2008.12.17 19:00 - demanding compassion!

stevenaia Michinaga was the Guardian on Call for this session

 For the first few minutes I thought alone, jotting down topics of possibly discuss with myself or others who may eventually arrive.

stevenaia Michinaga: possible subjects.. gratitude, compassion vs empathy, patience

  

  

Adelene Dawner: purr?

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Ade

stevenaia Michinaga: yes Purr indeed

stevenaia Michinaga: now I know why this is so comfy for Corvi... smile

Adelene Dawner: hehe

stevenaia Michinaga: how are you tonight, Ade?

Adelene Dawner: Jittery, still.

stevenaia Michinaga: were you ill? my wife had the flu

Adelene Dawner: no - life stuff. The next few weeks just don't look like they're going to be pleasant, no matter how I slice it.

Adelene Dawner: But then I get to move to North Carolina, so ^.^

stevenaia Michinaga: I was out for half the discussion also night getting emergency Jello

stevenaia Michinaga: change is inevitibly good

Adelene Dawner: inevitably?

stevenaia Michinaga: in the end, change is good

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Susi

Susi Alcott: hi steve,

Susi Alcott: hi Adelene

Adelene Dawner: :)

Magdalena Colclough: hello

Susi Alcott: hi Magdalena

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Maggie

stevenaia Michinaga: at least it will be warmer in N.C

Adelene Dawner nods.

stevenaia Michinaga: it should be a time of excitement and transformation

Adelene Dawner: mm.

stevenaia Michinaga: it;s not that often that a new start is before you, you should make the most of it

Adelene Dawner: I still have to get through the next few weeks first.

Susi Alcott: and at first this moment

Susi Alcott: how r U now ?

Susi Alcott: Ur fur seems nice

Adelene Dawner: :)

Susi Alcott: and I think ur in very good position too :)

stevenaia Michinaga: I had to opprtunity to listen to another soul go through divorce and relocation, and she brought her happyness with her and still wears it well

Magdalena Colclough: I just saw an interesting video about happiness

stevenaia Michinaga: you tube?

Magdalena Colclough: no

Magdalena Colclough: from the TED site

stevenaia Michinaga: TED?

Magdalena Colclough: I can't remember what it stands for

Magdalena Colclough: but they do these amazing weekly talks with experts from all sorts of disciplines

Pillow Pile: Could not find object 'Rezzed'.

Magdalena Colclough: this one was from 2004, though

Adelene Dawner: this? http://sltotems.com/tslvd.aspx 

Magdalena Colclough: yes

  

Crusty Goldshark and Kirkra Caerndow arrive

stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Crusty

Crusty Goldshark: hi guys

Adelene Dawner: I haven't watched it yet, but I know it's a TED video - a friend just gave me the link.

Magdalena Colclough: hi Crusty

Susi Alcott: hi Crusty

stevenaia Michinaga: where is that vid screen we requested when we need it

Adelene Dawner: hehe

Susi Alcott: well Crusty, you said something such that interested me truely much

Crusty Goldshark: yes?

Susi Alcott: as you told that Buddha was mad

Crusty Goldshark: possibly

Susi Alcott: ah sure taken to be by somebody

Susi Alcott: yes

Susi Alcott: well; that has not changed even in Buddha's nowdays incarnation

Susi Alcott: just couldn't help myself to tell you

Crusty Goldshark: yes

Crusty Goldshark: you mean in 'crazy wisdom' incanations?

Susi Alcott: no

Susi Alcott: I mean incarnation in flesh and blood

Susi Alcott: as a human being

Crusty Goldshark: how so?Example

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Kirkra

Susi Alcott: hi Kirkra

Crusty Goldshark: hi kirka

Kirkra Caerndow: Hello thee everyone

Adelene Dawner: Hi Kirkra

Kirkra Caerndow: And hello once more!

stevenaia Michinaga: before anyone arrived I was jotting down some ideas of what to talk about tonight, considering I may have had this conversation with myself

stevenaia Michinaga: possible subjects.. gratitude, compassion vs empathy, patience

  

  

Adelene Dawner: I kind of have a subject.

stevenaia Michinaga: happy to entertain any other ideas ,

Adelene Dawner: It is in that vein.

Crusty Goldshark: yes Adelene?

Susi Alcott: so sry

Susi Alcott: I'm called again

Crusty Goldshark: bye

stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for comming

Susi Alcott: _/!\_

Magdalena Colclough: bye Susi

Susi Alcott: wihing all the best

Adelene Dawner: Y'all know, I think, that I'm working on moving out and that things are rough between me and BF. (Also, while I have the opportunity: I am specifically not looking for advice about that, here.)

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

Adelene Dawner: One of the things that is happening is that he is *demanding* behavior from me that would, if freely given, be considered compassionate...

Adelene Dawner: That seems extremely... agressive... of him. It's really pushing my buttons, and I'm not quite sure why.

Crusty Goldshark: does not seem comapssionate to deamand compassion - wot am I missing?

Crusty Goldshark: That is like insisting no one insist . . .

stevenaia Michinaga: pushing buttons is always interesting subject... yes crusty

Adelene Dawner: I'm not saying that he's being compassionate, Crusty. I'm saying that he's trying to demand compassionate behavior from me.

stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t think compassion works that way

Adelene Dawner nods.

Crusty Goldshark: Really? How can someone demand what they are unable to provide - compassion . . .

stevenaia Michinaga: like demanding love does not make love happen

Crusty Goldshark: exactly Stevenaia

Adelene Dawner: More than that - the fact that he's demanding it makes it pointless for me to do it even if I normally would, in my mind - it makes it impossible for me to *be* compassionate.

Adelene Dawner: (In the ways he's asking, I mean.0

Crusty Goldshark: Perhaps soeone is trying to exhibit their preferred behaviour through someone else - sis this compassionate or controlling?

Crusty Goldshark: is

stevenaia Michinaga: how you react to this is another side... buttons being pushed...

stevenaia Michinaga: he makes a conversation that has nothing to do with you... yours

Adelene Dawner is not quite understanding you, Crusty...

Adelene Dawner: Steve... that sounds right, but I could use more detail.

stevenaia Michinaga: Crusty, are you suggesting you can;t get compassion from a (metaphorical) stone

Crusty Goldshark: Well it seems to me you are probably both compassionate and neither wants to be controlled or told how or in what degree to behave a certain way

Adelene Dawner: Partly true, Crusty.

Crusty Goldshark: which part is true?

stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like my passive agressive mother

stevenaia Michinaga: (oops, did I say that?)

Crusty Goldshark: no

Crusty Goldshark: . . .. was your mother speaking . . .

Magdalena Colclough: if you ask for a gift, it's not really a gift anymore, is it?

Adelene Dawner: For me, I tend to be compassionate (not always, but tend toward it), and definitely do not react ewell to being controlled or told what to do. He has in the past tended to be compassionate... not so sure, now... but sees no problem in demanding things of others in general, and says that he does not mind having things demanded of him, though that's a bit less than consistent.

Adelene Dawner nodsat Mag.

Magdalena Colclough: and you'd never know whether it came from the person's heart or simply from acquiescence

Adelene Dawner: Exactly.

Crusty Goldshark: What words does he use to say 'let us be more compassionate'?

Magdalena Colclough: I think that's a really hard part of relationships--do you ask for what you need or simply hope for it to come your way

Adelene Dawner: He doesn't say 'us' and he doesn't say 'compassionate'. He just throws hurt at me, and then sits there expecting me to pat him and make it better... and won't take no for an answer.

Crusty Goldshark: and wouldn't you agree we can all be more compassionate?

Adelene Dawner sighs.

Magdalena Colclough: I think you have to learn to be compassionate without losing yourself in it

Magdalena Colclough: it can be so dangerous--you can be sucked totally dry

stevenaia Michinaga: Sounds like...."If you don't show compassion now , I'll shoot this dog?" a rather cynical approach

Adelene Dawner: Can, yes. But a major part of the reason I'm leaving at all, was that he started pressuring me into it... that's not ok.

Crusty Goldshark: You have talked about one thing but really are talking about a lack of communication

Crusty Goldshark: He does not want to hurt you and you do not want to be hurt so it seems the communication is askew

Adelene Dawner: In a sense, Crusty. I've told him in no uncertain terms that the pushing is a problem. He doesn't want to hear it - venting his emotions is obviously more important.

Adelene Dawner: I'm not so sure about the 'he doesn't want to hurt me' part. I mean, all else being equal, yeah, he wouldn't. But it's not very high on the priority list, obviously.

stevenaia Michinaga: the key is to not let it "get to you", this offers an oppurtunity to be calm and understanding without feeling diminished by his "demands"

stevenaia Michinaga: think and reflect befor you react and choose then

Adelene Dawner: I knew that, but your pointing it out brought up an interesting iteration...

Adelene Dawner: If he sees that I am calm, he reacts by becoming more agressive.

Adelene Dawner: Can I, or more how can I, be calm without showing it?

stevenaia Michinaga: a good time to sit and watch until you are ready to communicate

Adelene Dawner: That tends not to work, unless I have lirterally hours to wait while he wears himself out ranting.

Magdalena Colclough: hi Corvuscorva

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Corvi, nice of you to join us

Crusty Goldshark: hi corvuscorva

stevenaia Michinaga: well it certainl;y won;t work for him, but we are talking about what you choose to do

stevenaia Michinaga: if he will not change, you msut choose your best course for you

Adelene Dawner doesn't see putting her life on pause at his whim while he rants and raves for hours as a particularly viable option.

stevenaia Michinaga: hard to cummunicate with anyone in that state

Crusty Goldshark: I can only say if I medidate for longer I am calmer and more able to deal with ranting aggression which seems to arise less anyway . . .

Adelene Dawner: Depends how you define 'deal with' - if you mean, not get dragged into a sympathetic reaction, I've got that under control.

Crusty Goldshark: There are things we can do about others behaviour if we wish - such as reframing in NLP but that is not always feasible unless we learn the techniques

stevenaia Michinaga: NLP?

Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming ?

stevenaia Michinaga: thx

stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm.... light reading

Crusty Goldshark: It is also possible to rant and be agressive and still be at peace inside

Magdalena Colclough: have you read "Using your brain for a change"?

Adelene Dawner looks that up

Magdalena Colclough: it's about NLP

Crusty Goldshark: Outer behaviour is something we manifest but inner response is something we cultivate

Adelene Dawner: I get that, Crusty.

Magdalena Colclough: I'm sorry. I have to go. Thank you for the discussion Stevenaia

stevenaia Michinaga: night Maggie

Crusty Goldshark: Sometimes we can treat very difficult times as our most important times of awareness

Adelene Dawner: And I'm actually pretty good at the inner peace thing... it's the part about picking a useful outer behavior pattern that's hard.

stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for joining us

PaB Listener Master: Removing "Magdalena Colclough" from list.

Crusty Goldshark: Can you behave outwardly emotional and matching of anothers behaviour - nirroring whilst maintaining equanimity?

Adelene Dawner: Not easily.

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Angel

angelbabelily Coba: hi

Crusty Goldshark: Sometimes it is possible to match some behaviour - such as body tension and the n pase and examine how it feels - in other words you can find pause and awarness in and on the very pain you are being meant to feel . . .

Crusty Goldshark: Hi Angel

angelbabelily Coba: Hi

Crusty Goldshark: then pause

angelbabelily Coba: okay thank u

Crusty Goldshark: and you can clench body parts to release tension or talk loudly but all as a meditation

Adelene Dawner thinks that's unlikely to work for her - she's autistic, and poor to horrible at parsing body language at all.

Adelene Dawner: (at least, in this kin of situation... though.... hmmmmmmmm...)

Adelene Dawner: This may be one of those times where it's worth it to drop word-parsing and pick up body language instead. In theory, I can do that, but I've had very little practice...

Adelene Dawner: Can't hurt, I bet.

PaB Listener Master: Removing "angelbabelily Coba" from list.

Crusty Goldshark: One simple body language technique is just slowing you body and speech by 50 %

Adelene Dawner: That isn't useful if I'm not saying or doing anything.

Crusty Goldshark: Ah - then you should be mirroring beaviour as part of your response

Crusty Goldshark: You are not reflecting their behaviour - so they can do what they want . . .

Adelene Dawner: Interesting thought, Crusty.

Crusty Goldshark: You should be repeating their words and behaviour

Crusty Goldshark: If I was getting angry and someonewas just being passive What would happen? I would continue but if they copy my behaviour what might happen?

Adelene Dawner nods.

Adelene Dawner ponders.

Adelene Dawner: This has the potential to be *very* interesting.

Crusty Goldshark: There is an NLP technique called attunement - you copy and mirror - this allows synching - then you lead and because you are in synch the other person follows . . .

Crusty Goldshark: hi

Kirkra Caerndow: Greetings

Nostrum Forder: Hey!

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Nostrum

Adelene Dawner: As I implied earlier, I do often have to choose between different kinds of awareness. The upside to that situation is that whatever kind of awareness I'm using tends to be a lot more detailed than it is for most people. I notice things that others don't... even the word 'can't' would be accurate there.

Adelene Dawner: This has interesting results, when I go to use the information... especially since I don't know what it's normal for others to see, and what's unusual.

Adelene Dawner: Risky, though, turning auditory processingoff to try it.

Crusty Goldshark: You are playing with your inner responses and landscape - this is why this is a potential gem practice

Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^.^

Crusty Goldshark: I wish you sucess in finding a solution to more meaning ful communication

Kotoshima Haiku: lol.

Adelene Dawner: thanks :)

stevenaia Michinaga: welcome Kotoshima, ahve you been here before?

Crusty Goldshark: bye for now :)

Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ;)

Kotoshima Haiku: nope

stevenaia Michinaga: bye Crusty

Adelene Dawner: :)

Kotoshima Haiku: i'm new.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: G'night Crusyt.

stevenaia Michinaga: let me IM you some background info

PaB Listener Master: Removing "Crusty Goldshark" from list.

stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps we should close the log for the evening.....

Kotoshima Haiku: brb

Adelene Dawner: Sounds like a plan Steve.

stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for your purr and fur :)

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

stevenaia Michinaga: nice to meet you Kirkra

Kirkra Caerndow: And nice to meet you as well!