "I" is then different from the I that is normally considered me
Susi Alcott: the 'part' of the list you name things; 'memories'
Pila Mulligan: Pema, are you comfortable with the idea of your dress-adorned being having had previous incarnations
Susi Alcott: those can be inherited; not own in the true meaning
Pema Pera: yes, Susi
Susi Alcott: but like a book you have read but not experienced
Pema Pera: I see, that's an interesting possibility
Pema Pera: Pila, I am comfortable with it in one context, but not in another
Pema Pera: it is like asking "who got killed or who was born" in a movie
Susi Alcott: I have met only one such person who did know that her memory may not be her own
Pema Pera: I can say yes and no and then I mean very different things
Susi Alcott: and she was right
Pila Mulligan: these two strands of discussion seem related
Pema Pera: yes
Susi Alcott: yes
Pila Mulligan: those book-like memories may be related to previous life experience, in my opinion
Susi Alcott: imo not
Pila Mulligan: previous incarnation, or whatever works as the term
Pila Mulligan: how do you believe they are obtained Susi?
Susi Alcott: when the memorising is inherited, it's inherited from the certain light; the bigger spirit
Susi Alcott: so; one has grown up to be the god-soul in the last 'drop' incarnations
Susi Alcott: incarnation
Susi Alcott: so
Susi Alcott: the memorizing is given by the light; the bigger spirit
Pila Mulligan: that seems a sensible opinion
Susi Alcott: ty

Tarmel arrives, Susi addresses healing as a non-method

Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
Susi Alcott: hi Tarmel
Pema Pera: Hi there, Tarmel!
Tarmel Udimo: hi folks
Susi Alcott: to Pema's question in e-mail;
Pema Pera: I think there are many ways in which we can see ourselves, our "I"
Pema Pera: yes, Susi?
Susi Alcott: I prefere say how I do NOT heal
Susi Alcott: that is that I do not use any method
Susi Alcott: could put that into the words for now
Susi Alcott: but prefere to continue the other topic than me
Pema Pera: oh, it is related, very much so
Pema Pera: the way I hope we can continue to run PaB is also without a method
Pema Pera: completely naturally and spontaneously
Susi Alcott: so that is free
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: we can use words like wu-wei, not-doing
Susi Alcott: freedom is the most presious thing
Pema Pera: but all these words start with "not" -- easier to say what we are not doing :-)
Pema Pera: yes, Susi
Pema Pera: and everybody is already totally free . . . .
Pema Pera: . . . but most of us don't know it, or forget it . . . .
Pila Mulligan: allowing the higher light to fall into our worldly environment may be the most we can hope for
Pema Pera: oh, I think we can hope for more, in fact see more . . . :)
Pema Pera: in the sense of enjoying total freedom
Susi Alcott: the total freedom to human being needs much independence
Pema Pera: like watching a movie: you are not free to change the scenes, that might cost a million dollars and a few months of time – but you are free to see that it is all a play of light - instantly, for free
Pema Pera: yes, Susi
Pema Pera: and independence comes from seeing
Pema Pera: first seeing
Pema Pera: then: aha, this means I'm free and I'm independent -- how simple!
Pema Pera: a moviemaker is like a magician, hard work -- a movie appreciator, seeing that it's all only light, that's the much easier job

Pila returns to reincarnation, with personal memory

Pila Mulligan: without trying to arouse skepticism or scorn, on a previously mentioned idead, I have some very detailed memories of my last incarnation -- dying in World War II
Pila Mulligan: idea ** was that Freudian?
Pema Pera: hard to know how to answer such a question . . . what do you think would be the right approach to even begin to answer?
Tarmel Udimo: how did you access those memories?
Pila Mulligan: it is not necessary to answer – it is a declaration of personal experience :)
Pema Pera: ah, sorry – I misread your joke about typo – complex :)
Susi Alcott: btw Pila; the spirit who was your mom in your this incarnation, is such my called god-spirit
Pila Mulligan: they became available to me spontaneously – waking and in dreams, Tarmel
Pila Mulligan: the first comment I typed 'idead' for idea = interesting typo :)
Pema Pera: yes, on second reading I got it – typos are fun here in SL!
Susi Alcott: lol
Tarmel Udimo: smiles
Susi Alcott: often
Pila Mulligan: Susi, I do not understand :)
Susi Alcott: as I did seek at first that 'bug' :)
Susi Alcott: you see; in 'my' world, one can be long time my called nature spirit
Susi Alcott: and have many such life forms that r not human kind being
Pila Mulligan: in a prior private conversation I related to Susi that my mother was an alcoholic, and – in the most polite terms - an asshole – so that she seemed likely to be a cockroach by now
Tarmel Udimo: thanks for the info
Susi Alcott: yet this spirit can grow up to be strong enough to be born as the human kind being
Pila Mulligan: and then revert back to the bug, perhaps
Susi Alcott: if one do choose so

Pema departs

Pema Pera: I'll have to get going, much as I'd love to continue the conversation . . . .
Susi Alcott: sure
Tarmel Udimo: okay see you
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema, have a nice afternoon
Pema Pera: bye everybody!
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Pema Pera: If somebody can email me the rest of the conversation, I'd appreciate it!
Pila Mulligan: ok
Pema Pera: be well, all _/!\_
Pila Mulligan: Inshallah
Tarmel Udimo: pila can you describe your death experience some more?
Pila Mulligan: well, I was a pilot flying a cargo plane in the pacific, and the plane crashed
Pila Mulligan: it is a very vivid memory
Tarmel Udimo: and how do you know it is your memory?
Pila Mulligan: I cannot really be certain, but it is much too familiar in the personal sense to disregard :)
Susi Alcott: because Pila do remember what he thought
Pila Mulligan: each memory is a subjective perception
Tarmel Udimo: true it was meant more as question of knowing rather than questioning that the memory was actually yours
Susi Alcott: when the memorizing is not own, one cannot remember the private thoughts of the being who lived that incarnation
Pila Mulligan: yes, I understand Tarmel – I have been very skeptical about it myself, not accepting impressions until they have imposed themselves consistently and repreatedly in different settings
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Tarmel Udimo: and do you go through the death experience and come out the other side?
Pila Mulligan: not really, just the death – but what Susi is referring to is the fact that I plainly recall my dying thought
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Tarmel Udimo: and what was that?
Pila Mulligan: it was: "I could do better" :)
Pila Mulligan: better than crashing like that
Tarmel Udimo: very interesting
Pila Mulligan: it's like a basketball player missing the last second shot
Tarmel Udimo: do you know anything else about what was happening or was it an isolated memory
Pila Mulligan: how do you mean?
Pila Mulligan: happening during the crash?
Tarmel Udimo: your history before the crash
Pila Mulligan: yes, some - particularly that I flew out of Hawai`i -- there were very strong recognitions that occurred when I got here in 1985
Pila Mulligan: but I had already realized that the crash was in the pacific
Tarmel Udimo: hummmm
Pila Mulligan: before then – so this will invite shaky ground about self-fulfilling imagery
Pila Mulligan: but again, all I am describing is the experience of those impressions
Susi Alcott: purpose is the main thing how one do choose to remember
Pila Mulligan: and my conclusions as to them :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes and my questions are more one of fascination rather than skeptism....
Pila Mulligan: :)
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Susi Alcott: we feel that Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: good just making sure
Pila Mulligan: Tarmel, in this lifetime I fulfilled a childhood dream of training to be a naval aviator
Tarmel Udimo: wow
Pila Mulligan: from my earliest childhood I wanted to fly in the Navy
Pila Mulligan: when I got to flight school in this lifetime at Pensacola, Florida, there were the same sensations of deja vu
Pila Mulligan: I associate that dying thought with the childhood wish
Tarmel Udimo: yes this makes 'sense'
Pila Mulligan: it does to me :)
Tarmel Udimo: and did you 'do better' in this lifetime?
Pila Mulligan: much :)
Pila Mulligan: I lived
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
Susi Alcott: smiles
Pila Mulligan: but actually I quit flying because of personal issues with the Vietnam war, so it was not really the same game
Tarmel Udimo: did you fly in the war before quitting
Pila Mulligan: no, I quit during flight school – I started in 1965 while in collecge, doing OCS and preflight, and by the time I was back for final training in 1968 my mind had changed 180 degrees
Tarmel Udimo: hummm
Susi Alcott: RL call; brb
Pila Mulligan: but that led by odd coincidences to my meeting contemporaries from flight shcool at Pearl Harbor when I got here in 1985, so I was visiting the naval station from time to time and that was when the very strong deja vu experiences occurred
Pila Mulligan: here in Hawai`i
Pila Mulligan: the sum of it all is that I accept the general idea of reincarnation :)

Tarmel addresses the topic of being a Guardian

Tarmel Udimo: have you thought about becoming a Guardian on one of the sessions Pila?
Pila Mulligan: I need to learn the ropes
Susi Alcott: back
Susi Alcott: rolling the lines
Pila Mulligan: I told Pema I would take a fill-in role at first
Tarmel Udimo: hi susi
Pila Mulligan: substitute Guardian so to speak
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Pila Mulligan: wb
Tarmel Udimo: except i think you would make a fine gaurdian
Pila Mulligan: how has your experience of it been?
Tarmel Udimo: okay fine - only done one session and its easy
Pila Mulligan: did you have any newcomers?
Tarmel Udimo: lots of people would be happy to help with logging
Susi Alcott: done
Tarmel Udimo: no, but I have learnt how to say click on information circle and they can get download of info
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: what is the information circle?
Susi Alcott: lol
Tarmel Udimo: look behind me and see that blue circle spinning
Tarmel Udimo: might need to come over here
Pila Mulligan: ah, live and learn :)
Pila Mulligan: I am really uninformed about so much in SL
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Susi Alcott: so now also I learned it
Susi Alcott: :)*
Tarmel Udimo: also just gave you a PAB note card, you click on it in your inventory and the drag it over to the person's avatar
Susi Alcott: so it's good day today
Pila Mulligan: cool
Tarmel Udimo: why not try giving me one
Pila Mulligan: :)
Susi Alcott: :)

Tarmel addresses the topic of reincarnation

Pila Mulligan: do you have any opinions about the general theory of reincarnation Tarmel?
Tarmel Udimo: thanks boys.... I declined because I have about 5 of them sitting there
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: self-replicating too :)
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Tarmel Udimo: well I used to be really into it and wanting to know who i was and all of that
Tarmel Udimo: but in a way those questions have loosened their grip on me
Tarmel Udimo: and now i am keener on being awake and in the present regardless of past
Susi Alcott: to remember or not; different kind of problems
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Pila Mulligan: :)
Susi Alcott: some ppl have given me (lately) new reasons to remember
Tarmel Udimo: and yet of course I still imgaine meeting up with family and freinds and lovers in a future so I must still be hoping
Tarmel Udimo: can you say more susi
Pila Mulligan: well, aside from the interesting possible connection between then and now in terms of flying, my memory really has not proven especially valuable
Susi Alcott: one person confermed my thinking that one can know oneself completely only knowing one's roots
Susi Alcott: and one person recalled such life through which he did 'remember' about love
Susi Alcott: great genuine love which he had with his wife in that incarnation
Tarmel Udimo: hummm do you come across memory releases in your healing work
Susi Alcott: no
Tarmel Udimo: and in remembering that love it made a difference?
Susi Alcott: but maybe such releases of the persons former lifes who needs the help
Pila Mulligan: Susi, I agree that it is heplful to see one's roots, but I wonder really how much value the memories have for the present?
Susi Alcott: cuz the reason may be also 'there'
Susi Alcott: it also depends of so many things
Tarmel Udimo: well I could ask you that Q pila?
Susi Alcott: the base is that the memorizing is meant for help for today
Tarmel Udimo: has your past life memory impacted on this life?
Tarmel Udimo: yes that makes sense
Pila Mulligan: emotionally it has, but in practical terms, this life seems to be consumed with this life :)
Tarmel Udimo: how so emotionally
Pila Mulligan: those feelings of I can do better and the driving wish to fly seemed to connect in such a way as to be satisfying, emotionally
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Pila Mulligan: but then what? -- not that much :)
Susi Alcott: isn't that much ?
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pila Mulligan: yes, in a sense Susi, it is
Susi Alcott: ty
Susi Alcott: and...well...how about this idea
Pila Mulligan: I guess the point is that this life is also complete in itself
Susi Alcott: because you know that you've lived before, you can know also that you shall live even U'll die from this incarnation ?
Pila Mulligan: yes, that is an important idea to me also
Tarmel Udimo: good point susi
Susi Alcott: ty
Pila Mulligan: it makes a point of view solution to alot of philosophical thoughts
Susi Alcott: in 'my' world it can give also thought of peace
Pila Mulligan: my point of view is that philosophy needs a soul or some such idea to be complete
Susi Alcott: not to have such hurry to do all things in this life :)

A newbie named Leon arrives, Tarmel departs, Pila plays Guardian

Pila Mulligan: hi Leon
Susi Alcott: hi Leon
Leon Scarbridge: greetings
Pila Mulligan: you seem to have just started Second Life
Leon Scarbridge: yes im lost
Susi Alcott: r you sure ?
Pila Mulligan: well, now you have found this place :)
Leon Scarbridge: mind if i have a seat?
Susi Alcott: pls
Pila Mulligan: make yourself at home
Susi Alcott: I dont think that you r lost
Leon Scarbridge: ty for your generosity
Tarmel Udimo: hi leon
Leon Scarbridge: i just fly around not nowing where to go im trying to find a way to make money
Leon Scarbridge: greetings tarmel
Susi Alcott: ah
Susi Alcott: in case you mean real money; that's almost more difficult than in RL
Pila Mulligan: there, a gift of $L20 :)
Susi Alcott: but in case U only wanna have some nice things in SL
Susi Alcott: there r many options
Leon Scarbridge: how do you make money on here
Susi Alcott: you can use also 'search' for that
Leon Scarbridge: tu generously
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: no problem
Tarmel Udimo: well I must go..... Rl calls
Tarmel Udimo: is wveryone aorund over christmas
Pila Mulligan: bye Tarmel, nice to sit with you :)
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Leon Scarbridge: ty both
Pila Mulligan: yes, I will be here this week :)
Tarmel Udimo: okay lets meet up for drinks some time I am Guardian on 7:00pm Tuesday and wednesday 1;00am
Pila Mulligan: ok, the 7 pm one is easier for me
Leon Scarbridge: is there like any jobs on sl i can do to make money?
Pila Mulligan: 5 pm here then
Tarmel Udimo: okay may see you and susi both here might have to be 6:00pm
Susi Alcott: U find many options using the 'Search' and 'jobs' or 'work'
Pila Mulligan: see you then
Pila Mulligan: Leon, we seem to have forgotten to tell you that these chats are logged to a web blog
Pila Mulligan: do you mind if your comments are published on the blog?
Leon Scarbridge: its ok
Leon Scarbridge: nope not at all
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Leon Scarbridge: np anytime
Pila Mulligan: did you see then notecard?
Pila Mulligan: it tells about this place
Leon Scarbridge: ohh
Pila Mulligan: now Susi can tell you how to find Lindnens -- the money currency in SecondLife :)
Leon Scarbridge: k ty
Susi Alcott: well; the most common way to make money is to camp
Susi Alcott: there's many shopping centers with such camping places
Susi Alcott: but there r many kind of jobs
Susi Alcott: but that is always like 'play' money
Leon Scarbridge: i searched and got kelly work zone
Susi Alcott: so good luck with that
Leon Scarbridge: ty
Leon Scarbridge: quick question?
Susi Alcott: I have seen many dreams to crash
Leon Scarbridge: your hair is not showing why is that?
Pila Mulligan: Susi is skeptical about the kelly work zone :)
Susi Alcott: but some good 'stories' too; but they are from the people with creativity and hard work still
Susi Alcott: no
Susi Alcott: I'm skeptical of all the 'jobs' in SL
Pila Mulligan: yes, me too
Susi Alcott: have seen too much

Leon disappears, Pila and Susi depart

[Leon disappeared]
Pila Mulligan: well, bye Leon :)
Susi Alcott: but for example one person is very pleases as the bar tender on the beach
Susi Alcott: he dont anymore even think to have own land like he thought
Pila Mulligan: just likes his bartending job?
Susi Alcott: because he is so pleased to his life as it is as the bar tender
Pila Mulligan: :)
Susi Alcott: it's just the same in SL than in RL
Susi Alcott: much is based on one’s dreams
Pila Mulligan: shall we wrap up this discussion Susi?
Susi Alcott: o.k. with me
Pila Mulligan: I'll send the log to Pema
Pila Mulligan: nice chatting with you -- thanks for your ideas
Susi Alcott: – my ideas ?
Pila Mulligan: particularly your insight into the value of sensing prior incarnations
Susi Alcott: ah
Susi Alcott: ty
Pila Mulligan: that the present worldly existence is not all there is
Pila Mulligan: ..but then again, it is of course :)
Susi Alcott: :)
Pila Mulligan: see you next time
Susi Alcott: _/!\_