2008.12.07 07:00 - Science Squeezed Mind

Adams Rubble was guardian and is responsible for the comments

I arrived first and spent a few minutes by myself until joined by Solobill

Adams Rubble: Hello Bill :)
Solobill Laville: Good morning, Adams! How are you?
Adams Rubble: I am good. How about you?
Solobill Laville: Can't complain! Actually I could gloat a bit- was going to work this morning but the CD I brought home with work data won't work!
Solobill Laville: So I can be here sipping coffee!
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: I must stop using flash drives
Solobill Laville: Flash are easier though, why stop (I had about 650 Megs so CD....)
Adams Rubble: I was making a joke that my work is home with me :)
Solobill Laville: AH! hehe

I had asked Bill to talk to me about his experiences for the Chronicles

Solobill Laville: How goes that 6-months project?
Adams Rubble: A little slow, it is a best fourth on my priority list unfortunately
Adams Rubble: Hopefully that will change soon
Adams Rubble: I have a huge work project close to being finished, the exhibit, another work project waiting and then the Chronicles :)
Solobill Laville: :) No idle hands for you!
Adams Rubble: No it seems not
Adams Rubble: The 15 minutes stops have seemed to give me an energy that I did not have before
Solobill Laville: That is wonderful!
Adams Rubble: Yes, otherwise things have been slow but I had an interesting "vision" two nights ago
Solobill Laville: Ooh...

I just can't help myself. I start to recount my recent "vision"

Adams Rubble: I was thinking about Being, trying to understand it, right on waking up
Adams Rubble: so I was in half sleep, half awake mode
Adams Rubble: I began thinking about human relationships

Crusty joins us. Crusty later told us he was having trouble with his keyboard which later led to some cunfusuion on my part

Adams Rubble: I began to see these ugly shapes, kind of like the exterior of tunnels, very ugly, with entrances at each end
Adams Rubble: In the distance was a path brightly covered in light
Solobill Laville: HI, Crusty!
Adams Rubble: Hi Crusty
Solobill Laville: Wow, Adams
Crusty Goldshark: i ys
Adams Rubble: These things all sort of led in the direction of the path but did not connect
Adams Rubble: There was a huge pile of them, all ugly

Fael is next to arrive and it is the four of us for the rest of the session. I point Crusty and Fael to my blog to fill them in about my vision

Adams Rubble: Somehow that is related to how I have been spending my time and also to space and also to what Pema is talking about starting at the end
Fael Illyar: Hi Adams, Cursty, Solo :)
Crusty Goldshark: fal
Adams Rubble: Hi Fael :)
Solobill Laville: Heya, Fael!
Adams Rubble: I am talking about a vision I had two mornings ago
Crusty Goldshark: I mean Hi Fael
Crusty Goldshark: Stiff keyboard
Adams Rubble: It is in my blog http://rubblebornthoughts.wordpress.com
Solobill Laville: What do you intuit about it, Adams?
Adams Rubble: It is titled Confoundingly Ugly (#176) and it is number #1 that day
Adams Rubble: Well, Bill :)
Adams Rubble: That is the interesting thing
Adams Rubble: I know I do not want to go back into them :)
Fael Illyar: It's a shame we can't take snapshots of visions :)
Adams Rubble: That I would like to stay in the big space and go right to the bright light
Adams Rubble: I thought about drawing it but haven't gotten around to it, Fael
Adams Rubble: But I am not sure when what exactly they mean but that I need to be more observant
Solobill Laville nods
Solobill Laville: Veddy eenterestink... :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Faenik loves wells!

The appearance of Faenik brings out a response from Bill and myself

Adams Rubble notices Faenik is back with Fael
Faenik beams happily.
Faenik giggles. that tickles.
Solobill Laville: Fael, I wanted to mention there is a recent wiki chat log post
Solobill Laville: I think it is Quen's
Solobill Laville: With your picture stting here in the playgoda
Solobill Laville: It is truly stunning
Solobill Laville: Looks the poster of a movie
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you.'
Adams Rubble: I talked a bit too much. Does anyone have anything they would like to report about the 9-seconds or anything they would like to talk about?
Adams Rubble looks around
Solobill Laville: I was hoping you'd talk more, actually...
Fael Illyar slightly afk catching up with Adams's blog
Adams Rubble: I am not sure I can say much more at this point. I think it is an important insight for me
Solobill Laville: OK :)
Adams Rubble: It seems that I know on some level that I can go around these things, that I don't have to wallow in the mud
Solobill Laville: Ah, so perhaps this is a pointer, or encourager, in a way?
Adams Rubble: That is what I think, today
Solobill Laville nods
Adams Rubble: But it is a bit frustrating that I do not see clearly which is the way around and which is the way through another one of these things :)

Fael changes outfits

Solobill Laville: Yep, that's it Fael!
Fael Illyar: perhaps it was this outfit?
Faenik: indeed?
Solobill Laville: (I just looked and couldn't quickly find the page, so I gave up for the moment)
Crusty Goldshark: I was wondering if people consder themselves on a path and what t is?
Adams Rubble: I pretty much described it to you Bill
Crusty Goldshark: Adams seems t be into Zen?
Adams Rubble: I had more thoughts about the "path" yesterday while out walking
Fael Illyar: perhaps some of the mud is trying to understand things?

I missed that comment by Fael. Yes, there is always that

Adams Rubble: I am not a Buddhist Crusty; I don't know enough to be one
Crusty Goldshark: If yo work towards knowing Nthng you will be don well . . .

I now see I also had missed that last comment by Crusty which confused me some later

Adams Rubble: I think life is a little like a liesurely walk through the woods. It is imprtant to dwell on the moment and try to see as much as one can
Solobill Laville: I consider myself a Buddhist, yes Zen, but after a lot of refletion don't think of THAT as a path, that is a tool, amongst many tools :)
Fael Illyar: I think we need to a way to make a difference between knowing and ... umm ... merely remembering.
Adams Rubble: please say more Fael
Solobill Laville: Yup!

As happened a few times later we have two people explaining different things simultaenously which works thanks to chat. Bill seems to be following along while I am getting lost. Crusty explains his practice while Fael discusses "knowing"

Crusty Goldshark: Well I identify most stronly with Yinyana Bddhism
Faenik: ah :)
Adams Rubble doesn't know anything about Yinyana Buddhism
Fael Illyar: There's knowing and ... Knowing I suppose :)
Fael Illyar: one of which could be more accurately described as believing and refusing other possibilities.
Crusty Goldshark: It uses elements od Sufism, ateism, science and humour - chantin s the main practice
Fael Illyar: other would be knowing but not being attached to it being so.
Adams Rubble listening to fael
Fael Illyar: I take it that it's this first type of knowing you're speaking against, Crusty?
Crusty Goldshark: me oo :)
Crusty Goldshark: too
Adams Rubble: Crusty is that related to one of the more known schools of Buddhism
Adams Rubble is embarassed...known to me?
Crusty Goldshark: No it is reaed to the Metriya - future Buddhism
Crusty Goldshark: Must o get anohe keyboard - will be back soon
Adams Rubble very interested
Solobill Laville: ok, Crusty
Faenik: 㠪る㠻㠩^^
Solobill Laville: I'd like to hear Crusty's response to you Fael, but I think you described what he meant very eloquently (I assume anyway)
Crusty Goldshark: new keyboard arrives - now only me and bad spelling
Solobill Laville: yay!
Crusty Goldshark: :)
Solobill Laville: so far so good!
Adams Rubble: :)

With Crusty's new keyboard, the conversation resumes in earnest

Crusty Goldshark: Well Yinyana starts from the point of Knowing and works back to the near shore . . .
Solobill Laville: Crusty, could you expand on the idea of "work towards knowing nothing"?
Solobill Laville: (sorry, go ahead...)
Crusty Goldshark: Sure. Most people think of knowledge as knowing something - but Knowing is more about presence and being without an object that is known . . .
Solobill Laville nods
Crusty Goldshark: So it is experiential
Solobill Laville nods again
Crusty Goldshark: I am in the Presence of God or I am in the Void are part of the same experience - both are a Knowing
Solobill Laville: Sounds like that jibes with your comments, Fael?
Crusty Goldshark: In Sufism the absence of God is known as Fana-Il-Fana
Crusty Goldshark: In Yinyan it is known as the absence of Cod - No Cod and there is no need to fish :)
Solobill Laville: hehe
Crusty Goldshark: But some may catch on . .
Solobill Laville: Is Fana-Il-Fana an absence of God as a being?
Solobill Laville: or "Godhead"?
Solobill Laville: (is ignorant of Sufism)
Fael Illyar: Yes, solo, that sounds like it jibes
Adams Rubble is ignorant of all of this
Crusty Goldshark: It literally means the annihilation of Inhilation - in effect God (who we are annihilated in becomes annihlated) - it might roughly speaking be seen as a positive expression of the Dark Knight (sic) of the Sole (sic)
Solobill Laville: ok, thanks
Crusty Goldshark: It is where Batman becomes a joker
Solobill Laville: v..o..i..d...
Faenik: 㠪る㠻㠩^^
Solobill Laville: ?
Crusty Goldshark: Void as Presence and absence become meaningless
Solobill Laville: OK, yes, I meant in the coffeehouse sense of pointing at my navel :)
Solobill Laville: (e.g. in words)
Crusty Goldshark: It is as if Richard Dawkins describing himself as an atheistic theist - two things - paradox as one - the science squeezed mind can not encompass it . . .
Solobill Laville wonders if he actually may be just that...
Adams Rubble: science squeezed mind?

That phrase becomes the title

Solobill Laville: I mean Richard Dawkins
Fael Illyar confesses that what just went on went right over her head.
Crusty Goldshark: A mind that can only encompass no paradox
Adams Rubble: ah
Solobill Laville: Richard Dawkins is the "voice of Atheism" (my words)
Solobill Laville: BUt may use science as his religion (again my words)
Crusty Goldshark: Yes but he is a very limited thinker - he takes on Xtians and genuine mystics ignore his pretensions
Fael Illyar: Xtians?
Solobill Laville: Genuine mystics could probably care less! :)
Adams Rubble: Christians
Fael Illyar is seeing lots of words flying around she's uncertain of
Crusty Goldshark: I agree with 95% of what he says - after all he is devoted to truth and reality and Xtians are easy targets
Solobill Laville: Xtians = Christians, maybe we should slow down and define some of this stuff.. :)
Adams Rubble hides her earrings
Fael Illyar: Yes, most of what he says is pretty well put.
Crusty Goldshark: Sorry :(
Faenik: 㠪る㠻㠩^^
Solobill Laville: WIth Dawkins, Adams, it isn't so much about Christianity
Solobill Laville: BUt more about him spinning the idea of "proof" around, and then calling "faith" for really what it is - a leap
Solobill Laville: imho
Adams Rubble: :)
Crusty Goldshark: Presence, awareness, reality, these things are experiential - they are not for analysis because frequently the only way to describe them is with metaphore and obliquely
Adams Rubble: yes
Crusty Goldshark: So for example you have a vision Adam, this is real and relevant even if it relates only to your inner landscape - it may have profound import for you . . .
Adams Rubble: yes...and not for anyone else
Adams Rubble: But someone else may be interested in what I am experiening...or not
Crusty Goldshark: It is experientail and has value - it is what works for people that makes Yinyana pragmatic rather than traditional
Crusty Goldshark: Yes Indeed Adam
Crusty Goldshark: Adams - sorry
Adams Rubble: :)
Solobill Laville: I don't know much about VInyana, but it sounds like it is on the more "practical" end of the Buddhist scale, similar to Zen in that regard
Solobill Laville: thanks for the info, Crusty
Adams Rubble agrees with Solobill, thanks
Crusty Goldshark: And if many people are at the stage of being comforted by a fantasy - it is unkind to challenge this above their capacity to deal with it . . . - this is where wisdom comes in - Dawkins is not Wise
Crusty Goldshark: Your welcome - there is a website or wiki siomewhere
Solobill Laville: (found it)
Adams Rubble crosses Dawkins off the list for the role of wise man in the Christmas pageant
Crusty Goldshark: :)
Fael Illyar thought Dawkins is doing that not so much because he wants to educate christians but wants to prevent others from falling into fantasies.
Crusty Goldshark: He is a nice enough person and on the whole a positive influence
Solobill Laville: http://tmxxine.com/y/wikka.php?wakka=FormalPractice
Solobill Laville: hehe Adams
Fael Illyar: reaction to all kinds of christianity based organizations pushing their own agenda forward strongly.
Crusty Goldshark: Yes they are very forthright - armed and dangerous - just don't give atheists guns . . .
Faenik: could be
Solobill Laville: I think he is calling some religious practicioners, regardless of the religion, out on their "fact-based" assertions
Crusty Goldshark: Some are so angry . . .
Adams Rubble: We touched on this a few days ago. There is a differences between believing in things and pushing them on to others
Crusty Goldshark: Indeed
Solobill Laville: yes!
Faenik: 㠪る㠻㠩^^
Crusty Goldshark: YinYana is faithless - we do not accept reincarnation as anything but an unverified fantasy - we also set up our computers as shrines
Solobill Laville: I think a role of Dawkins is also to strengthen some people's faith, and in regognition that it IS faith
Solobill Laville notes the second image on the website mentioned above ;)

"Worship" slips into the conversation; some of us think it would be a great topic for a session

Crusty Goldshark: So we will worship practically anything - even Richard Dawkins and any spare speghetti monsters . . .
Adams Rubble: :)
Crusty Goldshark: Again worship is a process - the object of worship is dependent on the understanding of the practioner
Faenik: ah :)
Adams Rubble: Worship would be an interesting topic for a general discussion
Solobill Laville: yes it would
Crusty Goldshark: So I might worship my hat but only if I am not wearing it . . .
Fael Illyar: yes, true
Fael Illyar smiles.
Adams Rubble: "Do we have a need to worship?" for one
Fael Illyar: what is worship?
Crusty Goldshark: Some do. I do. Not all
Faenik: indeed?
Fael Illyar honestly doesn't know what it is.
Solobill Laville: Worship is different, to different folks, and in different situations (to Fael's point)
Crusty Goldshark: Worship is a form of puja, prayer, adoration of an Ideal or idealisation
Adams Rubble: Fael, the answer is no for you then :)
Solobill Laville: So, by that definition, appreciation or awareness is not worship
Solobill Laville: Worship requires an object, I mean
Crusty Goldshark: I would say yes Solobill
Adams Rubble agrees with Crusty
Crusty Goldshark: Yes it does - or an abstaction, idea etc
Solobill Laville: I would say, by a traditional definition of worship (which we haven't defined)
Solobill Laville: that Awareness is not worship (forget about appreciation for the moment) :)
Crusty Goldshark: Well we do not have to worship tradition . . .
Adams Rubble apologises for bringing up such a big topic at the end of a session
Crusty Goldshark: Awareness is not worship
Solobill Laville: hehe, yeah, good one, Adams.... ;)
Solobill Laville: Worship - To Be Continued...
Adams Rubble: :)
Crusty Goldshark: for example in the Buddhist practice of Metta Bhavna we may express Metta (compassion) but it is usually towards an object it might be described as worshp - it might not - just words
Solobill Laville: mm hmm
Solobill Laville: I think there is a traditional definition of worship that we could use and probably all agree on...
Crusty Goldshark: Another time for me - time to go worship my hat - once removed
Crusty Goldshark: CU guys
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: Bye, Crusty
Adams Rubble: bye Crusty. thanks
Fael Illyar: See you later Crusty :)
Crusty Goldshark: :)
Solobill Laville: Keyboard aproved!!
Adams Rubble: yes!
Fael Illyar smiles.
Adams Rubble: Well, interesting session
Solobill Laville: Yes!
Adams Rubble: I am afraid I must go too
Fael Illyar: See you later Adams :)
Solobill Laville: Yes, me as well, tree decorating day here! :)
Adams Rubble: It was great to see you both :)
Fael Illyar: See you later Solo :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, you too :)
Adams Rubble: hehe Bill. me too (didn;t want to say)
Solobill Laville: lol
Solobill Laville: why?? :)
Solobill Laville: and put those earrings back on!! :))
Adams Rubble: Just seemed a frivolous reason to go
Adams Rubble: hehe
Fael Illyar: what's with removing them by the way?
Adams Rubble: bye Fael and Bill :)
Solobill Laville: bye, adams
Fael Illyar waves.